advice please - will a micklem help with rearing?

[beerecco]

And ... I think the first serious episode of rearing happened after she let herself out of the stable at night and ate everyone else's breakfasts, a tub of joint supplement, a big bag of treats etc.... as well as destroying a wheelbarrow and a chest of drawers - wondering if the increased food intake could have changed the balance in her stomach and made it more acidic, leading to ulcers forming or something else?

 

[PorkChop]

Thank you for the update, it is always interesting.

Great that you have been able to start ruling things out, I would think ulcers is certainly something that I would investigate too.

Remember that sometimes bute irritates the gut, so if she gets worse on bute for me that would indicate ulcers.

 

[anastasiyax]

Okay I have 2 different experiences from two different horses but add up to your situation. Firstly rode a mare who would be fine one minute next i was on the ground. She was 17.1 and if i was a bit bigger maybe i could have stayed on but there was no warning i didnt even realised what happened before it was too late. However 9/10 she was perfect i rode her babreback etc. Eventually i saw a pattern, it was her seasons, she was put on "the pill" basically and if i she acted up i got off she was lunged (and often went nuts) but after would be good as gold again. Basically my advice would be to lunge before you ride especially in the bad arena, if shes a mare and its seasonal might be an option with the pill. Next my own pony is under 14 hands however things hes a stallion and does rear vertical although often predictable (ill take a rear over a buck as they have to stop to rear, they can however buck and gallop) anyway he's ridden in a micklem bitless, i wouldnt say it has stopped his rearing because his rearing is from fear out on hacks or excitement at a show. HOWEVER if your horse is rearing because she dislikes the poll pressure on the bridle (very possible) then yes the micklem will help. what bit is she ridden in now? is it a poll pressure bit? Whats stopped his rearing is basically just working through it but it can be daunting if youve never had to deal with something like this before. Although the rearing builds up his bum muscles and makes him a fab jumper and tbh i dont mind a rear i find them fun. Consider using a calmer as aswell before riding, used it for the mare when we went away to a new place and it really helped.

 

[Flyermc]

how are you getting on OP?

 

[wkiwi]

And as a few of you have said, the rearing could be very dangerous, but when I mentioned it to one of our neighbours at the yard yesterday she seemed to think it was par for the course and we shouldn't be put off .

I haven't read the rest of the comments yet but this bit shocked me. It is NOT par for the course to have a horse rear and no you should definitely be put off. I have re-schooled numerous horses and i agree with "be positive" (comments earlier) that a rearer is not at all suitable for a first horse. I would forgive a young horse that lost its balance once or twice and did a lift of the front legs or spin when very frightened by something, but they need riding through this by an experienced rider so that they don't turn into experienced rearers (those that repeat and go right up are usually practised at it or become so very rapidly).
You may have already decided that this horse is not safe (as i said, i haven't got to the end of the comments yet) but the fact that you have to ask and that you are considering getting someone to work on the horse means this one is not suitable. Even if someone more experience gets the horse through the rearing, this will only recur once the girls start riding again.
I would post the horses name on facebook and see if you can find out its history (from people other than its seller/owner) and try to get a refund if this is a long-standing issue. I am sure that your girls won't be happy initially if you tell them they need to have a different horse, but are you willing to risk their lives by letting them continue with this horse? I have had two horses try to go over backwards on me (deliberate attempts not a loss of balance) and i can tell you that they ARE risking serious injury/death if this happens. Even a horse that doesn't mean to go over can be pulled over by an inexperienced rider losing their balance.
This sort of behaviour is NOT par for the course in a well-trained horse.

