Another fatal dog attack

[stangs]

Dogs of recognised dangerous breeds should be muzzled, imo. The NI list is a start.

How do we define a "recognised dangerous breed"? Why should we presume another country is better at deciding what breeds are dangerous?

Ireland tried putting boxers on that list. Italy previously required muzzling and leashing for all sheepdog breeds, including the corgi. Bermuda restricts ownership of the Australian cattle dog. Qatar has banned the Afghan hound and the Boston terrier. Ukraine's previous legislation required the muzzling and leashing of Welsh terriers.

Countries come up with all sorts of lists and yet none of them are free from dog attacks. They almost never ban or restrict native dog breeds, so there's an implicit bias there as well. The fact that BSL across the world keeps changing - from adding more breeds, as NZ did to the Presa Canario because of a dog attack in the US, to reducing the list dramatically as Italy and Ukraine did - just goes to show how unreliable these lists are.

 

[conniegirl]

As absolutely horrific as the deaths and serious attacks are, they are still a rare occurrence thankfully

Im not sure that one a day is all that rare which is what is happening at the moment

 

[Smitty]

Compulsory muzzle and/or leash laws seem over the top and unfair on those dogs who are trained and under control. Tackle the irresponsible owners. Don’t penalise all for the ones who are causing the issues. Treat dog attacks as though the owner had used a weapon with heavy fines or strong penalties (dog removed, ban on ownership, prison time for owners of dogs that maim or kill). Bring back a dog licence with a sliding scale of cost depending on size and origins of breed/type. Make owners sit an exam if wanting to keep the larger guarding breeds.
As absolutely horrific as the deaths and serious attacks are, they are still

a rare occurrence thankfully so let’s not use a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Despite what I have said re muzzling, I do agree with you. The problem as I see it is that the full weight of the law is not being brought to bear, and people are getting off with a slap on the wrist for their dog causing carnage.

I have to say that I live on the outskirts of a town. I am old with a small dog. It's not great when a Cane Corso (I think it was that) lunges towards you, even though you are a good 5 yards away, dragging the person on the end of the lead with it.

It would be brilliant if the suggestions on this thread are implemented and worked, but in my mind there are way more in number of dogs and more 'serious' breeds than in previous decades and more owners that couldn't give a damn.

 

[SadKen]

I don't currently own a dog; I muzzle my mother's dog when she stays with me but that is because she puts anything and everything she finds on walks in her mouth and usually swallows them.

I don't see why people who say they would comply if it was law need to be doing it now if they don't own dangerous dogs? They/we are just saying that if a blanket muzzle rule was the only way to reduce attacks by the dogs that are dangerous then we would accept it and comply.

Not muzzling now is tacit acceptance that the only reason to muzzle the dog is compliance to a law, rather than any actual benefit in muzzling their dog. Lots of people who clearly don’t need to muzzle their dog today and don’t actually want to (or they would today) are happy to do it to comply, even though compliance is meaningless in any sense; muzzling a dog that doesn’t need muzzling helps nothing at all. And that’s the vast majority of them.

Edit to say as the thread has moved on - I absolutely agree with posters saying that the punishment for people whose dogs are actually attacking other people or dogs is risible and that for me is where the fix should be. And I have zero issue with the law applying even more significance to attacks by larger dogs, of which I have two. Make the consequences serious. Really serious.

 

[stangs]

You live right out in the sticks, don't you?

It's very, very different in more populous areas - poorly trained dogs are everywhere and are causing problems on a daily basis for many. Just getting all dogs on leads in public areas would be a huge help.

I live in the most populous area in the country, and, compared to how many dogs I see on a daily basis, I very rarely come across or witness an issue (including the local XL bullies and several breeds that are banned in other countries). Fear makes us overestimate risk.

Im not sure that one a day is all that rare which is what is happening at the moment

For comparison's sake, in 2021, the UK averaged over 70 road casualties (deaths and serious injuries) a day [x].

 

[paddy555]

No legislation will stop all attacks. But if licensing financed effective dog wardens you could immediately call the council and have someone that could help. Except from Hound Tor where there’s no signal

I can't see much benefit in a rural area. The dog attacks we have had apart from no phone signal there has been no way of identifying the people involved.
If a dog goes for horses or other dogs the owners usually just disappear. Not sure what the warden would be able to do.

