Another fatal dog attack

[AmyMay]

If you take his argument to its logical conclusion then no amount of trainging will result in a 'safe' dog

Yeah, my Bichon is a regular killing machine

 

[cauda equina]

Yeah, my Bichon is a regular killing machine

Sorry I meant the sort of dogs the guy was talking about ie game bred, not all dogs

 

[ycbm]

If you take his argument to its logical conclusion then no amount of training will result in a 'safe' dog

Same with horses. It can have been a safe old plod for 20 years but it's still capable of taking fright one day and the flight instincts kick in and the rider is on the floor.

I don't know how anyone can argue that dogs (fight instinct not flight instinct in the case of a predator animal) wouldn't be the same.
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[Cortez]

Same with horses. It can have been a safe old plod for 20 years but it's still capable of taking fright one day and the flight instincts kick in and the rider is on the floor.

I don't know how anyone can argue that dogs (fight instinct not flight instinct in the case of a predator animal) wouldn't be the same.
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Because not all dogs are bred to have that “game” (I.e intensely aggressive) instinct, and not all dogs are as heavy as a person, with massive bite power, in fact most pet dogs are bred to be precisely the opposite of that.

 

[ycbm]

Because not all dogs are bred to have that “game” (I.e intensely aggressive) instinct, and not all dogs are as heavy as a person with massive bite power, in fact most pet dogs are bred to be precisely the opposite of that.

I've heard of lots of pet dogs that are surprised by something and give their owners a nip and then are mortified by their mistake.
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[Ratface]

It's not about people trying to circumvent the law; it's the nature of BSL being fundamentally flawed. These are studies that I have linked to before, but to remind everyone:

"The implementation of breed-specific legislation in Spain (1999 and 2002) does not seem to have produced a reduction in dog bite–related fatalities over the last decade." [x]

"There is no evidence from Australia or elsewhere that it does so [that BSL works]. Indeed, the rate of dog attacks has not declined since the introduction of BSL." [x]. This whole paper is worth a read because he discusses the context behind BSL implementation in the UK, and consequently Australia.

Súilleabháin, 2015

• There was a total of 3164 human hospitalisations due to dog bite from 1998 to 2013 [Ireland following implementation of legislation], with a 45% increase in numbers hospitalised; the incidence increased by 21% over the same period.
• Ott et al. (2008) indicated that the breeds currently regulated in Ireland do not possess higher levels of aggression in comparison with other domestic breeds. Breed legislation can mislead the general public into believing that unregulated breeds are less capable of inflicting serious and fatal injuries (Clarke et al., 2013).
• Regulating dogs based on breed to reduce injuries resulting in hospitalisations and fatalities is contrary to scientific evidence (AVMA (American Veterinary Medical Association), 2001, Cornelissen, Hopster, 2010) and compounded by research highlighting the inaccuracy of breed identification, making current regulations unenforceable (Voith et al., 2013).

BSL was also removed in the Netherlands and Lower Saxony because studies found that it had no scientific basis (Ott et al, 2008; Cornelisson & Hopster, 2009).

I did find a study once of a Canadian province (will have a look for it) that found that restricting ownership of the pitbull resulted in a decrease of attacks on adolescences. Some (some, not all) studies of areas in America have found similar things. However, the key thing to note when you do stumble across such a study is that:

• These areas often have stricter legislation surrounding dog ownership in general (licensing, leashing in public areas, etc).
• These so-called pitbulls can be absolutely anything. In America, the label of pitbull is pretty much put on any dog with a bull breed-type muzzle when it arrives at a shelter. Aka the name "pitbull" doesn't denote a breed, but a type containing a greater proportion of dogs with unknown history and breeding, who are more likely to have come from bad homes where their needs weren't met, and therefore are more likely to harm someone than a dog who has come from a good breeder and good home where it received appropriate socialisation.

Also worth keeping in mind that the nature of "banning breeds" differs tremendously. If you ban the importation of a breed who was never in the country to begin with, it looks like you've stopped attacks, but there's no dogs to start those attacks in the first place. It's also difficult to compare "bans" when they vary in severity and context; few go to the extent that the DDA does in a country that's otherwise pretty lax regarding dogs.

In Bermuda, for example, Schedule 2 dogs (e.g., the Cane Corso, wolf dogs) cannot be imported or licensed; Schedule 3 dogs (e.g., the pitbull, English mastiff, Akita) can be imported and kept, but may be prevented from being trained for protection work. However, in Bermuda, all dogs must be on a leash if in a public space (excluding certain areas which have allowed otherwise), so that further makes it difficult to compare the two countries.

