Flyingbuck
Well-Known Member
You're still apparently slandering?
AES - what's happening?
- Thread starter Flyingbuck
- Start date
You're still apparently slandering?
Flyingbuck
Well-Known Member
It is a mess and should not have been allowed to happen.
The point I am now wondering about...if the name of Anglo European Studbook is owned by the party overseas and the party in the UK does not own that name, what will be the studbook name on the passports issued by the UK party?
cruiseline
Well-Known Member
No slander there unlike most of your contributions to this thread. I am simply reading through your comments as anyone else looking at this thread is able to do.
Flyingbuck
Well-Known Member
In that case explain where I have misled?
cruiseline
Well-Known Member
I am at a competition at the moment Flyingbuck therefore on my mobile. As soon as I am able to get on my laptop I will duly ablige.
no_no_nanette
Well-Known Member
LOL! Not only is your website out of date, but you clearly stated that you have AES stallions which include the one who was 12th - when to be totally accurate, you now state you had this stallion until last summer - so clearly detail is seemingly not your strong point - good to know
???? I think that Shirley was completely clear and has been in all her subsequent posts, and I'm amazed at how good natured she has remained given the character of your posts. With an enviable record as one of the top breeders of SJers in the UK who is enormously respected by people in the industry and has done much to promote the cause of British breeding I think her views carry rather more weight. And with each posting your aim becomes more transparent - as people have said above, the objective is very obviously not to inform but just cause trouble. I think that the best thing to do with this thread is to let it, and you, sink to the bottom of the page. The more that you attempt to move it up again, the more obvious your real purpose will be. When there is real news to post, rather than just rumour, I'm absolutely confident that a responsible member of this forum will do so.
Flyingbuck
Well-Known Member
Thanks to all for messages of support - much appreciated
And, lol, I too agree - the more the troops are rallied to make personal attacks on me in some sort of futile attempt at smokescreen, the more the current AES problems intrigue one!
Save the personal attacks on me - I have a thick skin.
If you have any verifiable information on the current problems besetting the AES, I'd be pleased if you would share on this thread.
And, lol, I too agree - the more the troops are rallied to make personal attacks on me in some sort of futile attempt at smokescreen, the more the current AES problems intrigue one!
Save the personal attacks on me - I have a thick skin.
If you have any verifiable information on the current problems besetting the AES, I'd be pleased if you would share on this thread.
nomis
Well-Known Member
Ermmmm......"over the phone gradings". As I have asked twice before WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?? We are all VERY intrigued to see your evidence? You are the ONLY person on this thread to have mentioned this. Without proof it is libel in the eyes of the law.
Before you come onto public forums I suggest you make sure that all the facts you have put in black and white are correct, otherwise you are opening yourself up to legal action.
Firstly, how old are you? Seriously? That first sentence is like some kind of school child who is trying to prove that they actually do have friends. It sounds very desperate and pathetic really.
Personal attacks, please look at yourself on this matter. There is no smokescreen. As several people have said, go to the source to answer your questions (I will even make it easy and give you the telephone number - 01444 484840). The fact you are not even doing this shows you have really no interest in finding out the truth, especially when you really are not worried about the AES because you have never used them nor ever will.
Flyingbuck
Well-Known Member
If you can't read, that's not my fault.
As I have previously stated, if anyone has verifiable information regarding the competing claims on the AES studbook, then please add them here - if you wish to hijack the thread, it won't happen as I won't respond - go start your own thread where you can follow your own agenda to your heart's content.
Please leave this thread for verifiable news relating to on-going AES problems.
elijahasgal
Well-Known Member
Shall we get this thread back on track and stop the nitpicking each others threads?
AES as set up by Henk, has several top class stallions. Henk himself is a very straightforward and top class breeder himself, and has done a huge amount for british breeding.
January the KWPN announced that it would accept AES registered stallions, because of the position they now hold in WBF rankings.
Febuary the mess kicks off. Is it only me that sees any link there? (Although I have also been told by someone very knowledgable of the politics that it may be a stratigic move to gain more votes and foal registrations by the KWPN)
Fact AES has some world class stallions on its listings.
Fact AES is looked down on by many of the european breeders as they do not carry out mare gradings or foal inspections. Also the theory that they are easier to grade stallions with.
Fact the results are showing that the AES is climbing the rankings, so something must be right, even as far as accepting stallions on competition results.
So instead of this turning into a backbiting thread, can we please stick to the facts? Does anybody have any new factual information as to what is going on? Otherwise yes, some people are going to register elsewhere, and avoid using some top class AES stallions, and again kick a hole in UK breeding. Surely in this climate we should all be supporting one another with our different aims (cause few breeders are in direct compatition with each other) and sharing knowledge to improve each others breeding, instead of trying to tear others apart.
