Am I not with the times?

[FfionWinnie]

It's amazing what utter rubbish footage people use in adverts for horses of any price. If he is as amazing as described why not use the best pics you can get of the horse to show this. A picture paints a thousand words. These days nearly everyone has a smart phone which will take a decent pic. If you want the money you have to go the distance imo.

 

[ycbm]

That's why this area of the market is poorly served by pro producers it's a hard thing to produce quickly and pro riders struggle to have empathy with this type of rider .
Horses who have this talent 'in them ' are special horses .

I wouldn't pay a premium for a quality horse with this ability, because nobody knows until you put a nervous rider on a horse for six months whether any horse has it. Some riders can make a nervous wreck of any horse. The safest bet for this kind of rider is a horse with very thick legs, because then even if it does react it will be slower than a 'quality' horse.

Of course producers won't normally sell quality horses with this kind of promise. It's a recipe for losing your reputation and having ruined horses returned to you.

But the horse originally in question isn't even a quality TB, from the photos.

 

[ycbm]

It's amazing what utter rubbish footage people use in adverts for horses of any price. If he is as amazing as described why not use the best pics you can get of the horse to show this. A picture paints a thousand words. These days nearly everyone has a smart phone which will take a decent pic. If you want the money you have to go the distance imo.

It's extraordinary, isn't it? The jumping picture is an unhappy horse. The stood sideways one is a horse who can't stand on his back legs properly. The schooling shots are fuzzy and very average. And I'm with you, in the ridiculous 12 seconds of walk video clip, the horse is taking uneven length strides on the back and twists its hocks. How they expect it to sell at that price, no matter what kind of saint it is to ride, I don't understand.

 

[Goldenstar]

I wouldn't pay a premium for a quality horse with this ability, because nobody knows until you put a nervous rider on a horse for six months whether any horse has it. Some riders can make a nervous wreck of any horse. The safest bet for this kind of rider is a horse with very thick legs, because then even if it does react it will be slower than a 'quality' horse.


Of course producers won't normally sell quality horses with this kind of promise. It's a recipe for losing your reputation and having ruined horses returned to you.

But the horse originally in question isn't even a quality TB, from the photos.

The fact you won't pay a premium for a safe hack is entirely irrelevant.
TBH a lot of people won't pay a premium for a special horse full stop that's just a choice .

 

[ycbm]

Everything in life is a choice. Unsurprisingly to me, no-one seems to be in a hurry to choose the horse that's been advertised as such a saint to ride, that the thread is about.

 

[ester]

I have no doubt he is safe, but he is currently being ridden by a pro rider for the most part so no reason to have had his confidenced bashed or chance taking the mickey. Mine is safe as but I'm not sure he would be after 6 months of novice ownership!

Anyway as said previously given most people have to keep their horses on livery box walking means it is an absolute no from me anyway. And who knows If he is so chilled to ride if he does have to be stabled.

 

[ihatework]

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Most horses are safe with a confident and relaxed rider. A nervous and hesitant rider can turn the calmest if horses into a bag of nerves and that is where dealers have their work cut out. How do you replicate a nervous rider?

And it's those horses that can cope with the nervous who are highly sought after.
I've just bought one to produce who I'm hoping will fit into that category (plus with ability for more if needed) but trust me, they are not easy to find if they have a bit of quality about them

That said the horse in OP isn't really jumping out at me and I wouldn't be looking at him for that market at that price. Of course he could be worth every penny.

 

[D66]

One advantage of owning an ex-racehorse is that it will have been professionally handled as a youngster and so have decent manners on the ground. Granted you may have to avoid the broken down and burnt out examples but there are fantastic horses, trainable, with stamina, and with paces and scope to perform in many different competitive fields.
It can be a bit of a gamble, but then buying any horse is that.

 

[ester]

That's where price comes in though as to whether it as a whole 'worth the risk'

 

[Queenbee]

What price do you put on a safe animal? and every animal has 'one' thing you learn to live with. . . .

Look, I have had a box walker, had a hard to catch little weasel, a hard to load irritant, and currently the yak does love to smack his jaw repeatedly on the stable door for attention - despite never being given reward for it! And yes, you do learn to cope/live with it. Would I in a million years have been without Ebony? No, never - she was my horse of a lifetime, but the one thing I couldn't stand was the box walking - it drove me insane and when I bought her I had no idea she would be a walker.


