Accidental killing of foxes

FestiveSpirit

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I'm sure the charity your greyhounds came from would not be too pleased knowing that they are supposed to be retired yet still used for catching rabbits.
You are obviously upset that i stated 2x15 minute walks instead of 2x 20 minute walks and for that i apologise. Reallty quite petty dont you think.
I dont know if you realise that the greyhounds are actually trained to chase and kill, yes it is in their breeding but the actual training plays a huge part. So to make out its ok for them to be going round killing rabbits because its in their breeding is rubbish, I have been un learning what my greyhound has learned and it is going very well, we have a pet rabbit which she went beserk about when she first saw it but now she doesnt bat an eyelid at it while it is out in its run.

On a different note i would love to know how you taught your dogs recall mid chase? And how you taught them you find it ok for them to kill rabbits but not dogs and cats?

Some people just enjoy seeing things run for their life then die

Please read my original post properly. I clearly stated that my greyhounds sometimes come across rabbits during the course of their daily walks, and occasionally have been known to chase and kill them. This does not mean that I use my greyhounds for catching rabbits, it means they sometimes do - shock horror - if THEY wish to do so!!!!! I am extremely friendly with the rescue organisation where my dogs have all come from, and I am quite happy for you to contact them and tell them this happens if you like - PM me and I will give you their details :)

As for greyhounds having to be trained to chase and kill - rather than doing it by instinct - I am absolutely PMSL sitting at my desk here! I have had two show-bred whippets which had never seen a rabbit in their lives until they chased their first one through pure instinct... also my second greyhound has never been trained or raced as she did not grow large enough, so she was dumped in Ireland and was rescued as a starvation case. Yet strangely she still chases rabbits without any prompting from me/any other human/any other dog.

In addition I am not remotely "upset" by your responses, I merely pointed out that exercise OFF the lead is infinitely preferable for a greyhound, which is a sprinting dog and likes short bursts of intense activity rather than hours (or minutes) of plodding along on a lead.

I have not taught my dogs to return to me "mid-chase" as you suggest, I simply do not allow them to get into a position whereby they might chase little fluffies when I dont want them to. I have had sighthounds for the past 20 years now and have NEVER had an instance where they have chased a pet cat or dog, I ensure that I keep a watchful eye to prevent this situation happening.

As for some people enjoying "seeing things run for their life then die" then I will have to take your word on that, you obviously know far more than I on that matter :)
 

weebarney

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If you read my post correctly i said training plays a big part! not the only part! My greyhound does get off the lead to run yet she has never chased or killed anything while i've had her, i wonder where you have gone wrong in the instances yours have killed animals. Do you not have any problem with yourself allowing your dogs to course when the rabbits could well have young in their burrow who will slowly starve to death due to your actions?
Do you believe dogs bred for fighting should be allowed to fight? after all its their insinct as well! Should Peado's be freed from prison as that is their natural instinct to interfere with kids?

Sounds like this law will be brought in to control people like you who enjoy/encourage/allow their dogs to kill wildlife then plead its either natural or an accident and not aimed at the regular dog owner.

Its like when the hunting ban was coming in all we heard was tack shops would go out of business, farriers would lose their jobs, horses destroyed, none of these happened(no suprise their) oh please change the record.
 

weebarney

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Ah well to get back to the point why should it be illegal; for a dog to accidentally kill a wild mammal and not a car?

Shouldn't it be illegal to drive cars down roads that wild animals cross?

It is unfortunate when animals are killed by cars and i doubt if many people actually intend for their car to strike an animal. The problem is the people who are hell bent on killing animals with dogs and it is a very easy excuse to use,' sorry me lord it was an accident its in their breeding you see',
 

FestiveSpirit

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If you read my post correctly i said training plays a big part! not the only part! My greyhound does get off the lead to run yet she has never chased or killed anything while i've had her, i wonder where you have gone wrong in the instances yours have killed animals. Do you not have any problem with yourself allowing your dogs to course when the rabbits could well have young in their burrow who will slowly starve to death due to your actions?
Do you believe dogs bred for fighting should be allowed to fight? after all its their insinct as well! Should Peado's be freed from prison as that is their natural instinct to interfere with kids?

Sounds like this law will be brought in to control people like you who enjoy/encourage/allow their dogs to kill wildlife then plead its either natural or an accident and not aimed at the regular dog owner.