 

[wkiwi]

Have now read the other posts and it is great that you are looking at physical things too. It would be great if it turned out to be something simple and fixable.
An easy way to sort out if it was a new behaviour or not would be to get the previous owner to come and ride the horse (preferably in her original bridle and saddle if she still has them) and see if the mare behaves or not.
We have a mare on the yard that has done advanced dressage when younger but can't cope with less experienced riders and rears, but is fine with experienced riders that ride to a soft contact. After a novice rider had her for two years of which she hadn't been ridden for 18 months (because of 'issues' - was sold from the field) she only took a week to get going kindly. She had been bought for a semi-experienced rider (BHS stage 2) but the mare made it clear that she wasn't happy and started to rear on day 3 (went fine on day 1, less good on day 2). This behaviour pattern is shown whenever any rides her that doesn't keep the sort of contact she likes and give the aids that she knows. (note she is only ever ridden by experienced riders, or at least bythose that think they are).
My point is that even if the horse has threatened to rear, it only takes a few minutes of a rider she knows to have her going forward again so your mares original owner should have no problem getting the horse going again if it is just that the mare is taking advantage of your girls in a new situation/ i know you have had other experienced riders on her, but a mare that is set in her ways with one rider might resent different aids etc. anyway.
If the owner is not happy to help out (assuming she hasn't stopped riding for physical reasons or something) then i would be suspicious.

 

[beerecco]

Okay I have 2 different experiences from two different horses but add up to your situation. Firstly rode a mare who would be fine one minute next i was on the ground. She was 17.1 and if i was a bit bigger maybe i could have stayed on but there was no warning i didnt even realised what happened before it was too late. However 9/10 she was perfect i rode her babreback etc. Eventually i saw a pattern, it was her seasons, she was put on "the pill" basically and if i she acted up i got off she was lunged (and often went nuts) but after would be good as gold again. Basically my advice would be to lunge before you ride especially in the bad arena, if shes a mare and its seasonal might be an option with the pill.

Thanks for getting in touch, she is a mare and it got worse when spring came but I wouldn't say it's possible to definitely link with the seasons. It sounds like you're more of an experienced rider than my girls! Everyone she has reared properly with since we've had her has ridden through it, she's only reared a bit with my girls on board and they just carried on, and every time someone's fallen off her they've just got back on and carried on, unfortunately that didn't seem to improve things though which is why we were thinking maybe it was either a behaviour that hadbeen there for a while or a sign of pain.

 

[beerecco]

Have now read the other posts and it is great that you are looking at physical things too. It would be great if it turned out to be something simple and fixable.
An easy way to sort out if it was a new behaviour or not would be to get the previous owner to come and ride the horse (preferably in her original bridle and saddle if she still has them) and see if the mare behaves or not.
We have a mare on the yard that has done advanced dressage when younger but can't cope with less experienced riders and rears, but is fine with experienced riders that ride to a soft contact. After a novice rider had her for two years of which she hadn't been ridden for 18 months (because of 'issues' - was sold from the field) she only took a week to get going kindly. She had been bought for a semi-experienced rider (BHS stage 2) but the mare made it clear that she wasn't happy and started to rear on day 3 (went fine on day 1, less good on day 2). This behaviour pattern is shown whenever any rides her that doesn't keep the sort of contact she likes and give the aids that she knows. (note she is only ever ridden by experienced riders, or at least bythose that think they are).
My point is that even if the horse has threatened to rear, it only takes a few minutes of a rider she knows to have her going forward again so your mares original owner should have no problem getting the horse going again if it is just that the mare is taking advantage of your girls in a new situation/ i know you have had other experienced riders on her, but a mare that is set in her ways with one rider might resent different aids etc. anyway.
If the owner is not happy to help out (assuming she hasn't stopped riding for physical reasons or something) then i would be suspicious.

Thanks for your helpful advice. The mare had been bought for a girl about the same age as my oldest 3 years ago, who gave up riding after she had had her for a year/ year and a half, she was then out on loan but this is someone I've found out from seeing a post on the old owner's facebook not been told, then spent a while not doing much then she was sent to a livery yard to be brought into work for sale. I don't know if the person who sold her would be willing to get on her again, but when i contacted her about the rearing she said she couldn't help. I think my girls have quite a soft contact, and the rearing seems to occur more when it's a more experienced rider as she's never gone up vertically with my girls on - the only one time she nearly did was a spook - although she's bronced and napped with them on board and once threw off the youngest when she decided to stand up in canter in the school.

She's still on holiday at my friend's farm at present, she had two weeks off completely on the vet's advice when we started the treatment for ulcers and she's now being lunged prior to arranging for someone who is used to rearing horses to get on and see how she is, whether her behaviour is any different after the ulcer treatment as the vet said although there is another 5 weeks to go on the treatment she should be feeling much better after 2-3 weeks.