Yes, you learn to live with it, but you can not say it does not depreciate the value. For a start - box walking comes with certain limitations and consequences to the owner. If stabled, then you will be using a truck load more bedding. If not then you need 24 hr turnout all year round... this brings with it limitations of where the horse can be kept in terms of yards. Take away the general irritation of a walker and there are far more practical implications that would put purchasers off.

What price would I put on a safe animal... well to me that is a very broad question because I could go and pick up a safe horse for 10k or I could go and pick one up for 1k here - in fact I have purchased the most amazing 'safe' animal for £600 in the past, turned out to be a fab hack, show, hunt and competition horse. Great in the stable and out, great in company and alone, safe with adults, children, dogs, chickens, pigs, traffic. Good to shoe, clip, box... So... what price would I put on a safe animal - If I say £600 I limit myself, if I say 10k, I limit myself.

Its the misconception and expectation that you can only get a safe horse if you have a budget of thousands that is misleading. Moreover, that you can only get a safe horse with 'potential' and talent for thousands, whereas the truth is that they can be found for any budget. And if I had 4k to spend, I could get a lot more for my money than that particular horse.

 

[Queenbee]

If that were so why is it so difficult for people who are not competitive to find quality horses who hack well and safely , and it is diffcult at one time I knew many people from outside my circle who had got into riding for leisure purposes often as adults they don't want or know how to school a horse they are afraid them selves and need a horse whose 'got their back 'and they found it very hard to find a horse .
Horses who will do that job have a value and so they should .
4K is nothing to part with for a horse get that safe feeling from and that the advertised figure he will sell for less than that .
Of course most horses are 'safe ' but this horse is being marketed as being very special in the hacking area and if the ad is honest ( the poster who knows the yard seemed to think they are honest sellers ) that puts this horse in a bracket above normal can hack out horses .
I also loath the arrogance you get in competitive riders that only horses who have BD medium or BE novice can have value many riders have no interest in buying a horse who can jump 1.15 from gallop and no interest in spending hours in the school learning how to go sideways ( and sound horses that do this available at 4K are few )
The things they want to do are different and horses who do them well have value to them that they don't to riders who want to do other things .

Yes I know he is advertised as good in the hacking area, but in all honesty I wouldn't say he is 'very special' in that department. Every single horse I have owned has hacked well alone and in company and led hacks with children. Granted the beast can be a bit narky so I would not want to ride and lead him, and my first pony did like to jog, but to me in general - these are pretty standard things - there are more horses that are good to hack out than those who spin, plant, bolt or hate traffic, and every single horse I have ever owned - I could ride on the buckle on a hack no matter how highly strung they could be.

So, yes he is good to hack - and that is a bonus, no contesting that - but he is being sold as more than just a good to hack horse. I don't believe that anyone is saying that only horses who have BD medium or BE novice can have value, or certainly I am not. However, he is being sold as a potential competition horse and as such people are saying that for competition - they would want a horse that has started getting out to illustrate that potential for that price. Or would want a lesser price for a punt on a horse that may or may not actually have the potential.

Pictures and words also play a huge part - now, the ad says he has won his first dressage test - where are some good smart pictures? If you are going to advertise a horse for this money as a potential comp horse - take him out once (once is all it takes) look smart, take some good photos, jumping, dressage etc. we can all find a mediocre picture out there of us schooling or jumping at home - that may be picky, but to advertise a horse as a competition prospect - I would be very attentive to first impressions and be putting up photos that gave the impression of competition prospect. :/

Finally, I truly know so many horses that are good to hack in the ways described - I actually struggle at the moment to think of one that is not - some of them are happy hackers, some competition horses, some hunters and show horses. When I say I struggle to think of one that is not - there are a few that their owners/riders would swear were not good in traffic - but, others who ride them have had no issue, the problem lies with the owners/riders who is tense, nervous and therefore causes the issue with these horses. I am lucky, Both Ebony and Ben (a handful in their own unique ways) were/are great to hack, more than that - they are the wonderful types that can come in after 3 months of nothing - you can jump straight on and off you go. I see so many good hacking horses, excellent hacking horses really - given a bad name because of tense nervous riders, inappropriate management - over feeding, over stabling, badly fitting tack and the horses are labelled as the problem. I have also seen wonderful horses advertised as safe hacks - ridden at the sellers yard, purchased and taken home only to behave like total hooligans - the problem - they knew their old routes - they felt familiar and they are totally out of their comfort zone - these are not bad horses or bad hacks - there are IMO far more horses out there that are 'safe' than given credit for. I have ridden some prize twonks in my years - but all of them have been excellent to hack.

