Another fatal dog attack

[SadKen]

Once again, Sadken, having a license is not being proposed as a prevention of dog attacks, it is being put forward as part of a method to identify ALL dogs, or more pertinently all dog OWNERS, which is the very first step in trying to get people to take some frickin' responsibility for their dogs. Just as a driving license doesn't prevent car accidents, but does at least make it possible to identify those who cause them. I take it you're OK with that?

That’s what the chip does though - identifies the owner. And it’s attached to the dog. Which the licence is not. So what’s the point of the licence. And why would you think that the sort of person who isn’t already responsible for their dog is in any way going to be responsible for getting a licence?

I’m glad you acknowledge that it will have no impact on preventing dog attacks, but in that case, I don’t know why it’s being suggested repeatedly, as it is a tax on owning a dog, which will be used (if you’re right) to fund a small amount of enforcement on paying a tax to own a dog, not to actually help the current situation which is causing problems, which is dog attacks. And with all the limitations I have in my example up thread.

 

[twiggy2]

Why on earth would my dog need to be muzzled @Nasicus ?

True, I know. But this really, really doesn’t need a muzzle.

View attachment 123651

But what harm would it do her to wear a muzzle if all other dogs were muzzled?
If it meant that's dogs were visibly within the law or not it would be as mentioned a visible deterrent for other to avoid those not muzzle and far easier for the law to be upheld. No muzzle and yhe police or dog wrden can step in.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Microchips can be attached to many things - dog licences, pedigrees, registration documents, health tests, etc. All of my dogs are on the main breed database in Germany, I'm not sure what data is being stolen or used nefariously apart from if anyone wants to know their names, colours, pedigrees, health tests, microchip numbers etc.

 

[CorvusCorax]

But what harm would it do her to wear a muzzle if all other dogs were muzzled?
If it meant that's dogs were visibly within the law or not it would be as mentioned a visible deterrent for other to avoid those not muzzle and far easier for the law to be upheld. No muzzle and yhe police or dog wrden can step in.

That's it, there needs to be a national conversation/societal change where we ALL have to be involved, but no one actually has the appetite when it comes down to it. No point shouting for change and then not being willing to engage in any ourselves.

 

[AmyMay]

But what harm would it do her to wear a muzzle if all other dogs were muzzled?
If it meant that's dogs were visibly within the law or not it would be as mentioned a visible deterrent for other to avoid those not muzzle and far easier for the law to be upheld. No muzzle and yhe police or dog wrden can step in.

Because there’s such a thing as a step too far. And on the back of idiotic irresponsible breeders and owners of XL Bullies I absolutely do not see why my dog should be muzzled (and on a lead on the beach, in the middle of nowhere etc where I predominantly walk).

We don’t need a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Just some all round common sense.

 

[Tiddlypom]

We don’t need a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Just some all round common sense.

It’s been rather well established that common sense is very much lacking amongst many dog owners .

 

[Smitty]

My dog and I have been very lucky. He had a close shave with an Akita when he was young, has been cornered in a gateway on a country track as we turned a corner by a Greyhound and a Terrier (both muzzled) and a full on attack by a toothless Yorkie, all of which have left him unscathed.

I would be perfectly happy to muzzle him in public, even though he is not aggressive, if it means we can all be safe.

My friend has a dog that has attacked at least 4 times but doesn't muzzle as it might make her dog look nasty. It is

 

[SadKen]

Because there’s such a thing as a step too far. And on the back of idiotic irresponsible breeders and owners of XL Bullies I absolutely do not see why my dog should be muzzled (and on a lead on the beach, in the middle of nowhere etc where I predominantly walk).

We don’t need a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Just some all round common sense.

It’s been rather well established that common sense is very much lacking amongst many dog owners .

It is lacking.

But that won’t change. Let’s see how many XL bully owners will muzzle their dogs when they are required to by law.

‘I would muzzle my dog if everyone did so’. They won’t. Ever. The people who most need to, will not. Anyone who thinks muzzling is a good idea and doesn’t do it every time they leave the house currently, *why* don’t you muzzle now?

 

[Clodagh]

It would be tricky to work mine with muzzles on. .
I think leash laws should be enforced, that would be a huge start. But councils have no money. How could they raise some? Ah! I know, dog licensing. But that’s an infringement of our civil rights.
Dogs of recognised dangerous breeds should be muzzled, imo. The NI list is a start.

 

[Clodagh]

And dogs should be on leads in public places on the whole anyway. Not meaning when I walk my dogs round farmers fields, but if I took them into town or parks or pubs etc they should be leashed.

 

[Clodagh]

Anyone who thinks muzzling is a good idea and doesn’t do it every time they leave the house currently, *why* don’t you muzzle now?

Bizarre. So you are opposed to dog licensing as it’s invasive and won’t work yet I should muzzle my dog to take it round the field?