Its like when the hunting ban was coming in all we heard was tack shops would go out of business, farriers would lose their jobs, horses destroyed, none of these happened(no suprise their) oh please change the record.

Oh dear, I had hoped for a rational debate on this matter but this is obviously not going to happen so I shall not be responding further, thank you :)
 

FestiveSpirit

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Rational debate, i think you meant you would like me to back down and agree with you, well theres a shame.

No just to clarify for other readers, a rational debate means a debate with someone who does not appear to think that rabbits are all little fluffy bunnies called Flopsy, Mopsy, Cottontail and Peter :) Or a debate with someone who does not draw ridiculous comparisons to the killing of a rabbit by a greyhound to organised dog fighting.... :p
 

CAYLA

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What a mixed and strange debate, I have 6 lurchers, inc whippets, a bull x lurcher, deerhound, and they run free of their lead, they do not attack other dogs or cats and they will chase rabbits......and indeed, they can be recalled in mid chase :smirk:, of which I rarely do, because they rarely catch,(said rabbit, dissapears through fence) dog returns, I dont see this as a blood sport, as see it as me walking in order to exercise them, and them chasing as they naturally would, I did not go their for the intention of killing, but it a rabbit is killed, I wont go home and slit my wrists with guilt :crazy:

Dog fighting is no comparison to walking your dog, how can 2 dogs thrown into a pit, with no route of escape, to fight to the death, one dog can not "choose" to run/hide, and if one is exhausted or injured, it will still be on the recieving end of the dog still able to fight, it will then be dragged from the pit, and in most cases, electricuted, shot, stabbed or killed/disposed by the cheapest or easiest method.

I dont believe in placing a terrier down a hole or shooting an animal, this is not a fair fight/and gives no route of escape or chance to flee, surely doing this, is killing the strong and the ones that would survive given the chance of a fair get away, lamping is surely a fair way to allow the rabbit/hare to escape and is a test of whits and speed against 1 dog and 1 rabbit/hare/fox and gives the wild animal a fair chance of escape.

If I was given a choice of being thrown in a pit with someone wanting to kill me, a bullet in my head at close range or a chance to flee, I would choose the latter, atleast then I was given a chance and I may get away.
I also have to say, Im appauled with the suggestion of a dog recieving such inadequate exercise :crazy:, if people want their dog on a lead for whatever reason, aggression, chase instinct, bad recall, inexperience and lack of knowledge to train(that is fine) IMO not cruel......but whatever the reason, don't be lazy, a dog needs exercise and a descent amount at that, my dogs are out no less than 1 and a half hours a walk, at 3 walks a day, inc my 16 year old whippey x grey for 1 of the walks, so unless their is a medical reason/or dog is unable for any reason, there is no excuse for offering such inadequate exercise.
My akita never gets of the lead out in the open, she is walked for 3 hours in a daily period on her lead, I would deam myself a irrisponsible owner if I did not offer this exercise, me being lazy is not going to give her the exercise she needs :crazy:
It is very important to allow dogs to work off energy for welfare/mental and behavioural reasons.
 

weebarney

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all you need to do is google a few greyhound rescue organisations and check out what they recommend as far as length of time being exercised goes, i think you will be in for a shock as its definately not hours per day!

I dont understand why some people want to shy away from the whole dog fighting issue, or maybe i do. If its ok to go around letting your dog kill animals due to its breed and instinct then how is it bad letting a pair of dogs fight who have been bred for and have instinct to fight.
 

lastrebel

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{Quote} as i have said before the whole point of foxhunting was to kill foxes and the use of terriers was an important tool to that end , if the farmer wanted the fox killed . if it was a healthy fox or a scabby old thing and the farmer wants it dead and its gone to ground then what else would you use , cymag ???

intresting most of your fellow hunters have been telling me the killing of the fox is a side dish.
 

lastrebel

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{Quote}Dog fighting is no comparison to walking your dog, how can 2 dogs thrown into a pit, with no route of escape, to fight to the death, one dog can not "choose" to run/hide, and if one is exhausted or injured, it will still be on the recieving end of the dog still able to fight, it will then be dragged from the pit, and in most cases, electricuted, shot, stabbed or killed/disposed by the cheapest or easiest method.

Ok so the difference between dog fighting and fox hunting is ???
 