 

[ycbm]

There's a new video up on this ad and I can't see any way in the world he's worth what they are asking. He definitely isn't 'ready for Novice' dressage and he looks like an almost unrehabilitated racehorse both jumping and schooling. He's quiet with traffic with a confident handler but he does shrink back from a tractor and a lorry, and looks to me like a horse who could very easily be 'taught' to be afraid of traffic.

Don't know why I keep looking (and commenting) really. It just fascinates me a bit to see whether they actually sell him at that price.

 

[FfionWinnie]

I can hardly bear to watch that video with it's annoying music, portrait filming and miles away horse so half the time it could be any animal. I agree also it looks completely unschooled over fences fairly nervous in traffic and it's not remotely worth the money.

I do think if it was good in traffic and working well in whatever you were aiming for, then it could easily be worth that, being an ex racer isn't the problem here at all, it's being an untrained horse with "potential" that limits the horse. Everything has potential, the value is in what it is doing right now!

 

[ycbm]

I agree FW. If he was what he is described as, he's worth the money. A quiet hack ready to do a BE 80, basically. But he's not. Apparently this is a dealer. I would have thought she'd be more realistic. My guess is from the ad that she really is fond of the horse and not too worried at the moment whether he sells or not. I wonder how many people, me included, wouldn't even consider a box walker?


I have the sound off, I had no idea about the music!

 

[FfionWinnie]

I had it off by 1/4 of the way through

I'm still astounded that that vid is the best anyone can do. When I come to sell a pony I've got excellent footage usually taken from the back of another horse often leading another child on another pony at the same time so surely a dealer should be able to come up with something better than they have.

 

[Goldenstar]

The poor quality of photos and footage on ads is an something that constantly surprises me and it's not only on ads for cheap horses.
Why have footage and show non of the horse trotting straight towards the person doing the filming I now just assume the horse does not move straight

 

[ycbm]

The poor quality of photos and footage on ads is an something that constantly surprises me and it's not only on ads for cheap horses.
Why have footage and show non of the horse trotting straight towards the person doing the filming I now just assume the horse does not move straight

It's very surprising, isn't it ? I bought my most expensive horse after knocking five grand of the price because they weren't getting any interest in him. They put up video of him yawing at the bit and nodding like an oil rig at every step. It didn't seem to occur to them to put up new video after they'd taken his wolf teeth out!

 

[FfionWinnie]

The poor quality of photos and footage on ads is an something that constantly surprises me and it's not only on ads for cheap horses.
Why have footage and show non of the horse trotting straight towards the person doing the filming I now just assume the horse does not move straight

Exactly. My new horse wasn't cheap and was sold by a dealer. He wasn't able to show me any decent footage of the horse despite the fact he has a good record jumping up to 1.30 and has done a fair amount of dressage successfully with one of their riders while he was there. I honestly don't get it. He totally undersold the horse (I've had him 5 months and he's better than my wildest dreams!). I had found more out by googling the horse than the dealer actually knew. . So it's not always that the horse isn't able it's some weird thing where people think "that'll do" or they can't look at footage and think ah yes that isn't it going at its best. Any video I watch I assume that is the absolute best the horse can do!

Had I not gone to try the horse blind, I may not have bothered!

 

[Pinkvboots]

I can't understand anyone that advertises a horse for that money and the advert picture is of it laying in a field big mistake in my book I wouldn't even bother looking any further, the other pictures are really not great and I don't like the wording, and as the horse is not happy being stabled that would put me off I have had 2 now that stress if they think they should be out and it's a pita.

 

[ester]

His x pole technique doesn't really inspire confidence for tackling solid fences ATM.

 

[milliepops]

So it's not always that the horse isn't able it's some weird thing where people think "that'll do" or they can't look at footage and think ah yes that isn't it going at its best. Any video I watch I assume that is the absolute best the horse can do!

^^this. It's weird isn't it?! My YO is selling one at the moment but the photos she has of him jumping are not representative of his (good) technique, they are bad strides or awkward leaps rather than the knees up snappy bascule that he can do from a good canter I've been helping her get some better flat video as the stuff she had made my eyes bleed, he's a nice chap but the first ad was completely off putting. People are odd!