 

[Smitty]

Because there’s such a thing as a step too far. And on the back of idiotic irresponsible breeders and owners of XL Bullies I absolutely do not see why my dog should be muzzled (and on a lead on the beach, in the middle of nowhere etc where I predominantly walk).

We don’t need a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Just some all round common sense.

I believe your dog was attacked a few weeks ago, luckily by a dog you could boot away? I'm not sure a lot of dogs are so easily deterred. They are getting bigger and stronger with the breeds that are now becoming commonplace.

Do you not think that muzzling would make everyone safer?

 

[CorvusCorax]

It would be tricky to work mine with muzzles on. .
I think leash laws should be enforced, that would be a huge start. But councils have no money. How could they raise some? Ah! I know, dog licensing. But that’s an infringement of our civil rights.
Dogs of recognised dangerous breeds should be muzzled, imo. The NI list is a start.

There's no restricted breed list in NI, just the DDA breeds, it's in the Republic.

 

[stormox]

I don't think muzzling EVERY dog all the time is necessary. Dogs like to play ball, carry sticks, drink and eat if they want to. They have a right to an enjoyable life.
Just keeping all dogs on a lead would be a better rule, no one is going to let their dog attack someone while they are holding it. At least you would hope not!

 

[Smitty]

It is lacking.

But that won’t change. Let’s see how many XL bully owners will muzzle their dogs when they are required to by law.

‘I would muzzle my dog if everyone did so’. They won’t. Ever. The people who most need to, will not. Anyone who thinks muzzling is a good idea and doesn’t do it every time they leave the house currently, *why* don’t you muzzle now?

TBH I kind of agree here. If it's law for them to be muzzled I will happily comply and have muzzled in the past with a terrier from a rescue. I knew he would probably attack and erred on the side of caution.

But there are loads of dogs out there causing problems. Probably not chipped and more or less beyond the law. I can't see them being muzzled.

 

[Clodagh]

There's no restricted breed list in NI, just the DDA breeds, it's in the Republic.

Sorry… hope that wasn’t appallingly offensive to all those cross the water!

 

[Quigleyandme]

German residents are obliged to pay dog tax and a licence fee. The amount varies wildly depending on where you live but the one constant is a second dog costs more than the first dog. Dogs have to be on the leash in certain locations and in some places public liability insurance is mandatory. Keepers are legally responsible for any damage their dog causes to man or beast. The import of bully breeds is banned and ownership is strictly controlled. Paradoxically, neutering is considered mutilation and is prohibited by law.

 

[Smitty]

I don't think muzzling EVERY dog all the time is necessary. Dogs like to play ball, carry sticks, drink and eat if they want to. They have a right to an enjoyable life.
Just keeping all dogs on a lead would be a better rule, no one is going to let their dog attack someone while they are holding it. At least you would hope not!

But, a lot of the dogs that attack are too strong for their owners to hold. A lead is cosmetic.

 

[SilverLinings]

A short article in the Times today says that the Dogs Trust has reported an increase in the number of XL Bully owners who want to give up their dogs, and the number of XL Bullys for sale on Gumtree has increased by 40% since the plan for a ban was announced last week. Apparently a lot of the ads on Gumtree have details such as 'not to live with children' and 'needs experienced owner', so it turns out that a lot of owners aren't interested in keeping their dog once some effort is required, I just hope they don't replace their Bully with another dog.

If so many inadequate owners are disinterested in dog ownership once they need to muzzle train and fill in some paperwork (and pay for neutering), then maybe dog licenses (if properly enforced) would serve to deter a lot of them in the first place, and stop so many dogs ending up in miserable, uncaring homes.

 

[SilverLinings]

But, a lot of the dogs that attack are too strong for their owners to hold. A lead is cosmetic.

Which raises the question of whether their should be a weight threshold (or dogwner weight ratio) above which a muzzle should be worn as a lead isn't going to stop the dog attacking if it wants to.

But then there is the issue that some people are stronger than others, and there would be a lot of dogs around the threshold weight but not necessarily above it, which I suppose comes back again to the benefit of muzzling all dogs.

I have mainly owned cockers and have never owned an aggressive dog (but I have had my dogs attacked); I would not want to muzzle my dogs whenever they were in a public place, but I can see the value of imposing this if the number of fatal and serious attacks doesn't diminish.

 

[SadKen]

Bizarre. So you are opposed to dog licensing as it’s invasive and won’t work yet I should muzzle my dog to take it round the field?

To clarify: *I* don’t think a muzzle law would work for similar reasons to a dog licence law, but people on this thread are saying that they are leaning towards a blanket muzzle law, and would muzzle their dog if it was the law.

My question to those people is: if you think a muzzle law is a good idea, why don’t you muzzle your dog now?

 

[Smitty]

Unless it is the law, I would deem it unnecessary for my present dog, but have muzzled a previous dog, every time it went out.

