Annoyed at livery - would you be?

[milliepops]

i fully understand the people saying that as a full livery you pay to be able to hand the horse over and not have to worry, YO will sort it. But I think OP is right to be concerned, now and then there are threads about horses on full or retirement livery where you *should* be able to leave them to it but it goes wrong... experience shows that apparently good yards aren't always that great when you probe a bit deeper. it's responsible of the OP to want to check this out, i think- I agree with LegOn that a breezy approach is probably more appropriate than going in guns blazing esp as it seems to be an arrangement that's been working well.

i had a near miss at last yard, I had provided chain headcollar for my thug horse as YO did morning turnout, only to be told by another livery that he'd been chasing her - loose - around the slippery concrete yard which was open at both ends to the lane, because he had tried to lead her with a rope around her neck and she had buggered off (totally predictable). YO obviously thought he knew better than me, and then figured I'd never find out. well, it WAS fine, but if it had happened again and there had been an accident - horse runs through wheelbarrow pile, falls off edge into muck heap pit or out onto road for instance, I'd have been absolutely raging especially as i know myself that it had happened before (and was not ever disclosed by YO who continued with the neck rope marlarky).

rambling now, but anyway, it all comes under due diligence as an owner paying for services, I think, to check this stuff out and want to be kept informed.

 

[Gruntled]

Wow, sorry I didn't expect all these responses! I'll reply generally here...

I completely understand where YM is coming from, I do really understand and appreciate that. At no point do I think it is out of bad intent, or carelessness. I hadn't seen it from the POV that it could risk me breaking quarantine - honestly that hadn't occurred to me, but I guess I'm a goodie goodie and that wouldn't even occur to me! But I still feel like YM should have made a conscious effort to have spoken with me - I informed then when my quarantine would be over. As it is I haven't had any contact from them, I've seen them passingly on the yard and said hello but it's usually been when I am busy and they are busy - I've wanted to bring it up and speak but haven't found an opportune moment, usually when I put down whatever it is I was doing to then go over and distantly ask, they've disappeared. I do want to speak with them calmly and ask and mention I would have preferred to have known. I'm not angry as such, more hurt and confused. I would have thought being on full livery that yes, they are dealing with the stress for me, but they are also looking after my very cherished (and let's be honest, pricey) 'pet', and that I should be kept informed of what happens. e.g if she's off her feed one day, or looking a little footy.

So, I was told by another livery who helped with the incident. Said livery rents a stable on a DIY basis and so was down during the day, and helped with the grooms when it happened. They didn't mention it in a bitchy way - they made a comment about how good my mare was when it happened. I didn't know what they were talking about, and they then said oh I was told you were going to be contacted when you were coming back after quarantine. It then happened that the grooms who work there were on the yard and explained what happened. I was surprised but thanked them profusely and was relieved nothing had happened, it's only since thinking on it that I realised I'm a little upset I wasn't told. I think I was told on maybe my second day back to the yard? I'm losing track of days in this lockdown in all honesty.

My understanding is they aren't sure what happened, but that during a bit of a play in the field, one of the mares might have crashed through some of the tape or a post. Either way the fencing was fine and then it wasn't - it wasn't my mare jumping a fence or an open gateway or anything.

After sleeping on it, I agree I am probably over reacting re moving. I'm just very surprised and hurt I wasn't told. YM knew I was keeping well as I told them I would update them if it changed and my return date changed and I wouldn't be able to get down to see my girl.

 

[tatty_v]

I completely sympathise. My boy would often cause havoc whilst I was away at work and the (very experienced) lady who helped me with him always thought it was best for me not to know what he was up to. By contrast I always preferred to know, even if there was nothing I could have done about it and no harm done. I remember one of my livery friends saying “you’re going to have to tell her he’s been on another jolly otherwise how are you going to explain the mud encrusted lead rope?!”

Hopefully this is just a case of two different (but valid) perspectives and can be easily talked over ?

