Aggressive off lead dogs - wwyd?

Tiddlypom said:
However well your dog is trained, surely it's good practice to at least take a lead when walking in a public area? Just in case?
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I never used to but do now, mainly so I can catch someone elses dog if need be. Also we do more road work now, and I have a couple of fields with sheep in on a few routes and although the dogs don't need to be on a lead near sheep I feel it sends a soothing signal to the farmer. I don't mean that nastily. Ffee is frightenend of sheep :D
 
Clodagh said:
I never used to but do now, mainly so I can catch someone elses dog if need be. Also we do more road work now, and I have a couple of fields with sheep in on a few routes and although the dogs don't need to be on a lead near sheep I feel it sends a soothing signal to the farmer. I don't mean that nastily. Ffee is frightenend of sheep :D
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Well I don't take a lead when just out hacking my horse to catch someone elses dog so not sure why I would when walking my dog. I also don't walk on roads or through fields of sheep.

It was drilled in to me right when I started gundog training that you should have a dog well trained enough that if you forget your lead out shooting, it doesn't matter. So that's what I have.

Not sure what other reasons TP may have for needing a lead but very interested to hear what they may be in case I need to change how I do things.
 
I often take the dogs to where I simply don’t need them on a lead (especially the collie who is Velcro dog and has 100% recall). But a lead is just another bit of ‘kit’. If you don’t need it fine, but it’s always sensible to have it slung around your neck.
 
Amymay said:
I often take the dogs to where I simply don’t need them on a lead (especially the collie who is Velcro dog and has 100% recall). But a lead is just another bit of ‘kit’. If you don’t need it fine, but it’s always sensible to have it slung around your neck.
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For what scenario though- out of interest? To catch someone elses dog as mentioned above?
 
Reasons why I carry a lead even though my dog has good training and recall:

I think it's the law that we must put the dog on the lead when we come across another person and/or dog here. I've had some people walking tell me not to worry about it since my Lab listens, but I still do it unless it's someone I know.

I also think it is polite to put the dog on a lead when passing people because some people are nervous about off leash dogs.

Plus if someone's dog on a lead managed to get out of control/away from the owner and attack my off the lead dog...guess who would be blamed?
 
CanteringCarrot said:
Reasons why I carry a lead even though my dog has good training and recall:

I think it's the law that we must put the dog on the lead when we come across another person and/or dog here. I've had some people walking tell me not to worry about it since my Lab listens, but I still do it unless it's someone I know.

I also think it is polite to put the dog on a lead when passing people because some people are nervous about off leash dogs.

Plus if someone's dog on a lead managed to get out of control/away from the owner and attack my off the lead dog...guess who would be blamed?
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Not the law here but I'd support it if it was.

I always have my dog at heel on my left, you probably wouldn't actually notice she wasn't on a lead. If I felt the need for someone elses benefit I'd probably just loop the whistle over her head briefly.

If my dog was being attacked by another dog, I'd rather pick her up out of the way (but she's little!) or her be loose and be able to move out of the way I think. I'm not sure how having her physically attached to me would help that situation. My dog is EXTREMELY submissive though, if she wasn't I can totally understand that part.

But each to their own, I keep meaning to order some Bisley leads but just haven't got round to it yet.
 
Just for interest, it was an off lead spaniel that jumped into my garden and chased/scared the shit out of my puppy and has barked at/snapped at both of my older males, both through the garden gate and on leash, they remained neutral (all of one of the breeds listed several times on that Wiki article).
 
CorvusCorax said:
Just for interest, it was an off lead spaniel that jumped into my garden and chased/scared the shit out of my puppy and has barked at/snapped at both of my older males, both through the garden gate and on leash, they remained neutral (all of one of the breeds listed several times on that Wiki article).
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I am not saying that spaniels, labs, greyhounds, whatever can't be aggressive and snappy and cause no end of trouble. Of course they can, all breeds can.

But the breeds responsible for human deaths I'm afraid are more or less the same breeds over and over again. A lab or a spaniel or whatnot may bite- but they are not responsible for mauling humans to deaths.

Your dogs are obviously well trained and socialised. But these breeds, in the wrong hands, are clearly more likely to do serious damage than other breeds.
 