I'll finish off with some quotes from a discussion on the DDA in the House of Commons, 2022 [x]

• It is important that we look at the correct risk factors, but the more that the Government focus on breed-specific regulation, which has been shown to be unscientific in outcomes, the less likely we are to look at the real risk factors, such as puppy farming, trauma, abuse and lack of training, which need to be addressed to protect the public.
• A 2021 independent report by Middlesex University, commissioned by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, found that dog bite data is lacking and is inconsistent. However, it was used by the UK Government to underpin a breed-specific approach to public safety, which casts doubt on the evidence that certain breeds of dogs are inherently more dangerous.
• The coalition believes that identifying certain types of dogs as dangerous can create a false sense of security by over-simplifying the situation. Aggression in dogs is a complicated behaviour, involving a range of factors such as breeding and rearing, experiences throughout a dog’s lifetime and, for some dogs, being continually kept on a lead and muzzled in public, which can inhibit natural behaviours and, in some cases, increase aggression.
• In the past 20 years, dog bites have increased by 154%, but only 8% of dangerously out-of-control dog cases involved banned breeds. What is happening with the other 92% of out-of-control dog cases? Why have all the legislative eggs been put in one basket, which accounts for only 8% of the problem?
• According to the latest data from the Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, about 200 leading behaviour experts found that socialisation is the most critical factor: 86% said that the way a dog is brought up by its owner is the most important reason why some are more aggressive towards people than others, and 73% said that the dog’s upbringing by the breeder before they are sold determines behaviour. It is clear that that is where the focus ought to be.

Very interesting and educational. Thank you.

 

[marmalade76]

I've heard of lots of pet dogs that are surprised by something and give their owners a nip and then are mortified by their mistake.
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That doesn't make them unsafe.

 

[Cortez]

I've heard of lots of pet dogs that are surprised by something and give their owners a nip and then are mortified by their mistake.
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Yes, that’s kind of the point though - a nip is not the same as an attack, which is the instinct of dogs with fighting genetics, and it seems that they don’t have to be surprised to want to do it.

 

[twiggy2]

If you take his argument to its logical conclusion then no amount of trainging will result in a 'safe' dog

No it won't, management could make them as safe as possible but if People dont feel their dog is any risk they dont manage the dog or is exposure and enviroment and risk is increased.

 

[ycbm]

That doesn't make them unsafe.

No but that wasn't the point I was making, which is that you can't 100% train dogs out of biting.

 

[Cortez]

No but that wasn't the point I was making, which is that you can't 100% train dogs out of biting.

…..but you can breed them so that it’s less likely to happen, and conversely not breed those that are dangerously prone to it.

 

[conniegirl]

…..but you can breed them so that it’s less likely to happen, and conversely not breed those that are dangerously prone to it.

You can also breed them so that a bite is generally not life threatening.
Most bites from labs/retrievers don’t tend to do the massive damage a bite from something like an XL bully will do.
Ive had bites/nips from goldies before rarely have they ever even drawn blood at all and all have been absolutely mortified afterwards.

 

[Morwenna]

No but that wasn't the point I was making, which is that you can't 100% train dogs out of biting.

You absolutely can’t. The difference is the instinctive reaction of the dog when it bites. My old dog bit me once (he was air snapping and my arm got in the way) and he let go immediately and started wriggling round me. With Bullies and similar the instinct is to keep biting down and to shake and kill their prey. So no matter how well you train your dog, or how well you know them, you have to be aware of what they are capable of and take measure to keep yourself and others safe. And if that means keeping them on a lead / muzzled in public then that’s what needs to be done. As well as not leaving them alone with young children, no matter how good a ‘nanny’ they are or how cute the photo will look on Instagram.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I'm not watching 20 minutes of that, unfortunately because of the algorithm, my social media is full of reels of Suddenly Messianic Professional Dog Trainers Saying Things (and lots of them don't compete at anything/never prove their training, because they can't afford to have a bad day at the office) but I wonder if he has mentioned strength of nerve. Lots of dogs have a genetic propensity to Do Things but not always:
A) The nerve strength to discriminate whether the reaction is proportionate or not
B) Have an owner who can channel/manage those drives.

