All these barefoot posts.....

Oberon said:
The Barefoot Taliban allows you status as a Highland, leg removable, specialist, sub-member
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haha thanks :D

I should start encouraging people to chainsaw their horses' legs off and replace them with wheels on these threads now... Would certainly make the barefoot threads less repetitive to some :D
 
amandap said:
Re pseudoscience... yes there is that. Give me the science that says shoeing is NOT harmful and is 'best' for horses etc. etc. Give me the science that says wedges and pads for life are required in given conditions. etc. etc. etc.
Is some of this not pseudoscience? Perhaps I don't understand the meaning of the word.
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I can't. It doesn't exist ;) I think we all agree on the fact we need more research :D

However, I do feel that certain posters find it difficult to look at what little research is available objectively and as part of 'the bigger picture'

There was recently some interest in an article which described some of the underlying pathology behind 'navicular'. Interesting discussion piece, although I would rather have seen the research that I hope was behind it. To certain people that was proof that some vets get it wrong; that navicular disease/syndrome is an old fashioned way of describing caudal heel pain (I quite agree :D)

However they managed to gloss over/ignore where the same article it repeatedly stated that it made no difference to treatment and that remedial farriery with a capable farrier was still the 'gold standard'. It wasn't even mentioned in the thread as I remember.

Science doesn't work like that, you can't pick up little bits you agree with and simply ignore the rest. You don't have to agree with it, but you do have to consider it :)

Unless we get some decent quality research in equines it's all conjecture anyway :cool:
 
Lady La La said:
Cptrayes.

(Well, you did ask...)



This is exactly what I have been thinking to myself. Apparently I am anti barefoot, yet my barefooted horses say otherwise :o
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Cpt? I think you will find that she advocates good shoeing? Will be the first to tell anyone trying barefoot for the first time and is not going well to shoe. I have never seen a post by cpt that says barefoot is the only option:confused:
 
tallyho! said:
Cpt? I think you will find that she advocates good shoeing? Will be the first to tell anyone trying barefoot for the first time and is not going well to shoe. I have never seen a post by cpt that says barefoot is the only option:confused:
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Yes, we've addressed that. Since you seem to have missed it, I'll post my reply again :)

Lady La La said:
That may well be the case, however it's not something I've seen. I have seen her bang on and on and on at people to keep shoes off their horses, when IMO it wasn't/isn't/never will be a viable option. Swings and roundabouts, clearly.
I can only judge on that which I have seen, and I must admit I usually try and stay away from barefoot threads as some of the attitudes involved wind me up, so I'm sure you are entirely correct.
At least I was brave enough to answer the question though eh, Tallyho ;)
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Lady La La said:
Yes, we've addressed that. Since you seem to have missed it, I'll post my reply again :)
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Ok, I have refreshed and read it now. Sorry, was hoovering as I am off to stay at a friends so we do can do some Xc tomorrow... Surprised it is still on considering the rain...

I will be on a barefoot horse and she will be on a shod one. We are still friends though even though she thinks I am mad :)
 
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rhino said:
I can't. It doesn't exist ;) I think we all agree on the fact we need more research :D

However, I do feel that certain posters find it difficult to look at what little research is available objectively and as part of 'the bigger picture'

There was recently some interest in an article which described some of the underlying pathology behind 'navicular'. Interesting discussion piece, although I would rather have seen the research that I hope was behind it. To certain people that was proof that some vets get it wrong; that navicular disease/syndrome is an old fashioned way of describing caudal heel pain (I quite agree :D)

However they managed to gloss over/ignore where the same article it repeatedly stated that it made no difference to treatment and that remedial farriery with a capable farrier was still the 'gold standard'. It wasn't even mentioned in the thread as I remember.

Science doesn't work like that, you can't pick up little bits you agree with and simply ignore the rest. You don't have to agree with it, but you do have to consider it :)
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I would also agree we need lots more science but I need a good and unbiased interpreter. I really struggle to wade my way through even some summaries of research. lol

I've highlighted the words 'capable farrier' as a potential stumbling block and imo a bit of a get out of jail free card. How do we as owners know who is truly a capable farrier before treatment starts? Hindsight isn't really the best way to judge. Am I being pedantic?

rhino said:
Unless we get some decent quality research in equines it's all conjecture anyway :cool:
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I agree and also why experiences/anecdotal evidence are so valuable, at this time, to those struggling with difficult problems and conflicting advice topped off by strong gut feelings.
We would all do well to remember your point on this. ;)
 
'What bugs me is the fundamental belief held by some owners, farriers, instructors and vets that shoes are the only option and that heart bars are the magic cure for all ailments. '
and that is the same attitude a lot of 'barefoot' people have regarding barefoot-cures practically anything, (even sound horses that have been cured by shoes..) so I think you must allow the same attitude in reverse to bug other people.
 
Forgot this...
rhino said:
However they managed to gloss over/ignore where the same article it repeatedly stated that it made no difference to treatment and that remedial farriery with a capable farrier was still the 'gold standard'. It wasn't even mentioned in the thread as I remember.
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You mean you didn't point it out? :D
 
amandap said:
Forgot this...