AES as set up by Henk, has several top class stallions. Henk himself is a very straightforward and top class breeder himself, and has done a huge amount for british breeding.
January the KWPN announced that it would accept AES registered stallions, because of the position they now hold in WBF rankings.
Febuary the mess kicks off. Is it only me that sees any link there? (Although I have also been told by someone very knowledgable of the politics that it may be a stratigic move to gain more votes and foal registrations by the KWPN)
Fact AES has some world class stallions on its listings.
Fact AES is looked down on by many of the european breeders as they do not carry out mare gradings or foal inspections. Also the theory that they are easier to grade stallions with.
Fact the results are showing that the AES is climbing the rankings, so something must be right, even as far as accepting stallions on competition results.
So instead of this turning into a backbiting thread, can we please stick to the facts? Does anybody have any new factual information as to what is going on? Otherwise yes, some people are going to register elsewhere, and avoid using some top class AES stallions, and again kick a hole in UK breeding. Surely in this climate we should all be supporting one another with our different aims (cause few breeders are in direct compatition with each other) and sharing knowledge to improve each others breeding, instead of trying to tear others apart.
Sportznight
Well-Known Member
Is everyone out of toys for hurling out of their prams yet? Would it be possible to simply discuss the question at hand? More than half of this thread is entirely irrelevant!
Flyingbuck
Well-Known Member
The sum total would appear to be that there is nothing new to add which can be verified at this point - we must just wait and watch as was stated a while back - it basically comes down to how long it will take to sort out - again speculation apparently at this point - the sooner it is sorted though, the better for mare and stallion owners alike.
ColourFan
Well-Known Member
Well said!
With respect to owning the name 'Anglo European Studbook' ... I have no idea but the company name 'Anglo European Studbook ltd' is in Dutch hands. Again I stress 'ltd' !!
The three major stock owners of 'Anglo European Studbook ltd' are THE three MAJOR KWPN stallion owners in the Netherlands. Believe me they have a vested interest in keeping the A.E.S. (which ever) alive in the Netherlands.
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
And this is what THEY say (pardon the lousy translation - blame Google) - http://translate.google.com/transla...aesbenelux.com/Home.html&act=urlcom/Home.html
koeffee
Well-Known Member
At the end of the day until the truth comes out all everyone here is doing is believing one side without hearing the other, and making a judgement based on a dodgy translation, always two sides of a story, we will all when when we need too. Has brought to light some unsavory characters to British breeders who i would never deal with.
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
Flyingbuck,
Whilst I'll accept that I neither understand, nor care about the minutiae of any registration authorities, could you explain to a rather bemused reader, just what your intentions are, regarding your posts, all of them? You've started a thread, or so it seems, with questions, but rapidly directed the theme to one of pointed accusations, or have I missed your original intent?
Alec.
Whilst I'll accept that I neither understand, nor care about the minutiae of any registration authorities, could you explain to a rather bemused reader, just what your intentions are, regarding your posts, all of them? You've started a thread, or so it seems, with questions, but rapidly directed the theme to one of pointed accusations, or have I missed your original intent?
Alec.
Flyingbuck
Well-Known Member
Alec Swan - just the quote above which I have stated a few times throughout the thread. The thread has gone off topic a few times, but now back on track again - hope that helps.
koeffee
Well-Known Member
Thats the thing flyingbuck, why would anyone here know on a public forum?? whilst a court case is going on, parties are not suppose to divulge information, so all you will get here is small minded individuals trying to cause a bit of trouble? This has been going on a while but as some said, only now kwpn are excepting aes stallions so the claws have come on other parties, im happy to wait, as im sure you are, having never using aes stallion it shouldnt matter to you?!!
Flyingbuck
Well-Known Member
Not quite sure I'd agree with all that you have just said.
A few links to reported information have appeared from others and I have added a separate link - I think that it's good that we can share information regarding an aspect of British breeding amongst ourselves who are British breeders.
Others have stated that we will be privy to a statement in a matter of days - again, time may be of the essence to some mare owners who like to cover early and so any prolonged delay may be problematic - but I welcome the news of a statement.
As a mare owner and breeder living in Scotland, I cannot agree with your assertion that what is happening in a section of British breeding should not matter to me.
Edited to add - and now that the thread is back on track, please let's keep it so.
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nomis
Well-Known Member
Koeffee, Alec Swan and myself have both informed the OP that they need to speak direct to the AES, I even went as far as giving him the telephone number. But the sad fact is that he has ignored both these recommendations and continues to pursue this on a public forum, knowing FULL WELL that he will not get an answer from anyone. Especially, as you rightly say, while any legal action is happening behind the scenes.
The fact of the matter is that the OP is just continuing this thread to stir, as he has no AES Stallions, no AES offspring and is highly unlikely to use any AES stallions due to the fact that his own breeding direction seems to sway very much to using stallions from Paul Schockemöhle, while registering said foals with other UK Studbooks (i.e. SSH or BHHS). So he has no vested interest at all regarding the AES.