 

[Flicker]

Sometimes events like these are a really useful way to set parameters in a productive and non-confrontational way: glad nobody was hurt, nice to hear my horse was a good girl, in future please do let me know. While I don’t currently have a horse, the other thing that I would do if I had been off the yard for any length of time is to actively ask YM and staff whether my horse has been good, and how things have been generally. This opens up the opportunity for them to tell me about anything untoward that’s happened.

 

[Merrymoles]

I wondering if, because it was dealt with effectively without any harm to any of the horses, the YO has just filed it under "over" in her head, which is why you haven't been sought out and told.

I wouldn't move if I was generally happy with care and maintenance etc but I would have a calm chat with the YO along the lines of "how come you didn't tell me about the horses getting out?".

I'm on DIY and we don't tell each other everything that happens unless there is a positive reason to. For example, if a friend's horse got loose for some reason when I was bringing in and I retrieved it and put it to bed, I would probably not even think to mention it to the owner unless there was a further issue, such as an injury or dangerous behaviour.

I think we all have different ideas of what is an issue and what isn't and the YO maybe isn't seeing this the same way as you.

 

[Cowpony]

Just to put it from the YM's perspective, if it happened a week ago and the fence has been fixed she's probably virtually forgotten about it, and certainly won't remember who knows about it and who doesn't. On a busy yard it's really difficult to remember who told you what and who you told about what - and I'm not even a YM. Sometimes you think you've told everybody, and only find out later that somebody didn't know. It's nice that they care enough about you to not want to stress you out. I think I'd have been more stressed about getting a message like this and not being able to go up and check for myself than hearing about it second hand but knowing that my horse was fine because I'd seen her with my own eyes.

As above, I'd just have a quiet word and say thank you for not wanting to stress me out at a difficult time, really appreciate it, but actually I'd rather know about incidents in real time in future. It's just me, I get more stressed about not being told than knowing about it etc etc

 

[fidleyspromise]

I would not be moving yards but I would bring it up friendly with ym and say I heard x happened but horses all ok. Could you let me know in future if anything similar happens so I can check my horse fir my own piece of mind?

I worked on a yard and a horse was running around and jumped the stone wall in the middle of the field while playing with other geldings and we were told not to say anything to horse owner as she is "neurotic" about her horse and would complain.
I was shocked that it was to be such a big secret when its horses being horses but when my pony got penned in at gate and jumped it on my day off I was told about that and was thankful as it meant I could thoroughly check her for any injury.

 

[Nicnac]

I think you are right to be pi**ed off you weren't told when you returned to the yard but not about not being told at the time. It was in effect a non-event and agree with PP's that the YO has probably forgotten about it rather than consciously keeping you in the dark.

I can't understand why, once you knew about it, you didn't speak to the YO/YM about it? I don't think it's grounds for moving and you are slightly overreacting on that front.

 

[PurBee]

The only reason id want to be told about any incident is because if my horse suddenly behaves strange around gates and freaks out, and i was never told he got tangled in a gate, i won‘t know the cause of his behaviour, how to correct it and would probably end up going on a circus ride with scoping for ulcers, vet disgnosis of pain etc.

We have to know about all incidents as it’ll reflect in their future behaviour.

While accepting accidents happen, gates get left open etc etc...
I suspect many yards dont disclose issues as they dont want the blame finger pointed at them. Yet ultimately it shouldnt be about blame, horses will be horses, but about transparency of information.

I would need to know about mild colic, despite easy recovery, it helps to tell me his gut is sensitive and prone, id be more cautious etc etc.

 

[Shilasdair]

Would I be annoyed? No.

No harm done.
In life you can make some choices to be angry/upset or to count your blessings that no harm is done.
I suggest that doing the latter makes for a happier life.

 

[Shilasdair]

I used to work with a department whose boss used to make blu tac (sp?) effigies of the colleagues that annoyed her, then torture them with drawing pins/paper clips etc.
Perhaps that would work for you, OP?

 

[canteron]

I suspect the problem is you feel ‘excluded’ rather than the specific situation?
I am a little bit if a control freak with my horses - so when I go away I ask the person looking after my horse to send me a daily pic and note - then I don’t feel upset.
So maybe, take a deep breath, forgive them, but in future similar situations find a way to keep you informed and manage your need to be in control (this isn’t a criticism it’s common with us horse people?)