Michen said:
Not the law here but I'd support it if it was.

I always have my dog at heel on my left, you probably wouldn't actually notice she wasn't on a lead. If I felt the need for someone elses benefit I'd probably just loop the whistle over her head briefly.

If my dog was being attacked by another dog, I'd rather pick her up out of the way (but she's little!) or her be loose and be able to move out of the way I think. I'm not sure how having her physically attached to me would help that situation. My dog is EXTREMELY submissive though, if she wasn't I can totally understand that part.

But each to their own, I keep meaning to order some Bisley leads but just haven't got round to it yet.
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Yeah, I mean, I get it.

What I meant was that if two dogs get in a fight and one has a lead attached, when it's time to play the blame game for insurance purposes, I'd be to blame, even if my dog was submissive.

Even if it wasn't the case, it wouldn't be difficult to say "but their dog was off the lead, they obviously instigated" or something like that.

Or maybe that's just how it would go down here. Idk.
 
Clodagh said:
You need to go 'urban', I walk near Stansted airport, so as long as you don't mind planes taking the tops of the trees off you don't see a sole. If we ever move somewhere more beauty spot I suspect I'll have a horrible shock.
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I think I might have said this on another thread but the place I have encountered the fewest problems is in central London, weirdly enough, and I am lamenting not being able to visit at the moment!

GSD Woman said:
The dogs who need a leash law tend to be owned by the idiots who would ignore it.
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Yup, and it wouldn't be fair on those who do take care to train their dogs and keep them under control. I think I personally could suck it up (plenty of experience of exercising dogs not suitable to go off lead) but I appreciate that many wouldn't. It also does very little to combat fatal attacks by dogs on humans. Also, the concept of designated off-lead dog parks stuffed to the gills with 'he's only being friendlies' is my idea of hell.
 
I'd be really sad if I couldn't walk my very well behaved, and completely disinterested in other dogs, collie in a country park off lead. Walking with her in a scenic place is one of my favourite things to do in the whole world, and exploring different places is one of hers. Id also need to walk for many, many more miles to give her the exercise that she is accustomed to when she has the freedom to run. She is not reactive at all and just quietly skirts around other dogs and people and carries on on her way, or comes back to me if I ask her to.
I do usually carry a lead unless it is very early or late but I rarely have to use it. I don't go at busy weekend afternoon times when the place is full of famiies and other people, but thats not because I couldn't trust her but because I'm an anti social so and so.

I do think the onus should be on the owners of the badly behaved dogs not to ruin it for the rest of us tbh, and I'd rather see more enforcement of dog control legislation to scare those people into keeping their dogs on leads especially in busy and family areas before going fully insisting all dogs on leads.
 
I’d be in full support of an on-lead law.

Personally, I always carry a lead with the same mindset that I’d also carry a crop on a hack, or have a first aid kit in my car - it’s far better to have it and never use it, than to need it and be without.

For those who don’t carry or use a lead - what if something happened to you when out and about, and there was no way for someone to safely capture or restrain your dog?
 
fiwen30 said:
I’d be in full support of an on-lead law.

Personally, I always carry a lead with the same mindset that I’d also carry a crop on a hack, or have a first aid kit in my car - it’s far better to have it and never use it, than to need it and be without.

For those who don’t carry or use a lead - what if something happened to you when out and about, and there was no way for someone to safely capture or restrain your dog?
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What is the necessity to carry a crop? Incase you need to use it on your horse!?

On the flip side, with all the dog thefts particularly with working breeds, I’m unsure I want someone to be able to restrain my dog. A woman ten miles away was walking her dog recently and someone tried to rip the lead out of her hand. Absolutely terrifying.

There are pros and cons, I guess. As with most things.
 
Michen said:
What is the necessity to carry a crop? Incase you need to use it on your horse!?

On the flip side, with all the dog thefts particularly with working breeds, I’m unsure I want someone to be able to restrain my dog. A woman ten miles away was walking her dog recently and someone tried to rip the lead out of her hand. Absolutely terrifying.

There are pros and cons, I guess. As with most things.
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No, precisely the *opposite*. Just because someone never uses a lead in their dog, doesn’t mean it’s not prudent to carry one. They’re a tool, just like a crop.