The fact is that the KWPN, one of the largest Studbooks in the world, is now accepting the AES as one of its Approved Studbooks, and that speaks volumes for the quality of stallions and horses that the AES has, along with the statistics of what those horses are doing in sport.
As I have said several times, for those who want further information then phone the number I gave above, otherwise I think we should just let this post like dormant, although I am sure the OP will have something to say about that!
The fact of the matter is that the OP is just continuing this thread to stir, as he has no AES Stallions, no AES offspring and is highly unlikely to use any AES stallions due to the fact that his own breeding direction seems to sway very much to using stallions from Paul Schockemöhle, while registering said foals with other UK Studbooks (i.e. SSH or BHHS). So he has no vested interest at all regarding the AES.
The fact is that the KWPN, one of the largest Studbooks in the world, is now accepting the AES as one of its Approved Studbooks, and that speaks volumes for the quality of stallions and horses that the AES has, along with the statistics of what those horses are doing in sport.
As I have said several times, for those who want further information then phone the number I gave above, otherwise I think we should just let this post like dormant, although I am sure the OP will have something to say about that!
Flyingbuck
Well-Known Member
Give it a rest Ros!
No one is going to take anything verbatim over the phone - there would be no accurate record of who said what.
I have already intimated that I have sent emails, proper written requests - when I have received written replies, I will share.
No one is going to take anything verbatim over the phone - there would be no accurate record of who said what.
I have already intimated that I have sent emails, proper written requests - when I have received written replies, I will share.
nomis
Well-Known Member
Ros? That has amuzed me greatly.
If you have done the above and are waiting on a reply then why are you asking what is happening on a public forum? Nonsensical to say the least, and again just proves you are out to cause trouble!! As you have been a Chairman of a breed society before you would THINK that you have the WIT to know that this will not happen.
You have said that you will share your reply with the world when you get one, so I suggest that until that happens that you give it a rest as you know full well nobody is going to give you an answer on a public forum.
Flyingbuck
Well-Known Member
But once again you would appear to be mistaken - information has already been forthcoming on this very forum - members have added links to the latest news and have added that statements will be made shortly - and no doubt, further developments will be added as they become known to members.
Sharing information is one of the main tenets of a forum and I hope will continue to be the case.
Sharing information is one of the main tenets of a forum and I hope will continue to be the case.
Yorketown
Well-Known Member
I am a hobby breeder and I am afraid that I have no further information but I feel that I have to say that I am really disappointed in the stirring that is occurring. Yes, there is an issue but at the end of the day the AES and registration will continue regardless of the outcome so why stir? One would have hoped that British breeders would try and support a British studbooks not divulge in this gossip mongering.
Any other hobby/amateur breeders who are anxious about registering their foals please just call AES who I am sure will try and answer any of your concerns.
Flyingbuck, please don’t think this is a go out you, I do realise that as a stud owner/Stallion owner you would want clear clarification on the new structure asap but don’t know how any hearsay and links to one sided articles will help. You have already taken the best course of action and sent correspondence direct to the source for clarification; let’s just wait for the response.
The OP was right to start this thread but let’s try and help by keeping to the facts and not indulging in hearsay and character assassination.
Ps. please don’t all lynch me now!!!
Any other hobby/amateur breeders who are anxious about registering their foals please just call AES who I am sure will try and answer any of your concerns.
Flyingbuck, please don’t think this is a go out you, I do realise that as a stud owner/Stallion owner you would want clear clarification on the new structure asap but don’t know how any hearsay and links to one sided articles will help. You have already taken the best course of action and sent correspondence direct to the source for clarification; let’s just wait for the response.
The OP was right to start this thread but let’s try and help by keeping to the facts and not indulging in hearsay and character assassination.
Ps. please don’t all lynch me now!!!
jamesmead
Well-Known Member
So, since Flyingbuck has had his "information" from this forum, lets hope he's happy with that.
Of course, only a fool would value the sort of information emanating from Janet George's source, but hey ho...
Meanwhile, I have to say that apart from the very insightful posts by Colourfan, and the good sense talked on here by such as Alec and Nomis, the thing that stands out for me is the sheer spitefulness of, basically, a person who signally failed to do for the studbook he chaired and the breeders he represented, what Henk Minderman achieved for his.
I'm afraid success excites the interest of the greedy and the self-interested and I think this may be what we are seeing here; basically an attempted takeover of a British stud book and a sign, therefore, of its value and perceived success. But the NAME is not the STUDBOOK and even if the name has been legitimately acquired by the Dutch breeders it does not mean that the data it once represented has also been acquired. I would also expect that it is the data, rather than the name, which would interest DEFRA. My guess - and it is only a guess - I wouldn't go so far as to call it "information" - is that the studbook will continue with Henk at the helm in this country.