CAYLA

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A fox can RUN!, surely not all foxes are caught? im very sure all dog fights are fought, as like I said, there is no escape route.

Im not saying I agree with all methods of killing animals, but I would rather an animal have a fair chance, i.e to do what comes natural and FLEE, a dog can not do this locked in a pit :crazy:
 

CAYLA

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all you need to do is google a few greyhound rescue organisations and check out what they recommend as far as length of time being exercised goes, i think you will be in for a shock as its definately not hours per day!

I dont understand why some people want to shy away from the whole dog fighting issue, or maybe i do. If its ok to go around letting your dog kill animals due to its breed and instinct then how is it bad letting a pair of dogs fight who have been bred for and have instinct to fight.

We are a greyhound rescue :) and we would not rehome into a home that can only give 2 x 15 min walks, unless the dog was decrepit or had serious health issues :)

Re the fighting, again, I dont intentionally go out to course rabbits or place dogs in pits to fight :crazy: I go to exercise my dogs, if it makes u feel better, I would not put my dog in a pen with a rabbit for the fun of it, for it to injure or kill, with no ESCAPE for the rabbit, in a field the rabbit can run and more often than not, GET AWAY :)
 

Hebegebe

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intresting most of your fellow hunters have been telling me the killing of the fox is a side dish.

Fox hunting has different purposes depending on who you are. n It also has more than one purpose and function. Something antis fail to understand.

In my experience antis are generally not very intelligent.
 

Hebegebe

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Ok so the difference between dog fighting and fox hunting is ???

Fox hunting uses dogs to locate and cxatch foxes and when they are located and caught to kill them by a very quick method.

With dog fighting/badger baiting etc the animal has already been caught and they are then set on eachother in a pit. The odds are made fairly equal in order to extend the fight.

If dog fighting were like fox hunting then once the fox had been dug/flushed out it would not be shot but put in a bag. They would then use a breed of dog with roughly the same fighting capacity as a fox and place the two in a pit and watch them fight and place bets on them.
 

Scratchline

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I dont understand why some people want to shy away from the whole dog fighting issue, or maybe i do. If its ok to go around letting your dog kill animals due to its breed and instinct then how is it bad letting a pair of dogs fight who have been bred for and have instinct to fight.

Agree 100% with the above! At least in dog fighting "both", animals are bred, trained and choose ( when in the pit ), to either fight or not. Agreed it is their instinct as is used as an excuse by other breed owners on here for allowing their own dogs to attack others. Wehther that be fox, rabbit or rat.

The reason as we both know why people on here choose to try and seperate themselves from it is because it is cruel, horrible to see and is about mans desire to achieve something not animal welfare. Its like a mirror to them and they cannot cope with seeing the reflection.
 

Hebegebe

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So why do you think walking a dog off the lead is akin to dog fighting?

I'm really curious to know.

I never put my dogs on the lead.

Maybe I should dig out a few badgers and stick them in a pit with them?

If it isn't any more cruel why not?
 

Hebegebe

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The other thing I don't get and to bring us back to the original point of the thread is why you think a wild mammal being accidentally killed by someone talking a dog out for a walk is akin to dog fighting and yet you seem to have no qualms about the million or so wild mammals accidentally killed by taking a car for a drive.

You talk about animal welfare but surely driving large chunks of metal at speed into our wildlife, often merely wounding them and leading to an agonising death causes more distress?

Could it be that that is something which we all do so you are loathe to criticise it?
 

Scratchline

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Dog fighting is no comparison to walking your dog, how can 2 dogs thrown into a pit, with no route of escape, to fight to the death, one dog can not "choose" to run/hide, and if one is exhausted or injured, it will still be on the recieving end of the dog still able to fight, it will then be dragged from the pit, and in most cases, electricuted, shot, stabbed or killed/disposed by the cheapest or easiest method.

With the greatest respect I made it clear we were not talking about " Red Top Newspaper Dogfights", which are sensationalistic, nonesensicle rubbish. Two dogs, at the peak of physical and mental well being. Bred for gameness, valued, loved and admired by their owners. Allowed fighting contact in a test of gameness strictly governed by rules which protect the animals.

Tha damage inflicted ONLY of the excact nature suffered by terriers allowed to bait foxes. There is no difference whatsoever and other than the fact that the fox is fighting for its life. Pit dogs and digging terriers enjoy the fight!!!