I’m pretty sure I don’t need to laundry list the uses for a crop outside of ‘using it on your horse’ for you.
 
Michen said:
Of course all dogs should be trained. That's a given. Look at the terrier that attacked the seal in London then bit a person trying to get it off the seal.

But what has been mentioned is the need to be able to physically restrain a dog, to prevent a potential problem. That has been mentioned. At the risk of repeating myself, if you had a dog sound in tempermant, why would this be a concern? It wouldn't.

I know it's unlikely but things happen. Lets say you tripped and fell over and dropped the lead and someone came to help you. If you can't trust that your dog in that situation won't do anything to hurt another person, or dog, it should be muzzled.

That's just my opinion. And it goes for any breed.
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I agree. Aggressive dogs need to be muzzled too, just being on the lead isn't sufficiently under control. There are times when people have to pass each other in close proximity, for one thing.There's a path leading into woods that I used to walk my dog in, till he was attacked and injured and I became too scared of aggressive dogs to go there. It's only a couple of metres wide, so an aggressive on lead dog could so easily lunge at, and get hold of another dog. It's the same with footpaths on arable land, which are often even narrower. There's just nowhere to go, so muzzles are as necessary as leads.

My dog was attacked and badly injured years ago by a GSD which was wearing a headcollar, which broke as it surged at my dog. If it had been muzzled, my dog would probably have escaped injury. I've heard of aggressive dogs being able to attack other animals even with muzzles on, but if they're on lead too, it's obviously the safest option. Nothing is 100% infallible, and if people walk aggressive dogs in public, they should have the decency to keep them under full control.

I so wish that people trained their dogs not to run up to on lead dogs, or if they can't do that, kept them on the lead. Mine is scared of dogs bouncing up to him since he was attacked, and in any case many dogs feel defensive when on lead, which most people seem to be unaware of.
 
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Michen said:
What is the necessity to carry a crop? Incase you need to use it on your horse!?

On the flip side, with all the dog thefts particularly with working breeds, I’m unsure I want someone to be able to restrain my dog. A woman ten miles away was walking her dog recently and someone tried to rip the lead out of her hand. Absolutely terrifying.

There are pros and cons, I guess. As with most things.
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I'm not sure that you are not arguing for the sake of it but anyway. I don't use a lead on a days shooting but I always have one with me. It would be like going hunting without a hunting whip, you may do so but I was always bought up that you hunted with a whip. I always have a lead in a pocket.
It is very difficult to leave your house and not do any road work at all. We have a farm and I still cross roads. I don't leash the dogs to cross them but I do to walk along them. A load of cyclists went past today, I hadn't heard their approach (windy) and was glad that the dogs didn't jump into their path as they were startled.
It doesn't make me look incompetent, using a lead, or if it does I can live with that.
 
blackcob said:
I guess I'm struggling to envisage a walk where I wouldn't ever need to use a lead at any point? In normal times I have probably more options than most from which to strike out for a walk and I could still reasonably expect to meet roads, sheep, horses, people etc., even from the very remotest of these places.
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I have a gate at the back of my house through woods which then connects onto a footpath.

Genuinely curious- do none of you take your dogs out with your horses? In which case they need to be 100% in all situations without use of a lead (unless you get off your horse and on again?)


I would say half of the week I am hacking with dog, so maybe I am just not used to popping leads on and off with ease. If I meet other people or dogs or horses on foot, she’s called to heel. If I’m on horseback it’s “come in” or “stay back” depending if I want her to go in front or drop behind. I can’t just be getting on and off to slip leads on when I’m on horseback, so I don’t feel the need to do it when I’m on the ground either.

I do respect the point about if something happened to me, that’s something I’ll need to think about and also weigh up the dog theft bit.
 
Clodagh said:
I'm not sure that you are not arguing for the sake of it but anyway. I don't use a lead on a days shooting but I always have one with me. It would be like going hunting without a hunting whip, you may do so but I was always bought up that you hunted with a whip. I always have a lead in a pocket.
It is very difficult to leave your house and not do any road work at all. We have a farm and I still cross roads. I don't leash the dogs to cross them but I do to walk along them. A load of cyclists went past today, I hadn't heard their approach (windy) and was glad that the dogs didn't jump into their path as they were startled.
It doesn't make me look incompetent, using a lead, or if it does I can live with that.
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Not arguing for the sake of it at all. I just wasn’t sure about how a crop and a lead we’re relevant to eachother in terms of necessity. Nor do I think it’s anything to do with competence!