 

[honetpot]

I would be peed off. You are responsible for your horses welfare and the bills that go with it. Apart from a breach of trust, they are only a appointed guardian because you are not there, how can you asses any injury or charge in behaviour if you are not aware of the circumstances, and who would pay any future potential vets bill. I would worry that they did not have a process in places to review their risk assessments, how can any changes that be may or not be implemented if no one is aware, it's not just about your horse but the potential damage to other people or their property. I would want at least to be told by phone, and what changes if needed, had been made to prevent it happening again.
I was once asked to sign a livery agreement that absolved the YM all responsibility for any injury to my horse, even if they were at fault, which is breaks contract law. I think some YM are not aware of their responsibilities. I hope they have a incident book for their insurance.
It depends on how far you want to take it, I would think about it. Life is full of thinking about what ifs, what if they decide, if you are not there to do or not do other things.

 

[Fedupoflivery]

Even if this happened on diy livery I’d still expect to be told. Even if it was a few days later once everything had settled down. Obviously if the horse had got hurt I’d of expected to be told immediately and kept informed every step of the way, especially if a vet was needed. You should hear these things from the people you’re paying your money to and entrusting the care of your horse.

 

[MuddyMonster]

I'm on part livery and would still expect to be told about things like this.

It's all very well saying 'no harm done' but my horse has had laminitis and as a result, I'm very careful about the amount of concussion he's exposed to. I'd want to know that something 'out of the ordinary' like this had happened so I can be extra vigilant in my monitoring in case of any repercussions.

Even if he didnt, I'd still want to know. If they were keeping this from me, I'd begin to question what else they hadn't mentioned.

I can understand not wanting to alarm you when you were unwell, but at the very least, I'd expect them to have told me about it face to face.

 

[Gruntled]

I suspect the problem is you feel ‘excluded’ rather than the specific situation?
I am a little bit if a control freak with my horses - so when I go away I ask the person looking after my horse to send me a daily pic and note - then I don’t feel upset.
So maybe, take a deep breath, forgive them, but in future similar situations find a way to keep you informed and manage your need to be in control (this isn’t a criticism it’s common with us horse people?)

No, it's not the exclusion and wanting control over her care - it's more echoing what a lot of other people have pointed out on here - it's context. In case my mare was then funny about going up that particular track, through the gate the next time, it would help if I knew what had happened. Thankfully she hasn't had lami in the past, but she could suddenly come up footy from the concussion or the likes. It's more the context and understanding why any aftermath might have happened. She's very sensitive, and actually has been a bit flighty on the path since - could be a coincidence, could be the cold, or it could be this included. Without knowing about it, I don't know how to approach her potential behaviour.

I don't really mind about the ins and outs of the little stuff during the day, but I wouldn't consider this a normal day on a yard. Or, I would hope it wasn't - if it was, I would be looking into my hypothetical yard's fencing!

I totally understand people saying maybe the YM thought it was 'over' and so didn't think much about it - that's true, and I can only imagine what other goings on running a yard must have. I know in my job, something which feels like a very big deal at the time can quickly get snowed under with other dramas landing in my inbox.

I am of course thankful that it all ended well, and as I've said, I'm more hurt I wasn't told than actually angry after my initial annoyance.

 

[Gruntled]

Would I be annoyed? No.

No harm done.
In life you can make some choices to be angry/upset or to count your blessings that no harm is done.
I suggest that doing the latter makes for a happier life.

I wholeheartedly agree. I usually take the stance that if it's a positive ending, there's not much to do but be thankful for that and think 'hey, at least it wasn't xyz scenario instead!' but this freaks me out in case there's something else that could have happened that I haven't been told about. She's on full livery because of my work commitments, I often don't see the staff as I'm there late in evenings - which they all know to be the case.