You mean you didn't point it out? :D
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:D :D

I didn't. I honestly didn't think it would achieve anything other than cause aggravation with certain people. And shoeing/barefoot is really not something I have a vast amount of knowledge about to be honest :p I don't mind joining in a discussion like this, or if someone asks a specific question, but otherwise I just let them get on with it :cool:
 
SusieT said:
'How do we as owners know who is truly a capable farrier before treatment starts?' same applies to trimmers
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That is true but I was referring to the 'gold standard' mentioned as opposed to owners choice.
The point I was trying to address is how can something so potentially arbitrary/variable/unknown be part of a gold standard coming out of a piece of research.
Perhaps there's a list of 'gold standard' approved remedial farriers?
 
so you would like them to list farreirs they beleive capable? Not bearing in mind that thigns change over the years? The word capable is there to point out it must be a good farrier, which an owner has to find themselves. I don't understand your problem with the whole knowing if someone is good or not regarding farriers.
 
I just wonder why they put 'capable' farrier and not just remedial farrier in a gold standard from a piece of research. Perhaps I am too pedantic then.
 
maisie06 said:
I shoe him to keep him working happily he is a working animal not a pet and if he needs shoes he gets them, simples. See I KNEW this would turn into a witch hunt!!! My horses my choice. This is EXACTLY the preachy, holier than thou attitude I hate about the barefoot clan.
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Maisie06 you posted a crowing post about how you don't do anything special to keep your horse barefoot. Then later on you tell us that you have a second who cannot go without shoes.

Why, exactly, do you then call my post "preachy" and "holier than thou" and a "witch hunt" for pointing out that in doesn't sound so clever to me that you have one horse shod and one unshod.

You made, as far as I can tell from your post, no effort whatsoever to find out if a change in food, management, work, etc would enable this horse to work without shoes.

And yet you set this thread up precisely to scoff at people who do and then throw your toys out of the pram when mildly challenged.

You can shoe your horse if you like, of course and I did NOT criticise that decision. What I criticised is you trumpetting how clever you were to have a barefoot horse who was easy to manage, whilst also having one who cannot do it at all and with which you have made no effort to find out why.
 
Lady La La said:
I would be much more inclined to listen to your views Cptrayes, if you wern't so closed minded. Yes, barefoot is great... but there is such a thing as a happily shod horse. There is such a thing as a horse that needs shoes. There is such a thing as a horse that requires studs.

:)
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You obviously haven't read this thread I started then. Note the date, too.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=405124


I am gobsmacked by the incredible number of people posting who insist that they are being "made to feel guilty" by those of us who simply give advice when people ask how to manage their barefoot horses. I'm sorry chaps, but I think you need to look inside yourselves for the answer to this one, because no-one is making you, or trying to make you, feel anything at all.
 
SusieT said:
'How do we as owners know who is truly a capable farrier before treatment starts?' same applies to trimmers
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I have no idea how you know who is a truly capable farrier but it is easy to find out who is a capable trimmer. You do what everyone should do before hiring one and that is to ask for references, follow them up and go and look at horses they have trimmed and what those horses have achieved. Then you are in a position to make your mind up if they are suitable for you.
What matters with a barefoot trimmer is not how long it took to get their quallifications, not whether they have done an online nutrition course or anything else but what they can actually produce for you. Put plainly can they get your horse performing barefoot to your requirements. Producing that may involve diet advice, advice on exercise, advice on management and perhaps even trimming.
 
rhino said:
However they managed to gloss over/ignore where the same article it repeatedly stated that it made no difference to treatment and that remedial farriery with a capable farrier was still the 'gold standard'. It wasn't even mentioned in the thread as I remember.

Science doesn't work like that, you can't pick up little bits you agree with and simply ignore the rest. You don't have to agree with it, but you do have to consider it :)

Unless we get some decent quality research in equines it's all conjecture anyway :cool:
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There is no valid science whatsoever that supports the use of remedial farriery for the resolution of caudal hoof pain. None. There has been some with tiny numbers and no control groups, i.e. with no scientific validity whatsoever.

It makes no difference to treatment because the people doing the treatment only ever think of using remedial farriery.

"gold standard"? Only by custom and practice, not though any research.

It won't last that way for much longer. Soon we will have so many horses which were recommended to be put down or retired out there working without shoes on that it simply can't be ignored how much more successful it is than remedial shoeing at resolving caudal hoof lameness.
 
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SusieT said:
'(even sound horses that have been cured by shoes..) so I think you must allow the same attitude in reverse to bug other people.
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Sound horses which were lame through caudal hoof pain are not "cured by shoes" if they are still lame with caudal hoof pain when the bar shoes/wedges/pads are removed. Those horses tend to deteriorate over time.

Barefoot horses with caudal hoof pain who come sound, on the other hand, are cured. Those horses tend not to deteriorate over time, but to become more and more capable until they end up doing at least as much as they were doing before they ever went lame.
 