It may be different in a town/city where a warden may be closer at hand.

 

[TPO]

I'm not one that fully subscribes to the "you've got to walk the walk" theory of being allowed an opinion. I'm sure many 5* eventers have been grateful for my input on their training and performance

However, lived experience is a lot different from stats and figures.

It's one thing noticing different dogs and it's another when you're walking your own dog and needing to keep an eye out for their safety (& possibly their life).

I'm on my first "own" dog, but I've been around dogs since I was a fetus. I've had many a boring weekend dragged around dog shows, dog training, and dog comps (in a variety of spheres). Mum ran training classes and took in some dogs for remedial training. Not that thus means that I know much, but I have a pretty decent awareness.

I do think you need to have owned a dog and have experience of training dogs to have an equal voice in the discussion. No amount of figures or science papers are going to make an ounce of difference if a pit bull/XL decides it wants to rip my dog's throat out. What may be published about "family" bulldogs isn't the same as a lived reality.

I have no issue with bull dog types. My main experience of them is in Australia where they've been used as pigging dogs and crossed with all sorts. The ones I've known have all been OK with kids but they've all had owners that trained them and didn't allow situations to occur. That isn't happening here, clearly. So yes I would prefer dogs bred for fighting were muzzled. Correctly trained to wear a property fitted muzzle doesn't cause distress or discomfort and may save two lives.

 

[paddy555]

I would certainly feel a lot happier riding in some of the local places if dogs were muzzled and on leads.
The worst places are holiday lets down a bridleway where the people staying always seem to have out of control dogs running free.

this a million times over

 

[paddy555]

How do we define a "recognised dangerous breed"? Why should we presume another country is better at deciding what breeds are dangerous?

Ireland tried putting boxers on that list. Italy previously required muzzling and leashing for all sheepdog breeds, including the corgi. Bermuda restricts ownership of the Australian cattle dog. Qatar has banned the Afghan hound and the Boston terrier. Ukraine's previous legislation required the muzzling and leashing of Welsh terriers.

Countries come up with all sorts of lists and yet none of them are free from dog attacks. They almost never ban or restrict native dog breeds, so there's an implicit bias there as well. The fact that BSL across the world keeps changing - from adding more breeds, as NZ did to the Presa Canario because of a dog attack in the US, to reducing the list dramatically as Italy and Ukraine did - just goes to show how unreliable these lists are.

why would you need to recognise a dangerous breed if all were leaded and muzzled.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Fear makes us overestimate risk.

Err, no, actually. It is only because of numerous personal incidents with badly behaved and aggressive dogs that I am now much more aware of just how extensive the problem is. Hard life experience, if you will, rather than blissful ignorance.

 

[Clodagh]

How do we define a "recognised dangerous breed"? Why should we presume another country is better at deciding what breeds are dangerous?

Ireland tried putting boxers on that list. Italy previously required muzzling and leashing for all sheepdog breeds, including the corgi. Bermuda restricts ownership of the Australian cattle dog. Qatar has banned the Afghan hound and the Boston terrier. Ukraine's previous legislation required the muzzling and leashing of Welsh terriers.

Countries come up with all sorts of lists and yet none of them are free from dog attacks. They almost never ban or restrict native dog breeds, so there's an implicit bias there as well. The fact that BSL across the world keeps changing - from adding more breeds, as NZ did to the Presa Canario because of a dog attack in the US, to reducing the list dramatically as Italy and Ukraine did - just goes to show how unreliable these lists are.

It seems thoroughly British to say those furriners know nothing.
You have to start somewhere.
There’s drink driving laws yet people still die in alcohol related car crashes. Yet I suspect the legislation still saves lives.

 

[MurphysMinder]

There has just been a report on local news that a man has been jailed for 4 years after his 6 dogs attacked a little girl . It was the second times the dogs had attacked, previously they had injured a man and his dog . No mention of their breed, or what happened to them .

 

[AmyMay]

I believe your dog was attacked a few weeks ago, luckily by a dog you could boot away? I'm not sure a lot of dogs are so easily deterred. They are getting bigger and stronger with the breeds that are now becoming commonplace.