I'm not saying there's an enormous conspiracy where there are all these awful things happening every day, but if they are regularly escaping the field or the stables and the liveries aren't told, how are we able to make an informed decision around our horses' care, environment, and approach we take with them when we are exercising or investigating funny injuries/behaviour?

 

[Gruntled]

I used to work with a department whose boss used to make blu tac (sp?) effigies of the colleagues that annoyed her, then torture them with drawing pins/paper clips etc.
Perhaps that would work for you, OP?

Don't be silly I have a dart board and a printer

 

[Wishfilly]

I would be annoyed too. I agree it's sort of no harm, no foul, but I would expect to be told.

I wouldn't leave unless I was otherwise unhappy, but I would worry about what else I wasn't being told about.

 

[HorsesRule2009]

I think you are slightly over reacting, sorry.
Had your horse fell/been injured or caused damage or an accident yes I would have expected a phone call informing you . Otherwise no wouldn't have expected a call.

 

[Winters100]

I would also be a bit put out at not being told - but not enough to move from a yard which I was otherwise happy with. I think it could be easily solved by a quiet and calm word with YO or manager explaining that you would in future prefer to be informed about any such incidents. Remember - don't throw the baby out with the bathwater

 

[Boulty]

Years ago when I had my pony on full livery at a riding school I did not get told or expect to be told every time the horses hopped the fence into the wrong field. (They went thru phases of doing it a lot) I also didn't get told every single time nobody could catch my pony & he stayed out overnight (a semi-regular occurrence for first few years I had him). Did find out about the time they ended up on a nearby rugby field in the dead of night & YO was summoned to retrieve them though (I seem to remember part of the field having a brick wall that some drunk idiots decided to dismantle?)

These days yes I would expect to hear about any escape attempts (esp that involve leaving the property) as soon as is reasonably practicable. Wouldn't necessarily make me leave if all else ok but WORDS would be had

 

[Annagain]

I wholeheartedly agree. I usually take the stance that if it's a positive ending, there's not much to do but be thankful for that and think 'hey, at least it wasn't xyz scenario instead!' but this freaks me out in case there's something else that could have happened that I haven't been told about. She's on full livery because of my work commitments, I often don't see the staff as I'm there late in evenings - which they all know to be the case.

I'm not saying there's an enormous conspiracy where there are all these awful things happening every day, but if they are regularly escaping the field or the stables and the liveries aren't told, how are we able to make an informed decision around our horses' care, environment, and approach we take with them when we are exercising or investigating funny injuries/behaviour?

Has your mare ever had any unexplained injuries / funny behaviour while there?

If something else has happened (and we don't know it has), the outcome has obviously been the same (i.e. all's well that ends well) and there has been no need to tell you. Just look at the worry this has caused - if anything has happened in the past, they've saved you from that worry.

At which point does it become an incident they need to tell you about? In my opinion, in this instance, it would have been if she got injured (she didn't) if the horses had got onto the road (they didn't) or if you need do something to prevent it happening again (you don't).

If the horses are escaping regularly, you'd know - the staff would let something slip, a fellow livery would be there when it happens, a passing acquaintance would see them or people would be posting all over facebook about loose horses, The fact people were still talking about this one incident even after you got back a week later shows how they would be talking about other incidents if they had occurred. This was obviously a one off and you can't go through life thinking the worst all the time or you'll drive your self mad with worry.

You obviously trust them or you wouldn't have had your mare there for so long so trust that they tell you what you need to know and if they haven't told you, it's because there's nothing to tell.

 

[milliepops]

^ if the horses were escaping regularly and I found out via FB or idle chat between other people I would hit the roof!

 

[shamrock2021]

Honestly though that’s normal of full livery you only told something when there is a problem etc a sick horse. You wouldn’t be told if a horse got lose on the road. Unfortunately when you are on full livery you do lose that control over your horse . I do think you’re overreacting since there was nothing you can do about it. you couldn’t leave your home.

 

[ihatework]

Honestly though that’s normal of full livery you only told something when there is a problem etc a sick horse. You wouldn’t be told if a horse got lose on the road. Unfortunately when you are on full livery you do lose that control over your horse . I do think you’re overreacting since there was nothing you can do about it. you couldn’t leave your home.