Diging is far more cruel therefore form an animals viewpoint.
 

Scratchline

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A fox can RUN!, surely not all foxes are caught? im very sure all dog fights are fought, as like I said, there is no escape route.

Again, with the greatest respect you obviously no nothing about dog fighting. What is a "Scratchline", and what is it for?
 

Scratchline

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So why do you think walking a dog off the lead is akin to dog fighting?

I dont bud. The whole point of the dog fighting was to show how the use of terriers to dig out foxes ( which had cropped up in this discussion), was far worse. It involves the same cruelty to both parties but again, one is trained and one is a terrified wild animal. It sickens me to my stomach.

But, comparing dog fighting to killikg other animals it really is one trained and one just fighting for its life because man has allowed his dogs a chance to kill it.

Maybe I should dig out a few badgers and stick them in a pit with them?

Why even say that? You dont mean it and if you want to test your dogs come roll them with mine. At least my dogs would be up for it and a badger just plain terrified. Let me know and I will put the kettle on :eek:)

I cannot say fairer than that. And my guess is, all of a sudden you may not be thinking it is a great idea? lol
 

Hebegebe

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Tha damage inflicted ONLY of the excact nature suffered by terriers allowed to bait foxes.

I'd be the first to admit that I know little about dog fighting or digging out. However are we not talking the difference between 'hard' and 'soft' terriers here and the use of terriers to flush a fox verses the use of a terrier to fight a fox?

Moreover the use of terriers below ground is permitted by the Hunting Act. If that is the part of fox hunting you object to then that seems rather ironic.
 

Hebegebe

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I don't think it is a great idea.

I was pointing out that letting my dogs chase a few squirrels is not akin to badger baiting or dog fighting IMO.
 

Scratchline

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The other thing I don't get and to bring us back to the original point of the thread is why you think a wild mammal being accidentally killed by someone talking a dog out for a walk is akin to dog fighting and yet you seem to have no qualms about the million or so wild mammals accidentally killed by taking a car for a drive.

You talk about animal welfare but surely driving large chunks of metal at speed into our wildlife, often merely wounding them and leading to an agonising death causes more distress?

Could it be that that is something which we all do so you are loathe to criticise it?

On this one yes, I agree with you. Isnt man a pain in the butt for animals. The difference however is simple. Accidents yes, they happen. In this day and age we need the car etc, there isnt another option. Hopwever, if people deliberately drive around the country purposely killing animals then the law will come down on them like a ton of bricks.

So back to the original subject dogs can be controlled. They do not need to be off the lead for any reason and the legislation isnt as bad as first thought. Remember we already has a law that will lead to the destruction of a loving pet if it just happens to look like a 'supposed pit bull terrier', has been registered. The dog was being sick and the owner removed its muzzle so it didnt choke!
Law broken, dog murdered. A leash law is very possible for all dogs the way things are I am sad to say. Wild animal welfare is just another nail in our dogs freedom coffin.
 

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Flushing I have absolutely no problem with. What combat claire hopes for a return of is sick to say the least. I have not confused you two hebegebe :eek:))
 

Scratchline

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I don't think it is a great idea.

I was pointing out that letting my dogs chase a few squirrels is not akin to badger baiting or dog fighting IMO.

I know. I didnt think you were for a second, enjoy our chats.

I cannot think what hunting site it was on now, I will find it but this bloke was using a staff on foxes. Its head was one big scar and as bad as any fighting dog I have seen. Anyone involved in such activity has me as a huge enemy and rightly so IMHO.
 

Hebegebe

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It's possible but what I was getting at is whether you would agree with it.

All laws are possible. Politics is about which ones we should have.

Welfare is about balance and to me this would be ridiculous.

Like the animnal rights nutters who claim they want to 'end suffering'.
 

weebarney

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Rational debate, i think you meant you would like me to back down and agree with you, well theres a shame.

No just to clarify for other readers, a rational debate means a debate with someone who does not appear to think that rabbits are all little fluffy bunnies called Flopsy, Mopsy, Cottontail and Peter :) Or a debate with someone who does not draw ridiculous comparisons to the killing of a rabbit by a greyhound to organised dog fighting.... :p

Oh the old bunny hugger theory, ha ha not that old chestnut. Another of the pro animal cruelty clicks records that never gets changed!
 
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