My gut feeling is that we should offer any support we can to this man who, by his energy and vision, has, through his studbook, made British breeding visible in Europe; not just for old times sake or out of gratitude, but out of self interest; because this is, effectively, is our flagship studbook and needs to remain in Britain under whatever name, rather than going to Holland to be asset-stripped.
If the only support we can give is a few days patience, then difficult though it is, especially for those with the ****-stirring streak (though I say it as shouldn't), then I think we should give it; as much for our own sakes as British breeders as for any other reason.
Of course, only a fool would value the sort of information emanating from Janet George's source, but hey ho...
Meanwhile, I have to say that apart from the very insightful posts by Colourfan, and the good sense talked on here by such as Alec and Nomis, the thing that stands out for me is the sheer spitefulness of, basically, a person who signally failed to do for the studbook he chaired and the breeders he represented, what Henk Minderman achieved for his.
I'm afraid success excites the interest of the greedy and the self-interested and I think this may be what we are seeing here; basically an attempted takeover of a British stud book and a sign, therefore, of its value and perceived success. But the NAME is not the STUDBOOK and even if the name has been legitimately acquired by the Dutch breeders it does not mean that the data it once represented has also been acquired. I would also expect that it is the data, rather than the name, which would interest DEFRA. My guess - and it is only a guess - I wouldn't go so far as to call it "information" - is that the studbook will continue with Henk at the helm in this country.
My gut feeling is that we should offer any support we can to this man who, by his energy and vision, has, through his studbook, made British breeding visible in Europe; not just for old times sake or out of gratitude, but out of self interest; because this is, effectively, is our flagship studbook and needs to remain in Britain under whatever name, rather than going to Holland to be asset-stripped.
If the only support we can give is a few days patience, then difficult though it is, especially for those with the ****-stirring streak (though I say it as shouldn't), then I think we should give it; as much for our own sakes as British breeders as for any other reason.
jamesmead
Well-Known Member
Cross-posted with Yorketown; an excellent post.
Flyingbuck
Well-Known Member
Hahaha - that made laugh
Flyingbuck
Well-Known Member
I would agree with that - let's see how long it is before it starts up again though...and by whom
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
As my only 'source' is an article on a respectable equestrian site - and an admittedly slightly rough translation from the Dutch of the AES site there, I suspect it's better than people's gut feelings, likes and dislikes.
The Anglo European Studbook LTD (my emphasis on the LTD) is a company and it IS the recognised PIO! IT obviously owns the studbook. Henk is a minor shareholder in this company and has been - allegedly - sacked by the majority shareholders who are big KWPN breeders in Holland.
I personally think this is unfortunate as Henk has worked his backside off establishing the AES in the UK - and obviously is well-liked an respected by the breeders. However, the fact would appear to be that he is no longer a director of the Anglo European Studbook LTD which is the DEFRA registered PIO and the 'owner' of the data.
Gut feelings, likes and dislikes will have nothing to do with the outcome of this situation - the law will.
jamesmead
Well-Known Member
I'm afraid Janet George is making MASSIVE assumptions here.
Anglo European Studbook Ltd. is a COMPANY NAME. There is no "obviously" about whether or not it owns the data or remains the studbook that was once associated with that name. A name can be sold without the business that first used it. (Of course, buying a ready-made "company" in the sense of a registered name is actually a normal way to start up in business, cheaper and quicker than going through the process from scratch).
Any authority dealing with the original business would NOT transfer their interest to a new business re-using the old name; so it cannot be certain that "Anglo European Studbook Ltd." IS the PIO recognised by DEFRA as it may no longer be the same business.
That the new directors claim it is the "real" studbook is really neither here not there; Henk, by holding gradings, appears to be claiming otherwise with just as much justification.
As Janet George says, the law will decide; but until it does, I feel a lot safer with my gut feeling than with the "information" as relayed by Janet George and interpreted at face value as if the law had already decided.
Anglo European Studbook Ltd. is a COMPANY NAME. There is no "obviously" about whether or not it owns the data or remains the studbook that was once associated with that name. A name can be sold without the business that first used it. (Of course, buying a ready-made "company" in the sense of a registered name is actually a normal way to start up in business, cheaper and quicker than going through the process from scratch).
Any authority dealing with the original business would NOT transfer their interest to a new business re-using the old name; so it cannot be certain that "Anglo European Studbook Ltd." IS the PIO recognised by DEFRA as it may no longer be the same business.
That the new directors claim it is the "real" studbook is really neither here not there; Henk, by holding gradings, appears to be claiming otherwise with just as much justification.
As Janet George says, the law will decide; but until it does, I feel a lot safer with my gut feeling than with the "information" as relayed by Janet George and interpreted at face value as if the law had already decided.