I really appreciate you getting in touch with your advice about rearing not being par for the course as well!

It would be lovely if it just sorts out with the ulcers and was just a reaction to pain - as soon as we've got someone to sit on her I'll update the post and let you all know how we got on!

 

[MeltingSnowflake]

Any update on your mare, beerecco?

I know it's still early days, but I followed your thread with interest as I had a similar pony when I was a teenager and we never got to the bottom of it - it was heartbreaking.

Hope she's improving!

 

[beerecco]

Any update on your mare, beerecco?

I know it's still early days, but I followed your thread with interest as I had a similar pony when I was a teenager and we never got to the bottom of it - it was heartbreaking.

Hope she's improving!

thanks for getting in touch. We've brought her back and put her on schooling livery as of this Monday as she'd not been ridden for a while and my friend couldn't find anyone brave/foolish or with any free time to climb on her, and with her going straight up then minute anyone climbed on board I definitely don't blame them. I was nervous about the girls at the yard riding her as I didn't want them getting hurt so asked them to lunge before riding just to get a feel for how she was, but I wasn't there and the girl who is riding her for us didn't bother and she was fine! So it's definitely going better so far. Monday she was lunged as I brought the tack home to clean without remembering they would need it at the yard to ride (oops) but she's been schooled twice since then with a day off yesterday, and I managed to get down to the yard today to watch and there was no evidence of bad behaviour/grumpiness apart from a bit of head shaking and a couple of tail swishes. She was still unwilling to work into a shape at the beginning and looked quite stiff on one rein and a bit crooked, but after a canter on both reins and quite a lot of work on circles etc. she was starting to work into a shape in trot.

She was also much better around the girth and no sign of swishing tail and grumpiness when we were round the back end, so I think we can be pretty sure that the ulcers were causing pain even though there wasn't that much ulceration there.

She's on schooling livery for the next month which works for me as we're getting to the tail end of teenagers' exams and quite busy but initially it's looking positive. Going to get her saddle checked as soon as poss as with time off work she has put on a bit of weight! She's also lost a lot of fitness so I think it will be step by step to get her back to where she was before all this started.

She's on overnight turnout at the moment which means about 16 hours in the field, so she's getting plenty of time to stretch and graze, and still on omeprazole at a half dose for the next 4 weeks or so.

So - so far so good! We've not tried her in any of the places she was not happy before yet, so that is the next step.

 

[ester]

Good update It is nice to follow these things I always end up wondering what happens to some of the horses. Fingers crossed it keeps moving in the right direction.

 

[beerecco]

Thank you!!

 

[Emily Blunt]

I would ask why she despises contact to such an extent. There is more going ahead than disliking the contact. A typical stallion won't respond so brutally to contact they discredit of. I know you said every one of the checks were done yet by whom? Were teeth and so on done by EDT or vet? What harness/bit would she say she is in now? What are the experts assessments on why shes doing this?

 

[MeltingSnowflake]

Thanks for the update! Sounds positive so far, well done for sticking with her, I hope she comes right - will have everything crossed for you

 

[beerecco]

Unfortunately things aren't all sorted as I'd hoped... we'd had trouble hacking her as I think I said as she would just plant and refuse to move then threaten to go up. She has been really good in all the schools so far including the outdoor that she doesn't like, but when the girl who is schooling her tried to take her round the farm ride to cool down she was not keen, planting, spinning, then rearing to try to get out of hacking. She rode her on through it but our mare reared again twice when she came to a point where you could turn round - so maybe the ulcers exacerbated things but I don't think they were the root of the problem.

We're keeping her on schooling livery for a month to get her properly back into work and she will hopefully improve as when we bought her, she was in really good shape and impeccably behaved, but I don't know what to do next. Ideally to sell her to someone who can deal with her tantrums - are we likely to be able to find anyone who wants to take her on? On the plus side, she is very healthy and loves jumping, very easy to deal with on the ground and lovely to ride when she's not throwing a strop.

 

[ester]

It isn't unusual for ulcers to be a response to pain elsewhere I'm afraid, increasingly they seem to be usually secondary to something else going on.