You said earlier you never used to take a lead and now you do. So circumstances or feelings have obviously changed for you over the years. Perhaps my position is similar?
 
Michen said:
I have a gate at the back of my house through woods which then connects onto a footpath.

Genuinely curious- do none of you take your dogs out with your horses? In which case they need to be 100% in all situations without use of a lead (unless you get off your horse and on again?)


I would say half of the week I am hacking with dog, so maybe I am just not used to popping leads on and off with ease. If I meet other people or dogs or horses on foot, she’s called to heel. If I’m on horseback it’s “come in” or “stay back” depending if I want her to go in front or drop behind. I can’t just be getting on and off to slip leads on when I’m on horseback, so I don’t feel the need to do it when I’m on the ground either.

I do respect the point about if something happened to me, that’s something I’ll need to think about and also weigh up the dog theft bit.
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I hack out with my dog often - on quiet lanes and tracks though I haven't yet done open hill with dog and horses. I meet people and vehicles. Red IT has great recall; when I am on the horse probably even better than when I am on foot. We pass various dogs in their gardens, ungated entrances etc and have to pull in for vehicles to pass and sometimes other horses on bridleways etc. Red has to understand at various times to recall immediately as well as the 'wait' command which is sometimes safer or 'better' in some way. A dog for doing this safely MUST be very reliable and considered as safe as possible with people, other dogs, vehicles and stock - it's not a particularly easy ask nor is it the kind of 'usual' training that dogs in the UK get tbh. Red hasn't learnt a lot of things because I am not especially good at dog training but he has learnt all that he needs to do to live our lifestyle. I wouldn't say he is particularly brilliant but probably quite good for a terrier type!! However I am aware that all dogs are fallible so I do carry a lead. I have never needed to use it but if need be and in an emergency of some kind I would get off the horse, put the dog on the lead and walk with both for whatever distance was required. It just seems like a very simple safety 'tool' if you like! It also can help to reassure my neighbours that I am not as 'casual' as it may appear and that I CAN if requested or required, physically restrain the dog. No one has ever suggested this btw but I sort of think it is good modern manners. If I am riding and leading and taking the dog then I will take an extra lead rein and a dog lead. I am very aware that with multiple animals, multiple things may go awry!!
 
Not quite from home but I can leave the farm directly on to open moorland and even stay off the bridleways and byways so as not to meet riders or cyclists but there's pretty much nowhere to go that doesn't have sheep or wild ponies. While I'm as sure as I can be that my youngest dog wouldn't chase either, the farmers don't know that and I personally don't think it's worth the risk of something going wrong, same reason I won't hack out with a dog either. Possibly doesn't help that until recently I always had to ride and lead so no spare hand free if the shit did hit the fan.

Are we looking at leads from different POVs here? Collective we really, not just Michen and I. I know that some will consider them as something akin to punishment or a mark of lack of training, I am more of the school of thought that they're a tool and for safety.
 
Michen said:
Not arguing for the sake of it at all. I just wasn’t sure about how a crop and a lead we’re relevant to eachother in terms of necessity. Nor do I think it’s anything to do with competence!

You said earlier you never used to take a lead and now you do. So circumstances or feelings have obviously changed for you over the years. Perhaps my position is similar?
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My position has changed, yes. I only used to walk on the farm or on two long loops, none of which required more than crossing straight over lanes. When Lockdown I started we really started walking a lot further, so roads, and then two fields had sheep put on them so needed leads for those.
I used to hack out with my lurcher, but she was so bad and used to vanish quite often, so although we went round the roads it was only early on a weekend morning I could take her and honestly, at the risk of sounding ancient, there was so much less traffic round here 20 years ago. I wouldn't hack on our lane now, close to airport, single lane and high banks so you can't get off the road.

And nothing against debate or argument for the sake of it, surely that is why we are here?