Do you not think that muzzling would make everyone safer?

She was attacked by a dog of a similar size, yes. Even had it been a larger type dog (excluding XL Bullies) I still wouldn’t call for a blanket ‘every dog must be muzzled law’.

I absolutely get the fear and concerns around the XL Bully. I share them.

What I do not share is the general hysteria over all dogs.

 

[paddy555]

Yes I do (thankfully). And perhaps I would feel differently if I was running into dangerous and uncontrolled dogs frequently.

if you rode in a holiday area where dogs, both locals and tourists were continually going under your horse's legs or chasing the horse with the owner's saying "my dog likes horses" you may think differently.
If you walked in a town where owners of off lead dogs wouldn't call their dogs away and especially those who let their small pooch run up to you with the reply "my dog likes big dogs" you may think differently.
Or if you are cycling along a cycle/walking track with loose dogs grabbing at your leg as you cycled past.

Off lead dogs are a PITA.

I do feel sorry for those who have well trained dogs who walk off lead to heel. However, as usual, the majority will be upset/inconvenienced due to the unsociable minority who won't exercise any control.

 

[Goldenstar]

Licences I have no issue with the idea a licence as long as it’s set a price high enough to raise enough money to make a difference .
I think part of the money raised should go to councils part to the police to use for development of system to deal with dog related issues and part should go into funding the collection of data for research .

 

[Goldenstar]

I do not want all dogs to be condemned to a life on a leader I would not support that .

 

[paddy555]

I do not want all dogs to be condemned to a life on a leader I would not support that .

so what are you going to do to make their owners control them in public places
.

 

[tristar]

My dog and I have been very lucky. He had a close shave with an Akita when he was young, has been cornered in a gateway on a country track as we turned a corner by a Greyhound and a Terrier (both muzzled) and a full on attack by a toothless Yorkie, all of which have left him unscathed.

I would be perfectly happy to muzzle him in public, even though he is not aggressive, if it means we can all be safe.

My friend has a dog that has attacked at least 4 times but doesn't muzzle as it might make her dog look nasty. It is

i agree i am willing to muzzle my 6 inch J T R so when i meet a large loose dog that runs straight up to him, the owner saying `oh he is very friendly` which is also muzzled i do not need to nearly throttle my dog trying drag him away for protection because the big dog cant bite my small dog and my small dog will not snap out of fear, equals no dog fight

i will then be free to tell the owner of large dog to get the soddin thing under control in no uncertain terms,

 

[tristar]

I do not want all dogs to be condemned to a life on a leader I would not support that .

i would, loose dogs are a soddin nuisance at best


make an area where they can be loose

or dont have dogs, there are too many unwanted ones

not to mention the dangers to farm livestock

 

[Keith_Beef]

What happens if someone is found not to have a licence? fine them? waste court time on them?

Does everybody caught speeding or running a red light go to court? Or do they get issued with a fixed penalty notice?

And an attachment of earnings order (or whatever it's called) for recalcitrants.

 

[I'm Dun]

I do not want all dogs to be condemned to a life on a leader I would not support that .

Me either. I'd muzzle if I had to, but no way would I condemn my dogs to a life of lead walking.

 

[Clodagh]

Does everybody caught speeding or running a red light go to court? Or do they get issued with a fixed penalty notice?

And an attachment of earnings order (or whatever it's called) for recalcitrants.

This is a ‘all controls are too hard’ thread… please don’t come up with sensible points.

 

[Gloi]

There is a dog field opened recently near me. I would rather they were running free there than amongst the livestock.

 

[Arzada]

Or if you are cycling along a cycle/walking track with loose dogs grabbing at your leg as you cycled past.

Off lead dogs are a PITA.

I do feel sorry for those who have well trained dogs who walk off lead to heel. However, as usual, the majority will be upset/inconvenienced due to the unsociable minority who won't exercise any control.

You are so right paddy555.

Cycling on shared paths I have been attacked by a Doberman running alongside and lunging at me. The incisors are terrifying. I couldn't understand why the walkers ahead didn't call the dog. Eventually someone in an adjoining field else called the dog. The dog obviously had some restraint because it didn't bite me but bit the back wheel as it left.