 

[beerecco]

We had her back and hocks x-rayed and the vet trotted her up, saw her lunged etc. She was sensitive around her stomach which she isn't now - but the vet's advice was that the ulcers were the only thing going on, and that if that didn't sort it then it was probably behavioural.

 

[Leo Walker]

Its almost never just behavioural either sadly, just pain that hasnt been found yet

 

[beerecco]

Its almost never just behavioural either sadly, just pain that hasnt been found yet

Just very difficult to look for any other causes as

- we're first time horse owners with no experience and everyone we've spoken to face to face at they yard who's either ridden her or watched her behaviour has said it's the horse pushing the boundaries

- spine x-rays and hocks were clear, full lameness workup clear

- the ulcers which did show up were just a couple of grade 1 ulcers, very small. She did seem uncomfortable round her girth temporarily - that started in April and she showed no sign of it prior to that - but the napping and threatening to go up started almost from when we first got the horse, it's just that my girls didn't react by pushing back as hard as the people we've had schooling her

- vet fees for the investigations and treatment we've had so far have amounted to over £2000 (of which fortunately the majority has been covered by our insurance) and the vet has advised us that he thinks there is nothing wrong and if she is continuing to rear we just need to get tougher with her

- the rearing only happens when the horse doesn't want to be somewhere - eg, doesn't want to hack/be ridden in an outdoor arena, but in the indoor she is ok. This time when she started rearing on the farm ride it was before she set out, first of all spinning and then rearing when spinning didn't have any effect. She then reared at the first point where you'd turn round, then again at a point where you might turn back, which adds to my feeling that it's aimed at getting out of doing what she doesn't want to do - even if that's just a gentle walk around the farm ride.

I feel that we've done all we can with the horse with our limited experience. I was hopeful when she came back after having her ulcers treated that we had fixed the problem but as that's turned out not to be the case, I am now hoping that we can find a new home for the horse where the rider is equipped to deal with her behaviour and would have the confidence to ride through it.

At the same time, along with the amount we spent on the horse and what we've spent on equipment, livery, vet fees and so on, we are looking at about having spent over £10000 on a horse that the girls can't even sit on (that's not including what the insurance paid out), and while we have her they are not riding or occasionally riding riding school horses.

I have no idea what we could sell her for as she has her good points - lovely on the ground, when not rearing her paces are great, she likes her jumping etc - but I could never sell her on to anyone without being sure they were fully aware of what she's capable of and I don't want her to end up in a bad situation.

Feeling pretty downcast about the whole thing, and questioning whether it was a good idea in the first place to buy our own horse.

 

[beerecco]

PS Sorry for the uncharacteristic rant. Just feeling confused about what to do next and hoping we will find a good solution.

 

[Flyermc]

Ive only ever sold one horse in my life and he was very straightforward, im certainly not an experienced, but have you considered asking the person/dealer you bought her off to re-sell her for you?

 

[beerecco]

THanks for getting in touch. I'm feeling so bad about my previous grumpy message. Think the hot weather is getting to me.

I did contact the person who sold her and asked if she'd experienced her rearing, and she replied to say she couldn't help me but it sounded like a pain response so I should get her back and teeth checked. So after that response I don't think she would help out unfortunately.

 

[Leo Walker]

PS Sorry for the uncharacteristic rant. Just feeling confused about what to do next and hoping we will find a good solution.

I wasnt having a go at you at all, sorry if it came across that way. Its a very difficult situation to be in.

 

[ester]

Don't be sorry for the rant, of all places we should know how difficult it can be with them, even more so when you have no true knowledge of their history.

Just a thought we may have covered this before does she have other previous owners details in her passport?

 

[beerecco]

Thank you.

 

[beerecco]

Oops sent that without writing most of the planned content! It's a good idea re the passport but we're the third owner in there and the other two are friends - she was brought across from Ireland by someone when she was about 1 and then sold on to the previous owner who lives very nearby.

She didn't rear today, was just nappy, and is going out on another hack with a couple of other horses tomorrow so I just need to be patient and see what happens. Just having a grumpy day I think. Thanks again everyone for all the help and advice.

 

[MeltingSnowflake]

Oh - so sorry - how frustrating for you!! I know you've spent a fortune already but perhaps it's worth getting ovaries checked? (Apologies if you've already had it done - I have read the whole thread but it's been a while).

