A rant: Vet won't spay

[CorvusCorax]

Oh here we go, the 'you are spaying for your own convenience' brigade again .

Nope. I spay for my bitches' benefit.

Who said that?! I've had spayed and neutered dogs in the past, I just don't personally need to with the dogs I have at the moment. Each to their own, it's an interesting debate.

 

[windand rain]

Oh here we go, the 'you are spaying for your own convenience' brigade again .

Nope. I spay for my bitches' benefit.

At what age and why given the huge risk to their health but I would hope you know your breed and have researched their risk completely. I have bitches that are at huge risk by being spayed so for my girls health I don't and won't spay unless medically necessary

 

[Birker2020]

That’s a heartbreaking video Birker ?

Yes it is. Sorry. I just think its one thing going on about kill shelters, another actually seeing what they do.
Until you see something like that I don't think you appreciate it. Yes we know dogs die in kill shelters but we don't stop to think how or why. x

 

[SOS]

Just adding another post to say there ARE negative effects to neutering but I have seen many bitches dead/dying/go through torture with a pyo that I would advise spaying for health reasons and ultimately convenience. It’s a case of having to way up your dogs lifestyle and health.

That said my own dog is over a year, and she is entire. She will be until atleast 18 months, maybe two years old as early neutering can lead to urinary incontinence in bitches later in life.

Yes vets do push neutering - if it was to be money grabbing they’d not advise, just wait for the pyo’s, mammary strips etc. To come in and earn 10x as much for those. They push neutering as whilst you might be a responsible owner the majority aren’t that responsible. A few quotes I’ve heard over the years (may be stereotyped slightly!):
“What do you mean the bitch can’t have babies with her dad? They are both KC registered”
“Ewww I didn’t think they would mate as they are siblings”
“She was off the lead and a dog caught her”
“He was off the lead and caught a bitch”
“I don’t want to castrate as want to keep him mean”
“I like it when she’s in season and needy to me, I’d hate for that to change” - An owner with a bitch with a terrible PYO who didn’t want to go for surgery. Dog died.
“My mate had a dog so we’ve decided to breed her and make Labra-Pom-chi-poo-weillers.”

 

[twiggy2]

Find a vet that will. 1 in 3 bitches will get pyometra in their life. It can be fatal if unrecognised and at best leads to an emergency neuter on a sick animal.

At best a pyo is an open one and treated with a course of antibiotics, it can be fatal yes but one in three seems a bit of a high ration and I would love to see the report that states that.

I don't call having 17K dogs a year pts in this country as irrelevant to be honest. But still.
And if this new idea of not spaying takes off in America there will be even more in kill shelters.

What happens in American kill shelters has no relevance on what happens in the UK

this is not a criticism, I am genuinely asking a question here. But does this mean you cannot let him off the lead in the park or other open space in the off chance he could mate with an unspayed bitch? Or do you have enough land that you don't need to take him places?

I think that the hassle of having to watch a dog all the time and the consequences if you took your eye of the ball wouldn't be worth all the stress.

Does having a male dog unneutered give it more 'sparkle' like a stallion horse? Again I'm not trying to be smart, it's a genuine question. Surely there is no risk in having a dog neutered, its a relatively safe thing to do isn't it?

Are police dogs neutered? Does it make them more 'keen' on their job or hunting quarry if they remained untouched?

We have one neutered bitch, 4 uneutered bitches and 4 u nentered dogs, we don't have accidental litters.
Our dogs do at times and not all together get out with us for a day or a holiday as I feel its good for them to experience things other than where we live especially when they are young. 2 of the dogs have been used and all of our dogs will leave a bitch when told so don't need to be kept on lead but I would not leave them loose with and in season bitch.
Our digs don't fight we have a dog and bitch that the rest have most respect for and it all works
If we neutered and the dog or bitch turns out to excel at their job as well as being a nice dog to have around we cannot breed them and keep the next pup.
Many studies support late neutering or leaving entire for behaviour reasons as well as health and physical.
I am with the vet who questions why people neuter and makes the owner give it serious thought, not the one who refuses though.
A vet I worked for for over 30 years was against castration unless there were medical risks to leaving the dog entire so he did not castrate his own routinely bit would always do clients if requested.

 

[Rowreach]

Most rescues insist all dogs are neutered before rehoming. You can see why.
We still have dog licences in NI and there's a price incentive for neutering (a licence for a neutered dog is a fiver as opposed to £15).

 

[SOS]

twiggy2, here’s the report you’d love to see:

https://bmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1746-6148-10-6

This one states one in four. A quick google finds many others.