Run into by a very large 'oodle that probably weighed the same as I do. Owner yelled 'no' so the dog ignored him dog took off and ran into my now stopped bike. No apology from the owner as he and his friends walked by.

I've had a solidly built black Labrador wrapped round my stationary front wheel. When I went to set off I found its identical twin now in front of me. Owner said she can't have them on lead because they pull her over. The next time I saw them the owner rolled a ball down the path (they roll better down tarmac) towards me with the dog in pursuit with the owner calling 'look out Mabel'

Most recently I was taken down by a springer which was out of my sight in bushes/ditch behind its owners who had a dog on lead so I didn't anticipate another dog. I saw it in front of my wheel, no time to use the brakes, the bike hit the dog and stopped dead and I rolled along the tarmac. I was very lucky. I have osteopenia and really don't need this.

There are other everyday lesser incidents, these are just the highlights.

I no longer trust any dog/owner and my default is to stop if I see any movement in my direction. I scrutinise every walker to see if they are carrying a lead just in case there's a chance of a dog ambush ahead.

Worst of all however was watching a retriever in the water attacking a cob defending his pen and cygnets. The owner stood uselessly hinged at the hip and pointing at the ground while I pointlessly told her to call the dog off. The cob was magnificent and eventually drove the dog into deeper water at which point the dog stopped the attack.

 

[SilverLinings]

I think that for a start an awful lot of owners could do with a reminder that they are already legally obliged to keep their dogs under control in public; I am fed up with nearly hitting dogs in my car when they dart out into the road because the entitled owner thinks that because they live in the countryside rover can roam as he wishes, or because they just can't be bothered with a lead when walking to the postbox. And when I'm not driving a car the little 'furbabies' chase me on my horses or decide to try to swing from their tails.

A lot of people seem to have some sort of romantic idea that their dog doesn't need a lead on walks in the local village as (despite never being trained) he will surely walk to heel, and because it's the countryside animals can run free. Aside from the fear that I might hurt a dog because it runs under my car (or kicked by my horse), I feel so sorry for the dogs whose owners apparently care so very little about them that they are happy to risk them being run over on a daily basis.

I honestly think that a large number of owners have absolutely no idea what their current legal responsibilities are regarding dog ownership (needing the dog to be chipped, preventing straying, responsibility for livestock etc), so maybe the Gov't needs to start with a public awareness campaign to 'remind' the self-entitled idiots what their legal obligations are. Just because you don't own an XL Bully doesn't mean you have no responsibility for your dog and their behaviour*.

*not aimed at anyone on this thread, a generic 'your'.

 

[paddy555]

There is a dog field opened recently near me. I would rather they were running free there than amongst the livestock.

I think these are a great idea. Everyone would be aware dogs could be off lead and unmuzzled.

 

[paddy555]

I've had a solidly built black Labrador wrapped round my stationary front wheel.

I did better than that, I had a walker wrapped around mine.

she kept walking eyes on phone , I kept ringing my bell, she kept walking, I called out, she kept walking so I carried on just out of interest to see if she would ever notice me. She finally walked straight into the front of me (I had stopped by then) lifted her eyes from the phone, moved off my bike and lowered her eyes back to the phone and continued

.

 

[Keith_Beef]

FWIW I don't think that a charity should have a policy of never PTS healthy dogs, as surely ones that are un-rehomeable due to aggression would be better off PTS than on their own in a kennel for the rest of their life.

To me it's just a question of terminology.

A "healthy dog" should be one that is healthy both in mind and body.

Which is to say not only in good bodily health but also of good character, not overly aggressive or easily pushed over the line into aggressive behaviour.

 

[Keith_Beef]

The problem is that you can't legislate for stupidity.

Of course you can legislate for it.

It's just really difficult to enforce such legislation.

 

[Spotherisk]

No legislation will stop all attacks. But if licensing financed effective dog wardens you could immediately call the council and have someone that could help. Except from Hound Tor where there’s no signal

No legislation will stop all attacks. But if licensing financed effective dog wardens you could immediately call the council and have someone that could help. Except from Hound Tor where there’s no signal

There’s ee signal!