Blackcob - to my dogs the lead is a punishment, they generally only used to go on it to go the the vets, so lead came out 'Oh no really bad day ahead'. It has improved after paragraph 1 above. They will not poo or wee on it though, if we go away with them being on the lead means don't go here as we hustle to a non pavement area, and with hindsight thats not a good lesson but to them lead means cross your legs.
 
Michen said:
I am not saying that spaniels, labs, greyhounds, whatever can't be aggressive and snappy and cause no end of trouble. Of course they can, all breeds can.

But the breeds responsible for human deaths I'm afraid are more or less the same breeds over and over again. A lab or a spaniel or whatnot may bite- but they are not responsible for mauling humans to deaths.

Your dogs are obviously well trained and socialised. But these breeds, in the wrong hands, are clearly more likely to do serious damage than other breeds.
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agree that list has the same breeds over and over again, but the reason a certain type of person gets these dogs is that they can be used in the same way as using a gun or knife. its very sad for the dogs and for people who own these types of dogs for the right reason. there are a few rottie,staffie,gsd owners on here whose dogs would never harm anyone but the breeds are tarnished with the same brush as the others. i am not keen on the look of staffies but know a few who i meet regularly and they are very people and dog friendly and a credit to the breed. i like rotties and gsds but hardly ever see either breed round here.. we just seem to have loads of nutty poodle crosses:(
 
splashgirl45 said:
agree that list has the same breeds over and over again, but the reason a certain type of person gets these dogs is that they can be used in the same way as using a gun or knife. its very sad for the dogs and for people who own these types of dogs for the right reason. there are a few rottie,staffie,gsd owners on here whose dogs would never harm anyone but the breeds are tarnished with the same brush as the others. i am not keen on the look of staffies but know a few who i meet regularly and they are very people and dog friendly and a credit to the breed. i like rotties and gsds but hardly ever see either breed round here.. we just seem to have loads of nutty poodle crosses:(
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But “certain type of people” have all types of dogs. And it’s not other breeds that are showing up on that list.

Of course there are people on here with lovely versions of the breed, but I just don’t see how anyone can argue that there aren’t some breeds of dogs more likely to be aggressive than others if they are bought up wrong (or even if they aren’t). And to me that list speaks volumes.
 
Michen said:
Not sure what other reasons TP may have for needing a lead but very interested to hear what they may be in case I need to change how I do things.
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I think that most points I was thinking of have been covered pretty well in other replies. No matter how good your dog's recall is, it is still good practice to bring a lead. A lead is more use in an emergency if it is brought along rather than left hung on a hook at home.

Maybe a field you cross regularly unexpectedly has sheep put on it, and surely everyone out walking puts their dog on a lead when crossing fields containing farm animals? It is a courtesy to hard pressed farmers, who may not know that your immaculately trained at heel dog would never chase them, when maybe he lost 10 ewes to an off lead dog attack the week before. Also, some people are genuinely frightened of dogs, so if you come across other walkers in a tight spot, IMHO it's polite to pop your dog briefly on a lead as you pass.

If a dog thinks that a lead is 'punishment', then surely that is a gap in the training? All dogs should accept a lead. In any case, if the dog ever needed slow rehab after an injury of some sort, then it may need to be walked only on a lead for some weeks, so it is best that it already knows and is comfortable about leads.
 
Michen said:
In case of what? I'd pick her up if there was some sort of emergency but not sure what that could be, other than someone elses dog harrassing her.

She comes out all the time with me on horseback, sometimes I'm riding and leading another horse. Should I not do that?
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I don't think that anyone should take a dog hacking with them. You can't get hold of the dog from on top of the horse - and no-one can guarantee their dog's behaviour under all circumstances, no matter how well trained it is. I hate to see dogs wandering along the side of the road yards behind a horse, whose rider can't possibly know exactly what the dog is doing. Of course if you ride on your own land, that is totally different.
 
Clodagh said:
I never used to but do now, mainly so I can catch someone elses dog if need be. Also we do more road work now, and I have a couple of fields with sheep in on a few routes and although the dogs don't need to be on a lead near sheep I feel it sends a soothing signal to the farmer. I don't mean that nastily. Ffee is frightenend of sheep :D
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It doesn't just send a signal to the farmer but also to other dog walkers, that they need to put their own dogs on a lead.
 
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