If you’ve worked with vets you will know that anecdotal evidence doesn’t always represent the population. I support later neutering and even entire animals in responsible owners hands but unfortunately they are few and far between and those that aren’t are definitely not on forums dedicated to animals.

 

[twiggy2]

Find a vet that will. 1 in 3 bitches will get pyometra in their life. It can be fatal if unrecognised and at best leads to an emergency neuter on a sick animal.

At best a pyo is an open one and treated with a course of antibiotics, it can be fatal yes but one in three seems a bit of a high ration and I would love to see the report that states that.

I don't call having 17K dogs a year pts in this country as irrelevant to be honest. But still.
And if this new idea of not spaying takes off in America there will be even more in kill shelters.

What happens in American kill shelters has no relevance on what happens in the UK

this is not a criticism, I am genuinely asking a question here. But does this mean you cannot let him off the lead in the park or other open space in the off chance he could mate with an unspayed bitch? Or do you have enough land that you don't need to take him places?

I think that the hassle of having to watch a dog all the time and the consequences if you took your eye of the ball wouldn't be worth all the stress.

Does having a male dog unneutered give it more 'sparkle' like a stallion horse? Again I'm not trying to be smart, it's a genuine question. Surely there is no risk in having a dog neutered, its a relatively safe thing to do isn't it?

Are police dogs neutered? Does it make them more 'keen' on their job or hunting quarry if they remained untouched?

We have one neutered bitch, 4 uneutered bitches and 4 u nentered dogs, we don't have accidental litters.
Our dogs do at times and not all together get out with us for a day or a holiday as I feel its good for them to experience things other than where

 

[twiggy2]

twiggy2, here’s the report you’d love to see:

https://bmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1746-6148-10-6

This one states one in four. A quick google finds many others.

If you’ve worked with vets you will know that anecdotal evidence doesn’t always represent the population. I support later neutering and even entire animals in responsible owners hands but unfortunately they are few and far between and those that aren’t are definitely not on forums dedicated to animals.

The studies are always difficult as its tricky to find the true number of animals in any group as may never go to a vets especially pre chipping (which the study is) i belive that dog ownership in Germany is different to the UK too and that's one of their methods are ahead of the times.
We have 8 collies 4 of whom have never been to a vets (they are not mine), mine had had early vaccine and chips and thats it.
I agree owners that can cope with entire dogs (may are still responsible) are in the minority it was that attitude (not yours) in the replies that the vet was stupid for their opinion that gets me enough to make me respond.
There are pros and cons to neutering and I just wish owners would educate themselves to them and make a decision that works for them rather than just blindly neuter.

 

[stangs]

I’m not particularly educated on the topic, but why is there so much controversy about spaying females and so little in comparison about neutering males?

 

[Clodagh]

I’m not particularly educated on the topic, but why is there so much controversy about spaying females and so little in comparison about neutering males?

People certainly get very worked up about it!

 

[I'm Dun]

this is not a criticism, I am genuinely asking a question here. But does this mean you cannot let him off the lead in the park or other open space in the off chance he could mate with an unspayed bitch? Or do you have enough land that you don't need to take him places?

Mine is off lead a lot of the time when we are out. Hes 11. Hes never randomly found an unspayed in season bitch and mated with her. I cant imagine a scenario where we would just randomly come across an in season and receptive bitch with absolutely no warning.

Does having a male dog unneutered give it more 'sparkle' like a stallion horse? Again I'm not trying to be smart, it's a genuine question. Surely there is no risk in having a dog neutered, its a relatively safe thing to do isn't it?

Are police dogs neutered? Does it make them more 'keen' on their job or hunting quarry if they remained untouched?

They possibly do have a bit more sparkle, in my breed anecdotally they work better as entires. He wasnt done as the huge drop in hormones was a concern that it might trigger a relapse in behaviours we'd worked very hard to get over when I first got him.

I dont neuter male dogs, but do spay bitches at about 2 to 3. And yes it is for my convenience. I dont want the hassle of managing bitches in season.

 

[blackcob]

I’m not particularly educated on the topic, but why is there so much controversy about spaying females and so little in comparison about neutering males?

I had always thought it the other way around tbh, the potential health benefits for neutering bitches arguably being more clear cut than for neutering males - thinking of the incidence and potential outcomes of pyometra, mammary tumours etc. vs. that of testicular cancers, benign prostatic hyperplasia etc.