I guess it's related to the problem of critically evaluating your own horse, you know it inside out, know the positive stuff so don't always see the negatives that could be perceived? Bit like the confo thread on here recently, I know I can't take a good photo of my sec D for toffee as she always looks 'wrong' in photos compared to how I see her IRL... seems easier to get representative photos of other people's horses :wink3:

 

[ihatework]

His x pole technique doesn't really inspire confidence for tackling solid fences ATM.

What, you don't fancy a potential rotational when his knees hit it first

 

[Apercrumbie]

As described, he's worth it. Agreed that they need to get better photos/video!

I find the safe hack concept interesting, simply because contrary to what most are saying on here, I don't know that many. All of my horsey friends hack, but it seems normal to them that their horse is terrified of tractors and leaps around like an idiot trying to get away from it. Or that their horse regularly spooks out into the road. Do I have an unrealistic expectation of a safe hacking horse to have reasonable and manageable reactions to fear that won't potentially get me killed?

 

[smja]

All of my horsey friends hack, but it seems normal to them that their horse is terrified of tractors and leaps around like an idiot trying to get away from it. Or that their horse regularly spooks out into the road

Some people think all horse react like that, because they've never seen one that doesn't. It's all about your expectations - we expect ours to handle almost everything, but some people we hack with are all for turning round at the mere hint of something unexpected so their horses never meet anything new.

I do also know a few people who seem to engage in some kind of "my horse is more dangerous than your horse" competition, every time they hack out they return with tales of mortal peril - sounds flipping exhausting!

 

[Queenbee]

As described, he's worth it. Agreed that they need to get better photos/video!

I find the safe hack concept interesting, simply because contrary to what most are saying on here, I don't know that many. All of my horsey friends hack, but it seems normal to them that their horse is terrified of tractors and leaps around like an idiot trying to get away from it. Or that their horse regularly spooks out into the road. Do I have an unrealistic expectation of a safe hacking horse to have reasonable and manageable reactions to fear that won't potentially get me killed?

I agree, some people expect that as the norm - and there are also some that infuse the horse with their own nervous attitude - I know one such person - she will readily admit that she is not the most confident rider yet blames her perfectly decent horse for the spookiness on hacks when really she sets the horse up to fail... Am definitely not saying this is the case with you though - I think its a shame that you have that experience of it being considered the norm with people you know. I think perhaps the opposite can be said down my way, the expectation is that horses learn that there is nothing bad about big buses, lorries, tractors and so on... we are certainly lucky in the area I live in as we are right next to Culdrose - the horses in this neck of the woods are used to planes/jets and helicopters flying low overhead everyday - which certainly helps their attitude when out on the road.

Some people think all horse react like that, because they've never seen one that doesn't. It's all about your expectations - we expect ours to handle almost everything, but some people we hack with are all for turning round at the mere hint of something unexpected so their horses never meet anything new.

I do also know a few people who seem to engage in some kind of "my horse is more dangerous than your horse" competition, every time they hack out they return with tales of mortal peril - sounds flipping exhausting!

God me too - they seem to take pride in the fact that their horse is 'hard to handle, ride, hack' etc... I have always lived by the rule of thumb that if I drop down dead tomorrow - I want to know that my horse will not end up in a sticky situation because of it someones frustration with its behavior

 

[Bernster]

As described, he's worth it. Agreed that they need to get better photos/video!

I find the safe hack concept interesting, simply because contrary to what most are saying on here, I don't know that many. All of my horsey friends hack, but it seems normal to them that their horse is terrified of tractors and leaps around like an idiot trying to get away from it. Or that their horse regularly spooks out into the road. Do I have an unrealistic expectation of a safe hacking horse to have reasonable and manageable reactions to fear that won't potentially get me killed?

Slightly off track from the original post but I thought this was an interesting observation. I think some people have unrealistic expectations as horses are live animals, and flight ones at that, so there is always a risk of some kind of spook, shy, nap etc. However, to advertise a horse as a safe hack I think they do need to be pretty reliable reliable in most situations and not too mental in exceptional situations. That's a fairly tall order but there are plenty of good hacks out there ime - plenty of people on the yards I've been at have had fairly dependable hackers (inc me). So no, I don't think your version of a safe hack is unrealistic!