 

[SilverLinings]

To clarify: *I* don’t think a muzzle law would work for similar reasons to a dog licence law, but people on this thread are saying that they are leaning towards a blanket muzzle law, and would muzzle their dog if it was the law.

My question to those people is: if you think a muzzle law is a good idea, why don’t you muzzle your dog now?

I don't currently own a dog; I muzzle my mother's dog when she stays with me but that is because she puts anything and everything she finds on walks in her mouth and usually swallows them.

I don't see why people who say they would comply if it was law need to be doing it now if they don't own dangerous dogs? They/we are just saying that if a blanket muzzle rule was the only way to reduce attacks by the dogs that are dangerous then we would accept it and comply.

 

[Gloi]

I would certainly feel a lot happier riding in some of the local places if dogs were muzzled and on leads.
The worst places are holiday lets down a bridleway where the people staying always seem to have out of control dogs running free.

 

[Moobli]

Compulsory muzzle and/or leash laws seem over the top and unfair on those dogs who are trained and under control. Tackle the irresponsible owners. Don’t penalise all for the ones who are causing the issues. Treat dog attacks as though the owner had used a weapon with heavy fines or strong penalties (dog removed, ban on ownership, prison time for owners of dogs that maim or kill). Bring back a dog licence with a sliding scale of cost depending on size and origins of breed/type. Make owners sit an exam if wanting to keep the larger guarding breeds.
As absolutely horrific as the deaths and serious attacks are, they are still a rare occurrence thankfully so let’s not use a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

 

[SilverLinings]

Compulsory muzzle and/or leash laws seem over the top and unfair on those dogs who are trained and under control. Tackle the irresponsible owners. Don’t penalise all for the ones who are causing the issues. Treat dog attacks as though the owner had used a weapon with heavy fines or strong penalties (dog removed, ban on ownership, prison time for owners of dogs that maim or kill). Bring back a dog licence with a sliding scale of cost depending on size and origins of breed/type. Make owners sit an exam if wanting to keep the larger guarding breeds.
As absolutely horrific as the deaths and serious attacks are, they are still a rare occurrence thankfully so let’s not use a sledgehammer to crack a nu

Re the bit I've bolded, absolutely, at the moment the legal repercussions of your dog attacking or killing someone are relatively tiny, even if you knew the risk due to the dog's previous history. The law doesn't seem to make the owner very responsible for the dog's behaviour when it goes wrong, and the punishment if it is another animal rather than a human that is harmed is ridiculously slight. If there is evidence that you knew your dog was a risk and it goes on to harm someone/another animal then the punishment for the owner should be similar to that for wielding a weapon IMO.

ETA harming someone else's dog (or a horse or other animal) should not be treated the same as damaging property, I really think the law needs to recognise it as being more significant.

 

[Tiddlypom]

As absolutely horrific as the deaths and serious attacks are, they are still a rare occurrence thankfully so let’s not use a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

You live right out in the sticks, don't you?

It's very, very different in more populous areas - poorly trained dogs are everywhere and are causing problems on a daily basis for many. Just getting all dogs on leads in public areas would be a huge help.

 

[Gloi]

Just watching the news and a man has been jailed for four years for his dogs mauling a young girl.

 

[Nasicus]

Whew, didn't realize my comment could cause so much discussion!
It was just an idle thought really, remove the ability to bite and remove the ability to kill/maim.

Compulsory Leads are a nice idea, but the amount of times I've been out locally and witnessed large dogs drag their owners and even pull them over when they've lunged for people/other dogs. Nearly ran a woman over when she leapt into the road with her dog when a Mastiff launched itself at her dog and pulled it adult male owner over. Another woman grabbed her small dog and booked it up the hill when two bullies went for them and the large male owners struggled to hold them back. Not to mention the bully that ripped it's lead from it's female owners hands, sprinted across the field and attacked a Maltese recently. Woman claimed she then rehomed the dog and that she didn't have insurance, yet was seen walking it again a week later.

A muzzle law is certainly a sledgehammer approach for sure, but it's very black and white with little grey areas to be exploited by those that would seek to do so.
You could suggest dogs over a certain weight would require muzzling, but then, how do you deal with that then and there? It's not like police/wardens would be carrying portable scales to weigh each unmuzzled dog that looks borderline. And you know the unscrupulous when just start breeding them just that bit smaller to skirt under the rules.

But then that's why this is an interesting subject to discuss, so many different opinions, and who really knows what the solution is, if there ever is one to be found!

 

[Moobli]

You live right out in the sticks, don't you?

It's very, very different in more populous areas - poorly trained dogs are everywhere and are causing problems on a daily basis for many. Just getting all dogs on leads in public areas would be a huge help.

Yes I do (thankfully). And perhaps I would feel differently if I was running into dangerous and uncontrolled dogs frequently.