At least a small part of my choice in having a male dog last time round was that I didn't want to have to wrestle with the decision on when to spay or to have to manage a bitch in season, probably fair to call that a decision of convenience.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Possibly a dumb question, but why do people feel it difficult to manage a bitch in season?

 

[CorvusCorax]

I had always thought it the other way around tbh, the potential health benefits for neutering bitches arguably being more clear cut than for neutering males - thinking of the incidence and potential outcomes of pyometra, mammary tumours etc. vs. that of testicular cancers, benign prostatic hyperplasia etc.

I agree. And fellas get very het up about it

My old trainer used to rant that you wouldn't whip a dog's kidney out, etc etc etc....spent a lot of time in Germany, ho hum!!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Possibly a dumb question, but why do people feel it difficult to manage a bitch in season?

Can make competing difficult (have to get a jab or train and go in after everyone else).
I have two entire males and there are two weeks of mournful howling and bitching in the garden, but I am used to doing everything x3 anyway as the two males don't get on.
Also have to be careful where and when you walk/be mindful of other people's males.

 

[blackcob]

Possibly a dumb question, but why do people feel it difficult to manage a bitch in season?

Personally it's not that I thought it would be difficult, just that it could be costly or inconvenient - sod's law they'd come in early or have a phantom when you've made plans, booked holiday and dropped £££ on a show/training/competition trip.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Can make competing difficult (have to get a jab or train and go in after everyone else).
I have two entire males and there are two weeks of mournful howling and bitching in the garden, but I am used to doing everything x3 anyway as the two males don't get on.
Also have to be careful where and when you walk/be mindful of other people's males.

Ah, well, I only have the one (bitch), so I don't have to deal with others...I mean, there's the cat but he doesn't give a toss ?

I also don't compete my dog because the things we'd compete in don't really exist around here.

Also, no one is careful here where and when you walk. Of course the bitch stays on a leash, and you give others plenty of space, but the mentality is that people should be able to control their dogs. A horsey neighbor claims that if people can control big stallions, they can control their dogs.

It doesn't effect me much because no one is out or out in the forest at the times we walk.

So I guess it depends on your setup.

 

[Clodagh]

My POV is all the bitches live in and I can’t cope with all the gloop. (Or choose not to, convenience again). And I work them and the shooting season is only 3/4 months long and as I run the bare minimum of dogs I need if one needs 3 weeks out I’m scuppered.
And I don’t want to breed, although I do get tempted! I’d hate to be responsible for all those little lives finding good homes.

ETA but not spaying doesn’t mean bitches randomly conceive either!

 

[WWO]

We, as a family don't routinely spay and would be delighted to find a vet practice that doesn't try to pressure the owners of bitches into spaying. I would be interested to read the studies your vet mentioned, OP.

Utter stupidity

 

[CorvusCorax]

Ah, well, I only have the one (bitch), so I don't have to deal with others...I mean, there's the cat but he doesn't give a toss ?

I also don't compete my dog because the things we'd compete in don't really exist around here.

Also, no one is careful here where and when you walk. Of course the bitch stays on a leash, and you give others plenty of space, but the mentality is that people should be able to control their dogs. A horsey neighbor claims that if people can control big stallions, they can control their dogs.

It doesn't effect me much because no one is out or out in the forest at the times we walk.

So I guess it depends on your setup.

Look, I'd live there tomorrow, but ageing parents and those bloody awful massive ticks.

 

[Boulty]

I think it's an interesting debate & there's pluses & minuses on both sides. Definitely would always wait until fully matured (IE a few years old in large breeds) to make sure growth plates closed as they should etc. Personally having seen countless dogs either die or nearly die due to pyo would always neuter a bitch. Dogs it's a bit less clear cut (that said mine will be done either for medical reasons (2 retained testicles that don't look like dropping) or for convenience as he's mostly walked by my mother who is a bit of an unobservant numpty at times & doesn't always make good choices about which dogs she lets him greet / would not be able to cope if they came across a bitch in heat & he was interested.... She admitted she let him hump a strange dog today on a walk (whilst on leash so God knows how) which I told her was very stupid if she likes him without added teeth marks. She refuses to take on board any information she's provided with if it comes from me & is refusing to engage with / attend / practice techniques from the puppy classes she asked me to sign her up for ? Sorry that I've hijacked your thread to moan about my mother as an example of why sometimes "convenience" can be an acceptable reason if the dog is handled by people who aren't good at reading dogs

 

[FestiveG]

Utter stupidity

Why do you say that?