I categorically disagree that it should be ‘normal’. Loosing communication and control to that degree should not happen. Any person offering full livery should be prepared to communicate problems/mishaps to the owner, it builds trust and transparency. However I accept far to many yards do not do this adequately.

An example I can bring to the table. I owned a nice young horse on part livery (everything except exercise). I arrive one evening after work to exercise the horse. Head groom comes over to me to tell me horse had an accident in field, they have checked him and he is fine. No worries, thanks for letting me know I say and toddle off to ride him. Tack up and get on in school. Immediately I know something is wrong, he is as stiff as a board and doesn’t want to move. Hop off and take him in. Groom sees me, I say horse doesn’t feel right, she says nothing.

At home later that evening I get a call from a fellow livery to see how horse is after his horrific accident. This was news to me ... turns out a WP was left unsupervised to put horses on the walker. They put my horse (known kicker) directly in front of a known biter. The inevitable happened and my horse got stuck by a back leg in the walker partition. They had to dismantle the entire thing to free him.

The following morning the yard owner even tried to deny it until I called them out. The horse ended up a write off, still to this day I don’t know why I didn’t sue the arse off their lying deceitful backsides.

 

[WelshD]

I think the thing that would most annoy me here is if I felt they were trying to hide the incident entirely.

Given that the livery said to you they were told not to say anything until you were back it looks more like they didn't want to worry you rather than that they wanted to bury the incident completely, I think this would stop me getting angry.

I'd simply say to the YO that you appreciate that they were trying not to bother you BUT you would like to be kept in the loop of all unusual occurrences in future

 

[shamrock2021]

I categorically disagree that it should be ‘normal’. Loosing communication and control to that degree should not happen. Any person offering full livery should be prepared to communicate problems/mishaps to the owner, it builds trust and transparency. However I accept far to many yards do not do this adequately.

An example I can bring to the table. I owned a nice young horse on part livery (everything except exercise). I arrive one evening after work to exercise the horse. Head groom comes over to me to tell me horse had an accident in field, they have checked him and he is fine. No worries, thanks for letting me know I say and toddle off to ride him. Tack up and get on in school. Immediately I know something is wrong, he is as stiff as a board and doesn’t want to move. Hop off and take him in. Groom sees me, I say horse doesn’t feel right, she says nothing.

At home later that evening I get a call from a fellow livery to see how horse is after his horrific accident. This was news to me ... turns out a WP was left unsupervised to put horses on the walker. They put my horse (known kicker) directly in front of a known biter. The inevitable happened and my horse got stuck by a back leg in the walker partition. They had to dismantle the entire thing to free him.

The following morning the yard owner even tried to deny it until I called them out. The horse ended up a write off, still to this day I don’t know why I didn’t sue the arse off their lying deceitful backsides.

That’s terrible you probably should have sued them unfortunately I find that was the norm in previous yards I have been to . My current yard is the only yard the I would be told straight away if there was a issue and the only yard I can trust .

 

[Auslander]

Honestly though that’s normal of full livery you only told something when there is a problem etc a sick horse. You wouldn’t be told if a horse got lose on the road. Unfortunately when you are on full livery you do lose that control over your horse . I do think you’re overreacting since there was nothing you can do about it. you couldn’t leave your home.

I don't know what sort of yards you're on, but as the owner of a yard with 12 full/part liveries - I can categorically say "Not on my yard!". My owners are always told if there has been an incident, whether there was an injury or not - and I think its really important to be transparent, so that the people who aren't able to visit regularly know that they can rely on me to be honest, to tell them if there's been a problem and to let them know what I'm planning to do to make sure it doesn't happen again. Every single one of my owners has as much or as little control over their horses management as they want - its their horse, not mine, and if they want it fed Percy Pigs every Wednesday and only mucked out clockwise - then that's what they get!

 

[Gruntled]

Has your mare ever had any unexplained injuries / funny behaviour while there?
.

She's a mare