I wasn't referring to a caudal hoof pain horse but one discussed on the forum earlier this week. You think horses that are sound in shoes aren't sound unless they march off sound when shoes are taken off and tend to then call them 'low grade laminitics' or otherwise-I see a sound horse in shoes and my view is that horse is sound.
 
SusieT said:
I wasn't referring to a caudal hoof pain horse but one discussed on the forum earlier this week. You think horses that are sound in shoes aren't sound unless they march off sound when shoes are taken off and tend to then call them 'low grade laminitics' or otherwise-I see a sound horse in shoes and my view is that horse is sound.
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Susie if you are going to tell me what I think please do get it right :rolleyes:

I think no such thing. Many horses are not sound immediately the shoes have been taken off and it would be quite ridiculous of me to have said anything else. Which is why I never have.
 
"I am gobsmacked by the incredible number of people posting who insist that they are being "made to feel guilty" by those of us who simply give advice when people ask how to manage their barefoot horses. I'm sorry chaps, but I think you need to look inside yourselves for the answer to this one, because no-one is making you, or trying to make you, feel anything at all."

You have never at any point made me feel guilty about anything. What would there be for me to feel guilty about :confused:
 
SusieT said:
There is but you choose to ignore it.. I've posted it before. At least there is some studies of the effect.
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Are you saying that there is research which shows the efficacy of shoes Susie? There is none that I know of which meets the requirements of scientific validity, which is that there must be a decent sample size and a carefully matched decent sized control group.

If you know of any please point me to it.

But if you are going to point me to a study telling me that bar shoes made ten navicular horses less lame, then I can tell you that study is scientifically completely worthless if it cannot also tell me that those horses are sounder than they would be without any shoes on at all and track the progress of both groups over time.

So if that's the research you know about, save your fingers because it's not worth the paper it's printed on.

There is, on the other hand, a PhD paper, by a farrier no less, indicating that studs are likely to be positively harmful. Have you read that one?
 
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better to be legless than shoeless lol, my lil barefooter non shoed or whichever you want to call her.i just call her beautiful, well she was great without shoes but then had a bout of illness and Ive been advised she will prob now need front shoes. Thats what yer good farrier for, to give the right advice, we dont know unless we spend all our hours looking at all there different feet and diets and config...... get the idea, leave it to a good farrier and listen to advice, do what best by each horse you lucky enough to have, any one else use darren claxton or heard of him?, norfolk area, he great farrier!!
 
Rubyruby, I just checked your other posts and found your horse was laminitic and that is why the farrier wants to shoe her?
 
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Yes Hi, She had a bout (her first) in Feb when her field not growing and my vet and farrier had to bang heads a bit and she was a classic case of having every tendancy suitable for getting it, ie she was holding a fat layer, not stupid but enough! She is a good doer, infact bloody looks at food and pounds up, her feet had got a little long, farrier comes every 8 but she seemed to have an extra spurt, I had some richer hay than her normal, all these together is all we can come up with for her going down, when I saw about crumbly feet this was only problem she got left with. sheis now 98pc there, farrier due next friday. he coming every 4 at mo. her laminaie were starting to seperate and chucking her hoof up too.
 
nope, I've read papers on studs but not I think a phd by a farrier. do please send it my way-I like to read all the research I can. I've shown you the study and you promptly went silent on another thread so I'd have to go dig it out again to discuss the merits of it. It's a bit rich to comment on anyone elses scientific validity when you have none? All anybody has ever said is that we'd like to see peer reviewed scientific studies into barefoot rather than just anecdotal evidence.
The point of peer review is that it goes past a panel of experts who decide if it is scientifically valid enough to be published. Now that may be despite having flaws. So I'm afraid I'll take their opinion before yours on whether it is worth the paper its written on. It's all about adding to the evidence.
Now, say you did a paper about barefoot is better for navicular, and followed a similar protocol, people would say oh, look at this, a paper that looks at x. Oh that's interesting, they got good results. Ok, the study has x y and z limitations, but it's got enough science and reasonable actions behind it to be published and add to the evidence about horses feet. It's just that anecdotal evidence can't be used because it is totally unverified and lets take for exmaple anecdotal evidence that the oldest person in india is 122 years. Except, they're dead so when it is scientifically verified, that is known to be incorrect or not verifiable. That's what we(well I anyway!) mean when we say evidence.
 
SusieT said:
I've shown you the study and you promptly went silent on another thread so I'd have to go dig it out again to discuss the merits of it.
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I have no recollection of this and surely you realise by now that it is not my style to go silent because I don't like what I read? I will always comment. I can only suggest that I missed your post, I spend a lot of time on this forum but I don't live on it. Please point me to it again.

SusieT said:
It's a bit rich to comment on anyone elses scientific validity when you have none? All anybody has ever said is that we'd like to see peer reviewed scientific studies into barefoot rather than just anecdotal evidence.
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Quite. My point entirely.

Time and again people demand scientific evidence that barefoot works and ignore the fact that there is none at all for shoes. I'd like to see peer reviewed scientifically valid studies that show that shoes don't adversely affect horses' hooves, and that shoes are the best solution for laminitis and caudal hoof lameness. They don't exist.
 
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