 

[DabDab]

I don't really find bitches in season difficult to manage tbh. My older two were spayed 7 years ago when I had the young kelpie dog - I didn't want the risk of accidental breeding and they were mature (3&6 years) whereas he was not.

The young one has just finished her first season and I intend to have her spayed in a year or so. The risk of pyo is one reason, but also sadly the risk of theft and the risk of out of control dog surprising us on a walk. The bit of forest by my house where we walk is busy and constantly alive with the sounds of Labradors and spaniels crashing around in the undergrowth to randomly pop out at you. I also did have a slightly scary incident with Dee years ago when she was in season (before spay) with a Labrador mounting her. Fortunately she was by me and I managed to pull him off before he knotted, but it is a bit of a terrifying thing to happen when you have a bitch as small as my Dee.

Anyways, as much as I appreciate the medical pros and cons and would of course be glad for a vet to re-iterate those to me, I would be deeply pi55ed off if a vet refused to spay when I requested.

 

[Birker2020]

At best a pyo is an open one and treated with a course of antibiotics, it can be fatal yes but one in three seems a bit of a high ration and I would love to see the report that states that.



What happens in American kill shelters has no relevance on what happens in the UK



We have one neutered bitch, 4 uneutered bitches and 4 u nentered dogs, we don't have accidental litters.
Our dogs do at times and not all together get out with us for a day or a holiday as I feel its good for them to experience things other than where we live especially when they are young. 2 of the dogs have been used and all of our dogs will leave a bitch when told so don't need to be kept on lead but I would not leave them loose with and in season bitch.
Our digs don't fight we have a dog and bitch that the rest have most respect for and it all works
If we neutered and the dog or bitch turns out to excel at their job as well as being a nice dog to have around we cannot breed them and keep the next pup.
Many studies support late neutering or leaving entire for behaviour reasons as well as health and physical.
I am with the vet who questions why people neuter and makes the owner give it serious thought, not the one who refuses though.
A vet I worked for for over 30 years was against castration unless there were medical risks to leaving the dog entire so he did not castrate his own routinely bit would always do clients if requested.

When I say in this country (17,000 dogs are pts) I am talking of the UK not America. I've seen photos of bin bags opposite rows of kennels with the doors open, where the shelter staff have just gone from kennel to kennel putting to sleep the dogs. People don't think it happens here but of course it does, the UK is no exception. The figure I quoted of 17,000 admittedly was during one year a few years ago. It might be better now as people are better educated to make choices on whether to spay or not and monetary vet concessions are made for those who have limited income.

I showed the video to try to explain that the problem is even worse in the USA. If this idea of not spaying takes off in America it will mean there will be even more unwanted strays. You want to watch Animal Cops Houston or Miami and you will see how hoarders hoard dogs and none are ever spayed or neutered and allowed to run wild creating ten times the amount of dogs. Its the same in the UK but a smaller minority of people hoard pets. If I worked in a shelter I would find it very depressing.

I don't care if people spay or don't spay as long as they are responsible owners but what I was trying to say is that there is an awful lot of irresponsible dog owners about too who think it would be cute to have a load of wriggling puppies running around the place, they don't think about when they are older and issues rehoming them which is one of the reasons the shelters are over run.

 

[Clodagh]

The risk of pyo is one reason, but also sadly the risk of theft

That’s one I didn’t mention. It makes me feel that at least they can’t end up in a puppy farm.

 

[Birker2020]

It makes me feel that at least they can’t end up in a puppy farm.

I agree, although if they are being snatched as they are walked those employed to steal the dogs wouldn't know at the time. And then I dread to think what happens when they realise they are of no monetary value to them. We've had a few dog thefts in the Midlands area recently and its on the rise sadly.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Utter stupidity

How extremely rude! Are you of the opinion that German vets are stupid, too?

We have (mainly) Labs and have got the majority of them to over 12 with no health issues except those associated with old age, mainly arthritis. I have however rehomed spayed bitches who have developed other cancers, spay is not a magic wand to avoid cancers.
We have had a lot of dogs/bitches over the years and have found that entire Labs have been the healthiest.

ETA And no unwanted pups either

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

That’s one I didn’t mention. It makes me feel that at least they can’t end up in a puppy farm.

I very much doubt that a dog thief can tell a spayed bitch from an unspayed one at a glance. I would then be extremely worried about the ill-treatment meted out to a stolen-for-breeding bitch who was then found to have been spayed.

 

[ycbm]

Possibly a dumb question, but why do people feel it difficult to manage a bitch in season?

Because they bleed?
.