Maybe hormones? A trial of regumate?

 

[beerecco]

I did ask the vet about that, he thought with her behaviour it was unlikely to be a hormone issue because she is generally relaxed and only rears if she doesn't want to do something, doesn't show any sign of aggression etc., and also the rearing isn't linked with when she is in season - the vet said we should be able to see a difference 2 weeks out of three when she was ok then have a bad week. A couple of people have said their horses didn't show the stereotypical behaviour of hormone issues though so maybe it would be worth checking.

I think if I was more attached to the horse - like if we'd had her for a while and the girls had been able to ride her without constantly being on guard as to what she'd do next, I'd probably want to explore all the options more, but seeing as she was already nappy and difficult to ride out on the farm ride or in the outdoor arenas even before she started rearing, since the rearing started I've found it hard to trust her and don't want the girls to ride her - even though the youngest is constantly asking when she can ride her again.

At the same time I suppose I should give a bit of an allowance for her being brought back into work. It might be with the schooling that she starts to get into regular work again and gets more accustomed to being ridden and stops rearing again - but then with a rider who isn't as confident at pushing her on it would probably recur. Anyway - I think the best thing to do will probably be not jump to any conclusions yet and see how she is going at the end of her month's schooling, update the vet on what's going on and get his advice.

Thanks for your advice.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I did ask the vet about that, he thought with her behaviour it was unlikely to be a hormone issue because she is generally relaxed and only rears if she doesn't want to do something, doesn't show any sign of aggression etc., and also the rearing isn't linked with when she is in season - the vet said we should be able to see a difference 2 weeks out of three when she was ok then have a bad week. A couple of people have said their horses didn't show the stereotypical behaviour of hormone issues though so maybe it would be worth checking.

I think if I was more attached to the horse - like if we'd had her for a while and the girls had been able to ride her without constantly being on guard as to what she'd do next, I'd probably want to explore all the options more, but seeing as she was already nappy and difficult to ride out on the farm ride or in the outdoor arenas even before she started rearing, since the rearing started I've found it hard to trust her and don't want the girls to ride her - even though the youngest is constantly asking when she can ride her again.

At the same time I suppose I should give a bit of an allowance for her being brought back into work. It might be with the schooling that she starts to get into regular work again and gets more accustomed to being ridden and stops rearing again - but then with a rider who isn't as confident at pushing her on it would probably recur. Anyway - I think the best thing to do will probably be not jump to any conclusions yet and see how she is going at the end of her month's schooling, update the vet on what's going on and get his advice.

Thanks for your advice.

TBH, I would not be happy with a vet that said "no, it can't be........" without testing. Almost all behaviour has a physical or emotional cause in humans and animals. An emotional cause for a horse's behaviour would be a previous fright in a particular place, for example but that isn't the case with your mare, as she hasn't been to your yard previously. So, I would expect the vet to explore all possibilities. Some horses do feel so uncomfortable on particular yards, though that their behaviour deteriorates and when they are moved, their behaviour improves.

 

[TheHairyOne]

I know a girl who was bought a not cheap (5k ish) 6/7 year old mare from ireland off a 'well known' kent dealer. The mare was great for about a month then threw EVERYTHING at the inexperienced teenage girl who rode her. She reared, napped, spun, refused to be caught or would charge you down, bucked, refused to load, the lot except she was fine to handle once you had caught her and she was at the stables.

There was nothing found to be wrong with the mare at all. The girl stuck at it, was her first horse and her mum said they'd not get another if she was sold. Not sure i would have done, but they got a LOT of lessons. And I mean a lot. Once the mare had some confidence in her rider she was a different horse and is now out competing very successfuly.

What was telling about this mare was the fact she could be ridden through it by basically ignoring her and carrying on with what you were asking her to do. She had just trained her rider to get off and put her away. When they finally clicked they have done everything.

That being said...not sure id have sat a 15 year old on her again after some of her antics.

Tough place to be and i feel for you. If you do sell i would suggest sales livery to get her shown off properly. If she is pretty and talented at something and advertised honestly then someone may take a chance.

Good luck whichever way it goes