At risk of repeating myself the issue is mainly awful breeding and that needs root and branch reform of **all** dog breeding. Yes, your dogs too.

 

[skinnydipper]

Deleted.

 

[splashgirl45]

I watched all of it and he is right in lots of what he says.he thinks you have to manage the XL bully as they can turn after years of being placid , he is asking all bully owners to train their dogs so they pass any test , I assume he means train them to accept a muzzle and be on lead and he also said never leave any dogs alone with children…he also suggested that a ceiling was put on how much breeders could ask for their dogs as so many are breeding for money and nothing else .. he doesn’t agree with some of the breed standards in the KC which I agree with if he is talking about the squashed nose breeds .. and those with huge eyes

 

[skinnydipper]

"Mirrorman Tom Bryant tracks down the owner of the Bully that mauled him in the street and uncovers more victims of the same dog"

'I confronted owner of Bully dog that savaged me and my pet in street'

Mirrorman Tom Bryant tracks down the owner of the Bully that mauled him in the street and uncovers more victims of the same dog, and residents living in fear

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[Arzada]

"Mirrorman Tom Bryant tracks down the owner of the Bully that mauled him in the street and uncovers more victims of the same dog"

'I confronted owner of Bully dog that savaged me and my pet in street'

Mirrorman Tom Bryant tracks down the owner of the Bully that mauled him in the street and uncovers more victims of the same dog, and residents living in fear

www.mirror.co.uk

Well that owner and her dog are both nasty pieces of work.

 

[cauda equina]

And the police have been appallingly lax about the whole thing - according to the Mirror article they 'had a name for the alleged owner' but for some reason chose to let her carry on as before

 

[DabDab]

And the police have been appallingly lax about the whole thing - according to the Mirror article they 'had a name for the alleged owner' but for some reason chose to let her carry on as before

Particularly since it sounds like a fairly minimal amount of enquiry in the immediate neighbourhood would have revealed how much distress this one dog was causing

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Wow! Shocking but good on him. A shame that people without those journalist investigative skills and influence won't have the power to do the same.

Reminds me of a local example where a primary school, parents, residents and a housing provider were all onto the police and council about a dangerous dog. I don't know what the outcome was but last I'd read about it the concerns weren't getting taken seriously.

I would happily pay a dog licence if it could fund dog officers/wardens to investigate and intervene in these situations.

 

[SilverLinings]

It is appalling that the police didn't even respond to his report of the attack (which left the man needing hospital treatment) until they were approached by the Mirror newspaper for comment. It is easy to see how fatal dog attacks happen when you read a report like this; the dog has attacked both dogs and humans before causing injuries that require medical treatment, the victims reported it to the police (including the owner's name and address) and because the police do nothing the dog just continues attacking people/dogs when it fancies it (as the owner appears to be taking no steps to stop it).

Under the current laws the police should be intervening as the dog has gone well beyond the point of just leaving people fearful of an attack. If they don't even uphold the law as it stands (and when the details are handed to them on a plate as in this case) what hope do we have that they will do anything at all to police the XLB ban?

I know the police have issues with funding and staffing, but this is clearly a dangerous dog with the physical ability to kill someone - it is also of a breed that will attract lots of press attention if it does kill and it turns out the police didn't act - so I would have thought at least after more than one attack they would have intervened.

 

[Goldenstar]

He said essentially that owners need to be aware of their dogs genetic make up. So whilst owners obviously have the responsibility of training their dogs. Genetics will out.

Lack of training is a huge issue there are people who get a dog and don’t realise they have a new hobby that takes a lot of your spare time to do well.
People get a dog and know nothing about dogs how they think how they learn they perhaps don’t realise that they need to get the right dog for their situation .
Taking Labradors as an example ( just because that’s my breed ) if you get a field trails or keeper type Labrador be prepared for a pretty high energy dog driven to please and learn and retrieve they will learn fast the good and the bad and recover quickly from work.
Thats why people get into trouble with young red type labs those are predominantly coming from field and keeper lines and they are a popular colour .
The more show bred dogs are easier they recover slower from exercise and are not as highly driven to retrieve although clearly do and they will work but they are less quick and athletic they are thicker set and great pets however you will need to good at dog diets as they gain weight very easily .I told the chocolates are very prone to be fat I don’t think you see that colour often in working lines .
I like a working type I like the sharpness and the desire to please it’s such fun I probably have one more puppy like that in me then I will either take in retired gun dogs or a rescue whose owner has passed away .

People need to think more not just look at the puppy and think omg I love it .

 

[SilverLinings]

People need to think more not just look at the puppy and think omg I love it .

Or choose a breed because that's what X celebrity has, or because it makes you look 'hard', or because it's a pretty colour, or because it's cheap etc. Far too many people seem to come at it from the wrong angle, when as you say they should be looking at their lifestyle and home environment and choosing a breed that will be the best fit.

 

[skinnydipper]

I tried to say something earlier, made a mess of it and deleted it. I'll try again and will probably still make a mess of it but I hope you get the gist.

There will be people who have an XL bully and it will be their first dog or people who have only had 'easy' dogs, both these groups will have absolutely no idea what it is like to have and to manage a difficult dog.

Then there are the people who know the potential of an XL bully, and that is why they wanted one.

Lastly there are the people who do know the potential of an XL bully and that's the reason they wouldn't touch one with a barge pole.

 

[SilverLinings]

I tried to say something earlier, made a mess of it and deleted it. I'll try again and will probably still make a mess of it but I hope you get the gist.

There will be people who have an XL bully and it will be their first dog or people who have only had 'easy' dogs, both these groups will have absolutely no idea what it is like to have and to manage a difficult dog.

Then there are the people who know the potential of an XL bully, and that is why they wanted one.

Lastly there are the people who do know the potential of an XL bully and that's the reason they wouldn't touch one with a barge pole.

I think that is a good description of the vast majority of the owners. I think there may also be a small cohort who bought one because they like that 'look' of dog, who have owned a similar type before and do put the effort into training, and are aware of the risks and try to mitigate them. Unfortunately I think this is probably only a very small number of XLB owners though, although I suppose they will be the ones who stand out the least as their dogs are behaving and not put in inappropriate situations.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

People hardly take responsibility for themselves, nevermind another being.

It would be a lie to say that I wasn't a wee but nervous when I was considering getting a Cane Corso for the first time. I had experience with the breed, talked to other owners as well as trainers, and did a lot of research, but I knew such a dog would command more responsibility than my Lab, for example. I feel like I own a mini CC at the moment compared to how big (and ridiculous) some of them are, but still. Maybe it wasn't nerves as much as it was recognition of my responsibilities. So many people seem to skip over that or not posses that though!

I just saw a short clip on Instagram of someone playing "fight" (or stupid) with their CC and it grabbed their sleeve and they laughed as the dog dragged them around. WTAF. Then when that goes wrong and the dog hurts someone, even if just out of play, the dog suffers the consequences as does the breed. The people go on living their lives as idiots, probably

I did various exercises in order to thoroughly install a release command with mine, but I still know that nothing is 100% your odds are far worse if you don't train it though!

I love a good working mastiff type, and enjoy the different level the CC is on vs the Lab, but that's not for everyone. I wouldn't be opposed to a license for guardian breeds, but that's a pipedream.

 

[SilverLinings]

People hardly take responsibility for themselves, nevermind another being.


I just saw a short clip on Instagram of someone playing "fight" (or stupid) with their CC and it grabbed their sleeve and they laughed as the dog dragged them around. WTAF. Then when that goes wrong and the dog hurts someone, even if just out of play, the dog suffers the consequences as does the breed. The people go on living their lives as idiots, probably

It's like the owners who let their cute, small puppy (of any breed) climb all over them and jump about, but then shout at them when they have muddy paws and the owner is in work clothes. Or when they are older and jump up at people to greet them. So many owners just set their dogs up to fail and then chastise/punish them for it.

When you think about it it is shocking how easy it is to acquire another sentient being, and have complete control over it's life. And if you get it wrong then you can cause an immense amount of suffering. It's a shame there isn't some sort of exam to sit before being allowed to own an animal (or have children), with strict punishments if you have one and don't meet all it's needs.*


*I realise that in reality this is completely unrealistic and unworkable.

 

[DirectorFury]

Hmm. I wonder if one of our forum computer wizards like @DirectorFury could help out here. I would be grateful if they could.

Thank you, ycbm.

You rang?

Paywall-free link: https://archive.ph/WNlJ4

(Sorry if already posted, I haven’t read the rest of the thread)

 

[skinnydipper]

You rang?

Paywall-free link: https://archive.ph/WNlJ4

(Sorry if already posted, I haven’t read the rest of the thread)

I knew you would be able to do it .

Thank you, DF.