Another fatal dog attack

[ycbm]

I've been musing over a "big cat" argument used above.

Big cats are genetically and behaviourally very similar to pet cats. It's legal to keep them in this country. It's legal to allow a pet cat free range. It's not legal to allow your pet panther to stroll around the streets.

How are these big dangerous dogs, of any breed, any different from the cat? Some of the genetic variations are inherently more dangerous than others and subject to stricter controls.

Can some explain why dogs should be any different?
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[ycbm]

blanket laws that do nothing to reduce attacks except punish the whole population for committing no crime.

There is the essence of the problem with this discussion.

It's not a punishment to be on a lead and wearing a muzzle. There is more punishment in a horse wearing a muzzle and being confined to a paddock than a muzzled dog on a lead.
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[marmalade76]

There is the essence of the problem with this discussion.

It's not a punishment to be on a lead and wearing a muzzle. There is more punishment in a horse wearing a muzzle and being confined to a paddock than a muzzled dog on a lead.
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Indeed. We're not allowed to turn our horses loose in a public park so why should it be different for dogs? If people want their dogs to 'run free', where's the problem with it being on their own property or in a rented dog park?

 

[twiggy2]

Can see more ‘all on leads, all muzzled’ posts appearing.

I hate to harp on but again, these two ideas are pointless, if your goal is to prevent dog attacks.

They won’t apply in the home where many attacks occur.

The people who actually need to muzzle and put on lead will not do so. Those who are eager to obey laws and muzzle and put on lead ‘if it saves one life’ will be muzzling and putting on leads dogs who were never going to attack or kill anyone anyway, making zero difference to anything.

Many will disobey because it’s a stupid idea and their dogs aren’t a danger, plus they are walking in the middle of nowhere with nobody around.

Current legislation isn’t enforced at all. This will not be either. The police don’t have time to properly enforce today’s legislation never mind new blanket laws that affect everyone.

Again - what is needed is proper enforcement of existing legislation. Stronger sentencing would be welcome. Not blanket laws that do nothing to reduce attacks except punish the whole population for committing no crime.

Many attacks are may happen in the home but they are also happening on the street.
It would make it easier to enforce the law, dogs could be immediately seized if no lead and or muzzle being worn, rather than waiting till so.eone has been attacked then try and find the dog and owner.
Dogs should be happy wearing a lead so I don't see the punishment in that and they would just need to be trained to wear a muzzle too, it's not a punishment.
What current legislation are you referring too? If its BSL than its so long wonder and costly for me the idea of muzzle and lead ot to reduce time, cost, confusion and to keep people safe.
I agree legislation needs to be enforced and that doesn't appear to have really happened to date.

 

[Clodagh]

I went to Bude the other day and there were maybe 30 dogs on the beach. All happy running and playing and interacting. Why is everyone so opposed to that?
I know I said if I had to muzzle in public then so be it but I wouldn’t take my dogs out in public any more.

 

[Cortez]

I went to Bude the other day and there were maybe 30 dogs on the beach. All happy running and playing and interacting. Why is everyone so opposed to that?
I know I said if I had to muzzle in public then so be it but I wouldn’t take my dogs out in public any more.

I went to a beach recently and there were lots of loose dogs running around, there were several extremely nasty dog fights and after people intervened and got the dogs separated (there were six or seven involved), two of them proceeded to attack dogs that were on leads. Owners either not present or disinclined to control their dogs. It is becoming increasingly unpleasant to bring my leashed dogs anywhere public because of loose dogs running around out of any form of control, with aggressive owners who refuse to keep their dogs away from mine.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

The biggest problem I foresee in having laws about muzzling and on lead is how the average policeman/warden is going to enforce it. Just walk up to the person with the dog and tell to leash and muzzle it? No problem if it is a little dog, but an XL bully type? The sort of people that would be doing this I personally would be steering well clear of. Would need specialist people to step in and apprehend the owners and dogs.

 

[ycbm]

I went to Bude the other day and there were maybe 30 dogs on the beach. All happy running and playing and interacting. Why is everyone so opposed to that?

Nobody is opposed to that.

They are opposed to the possibility of that turning into a fight and the constant worry that it might because of the increasing frequency with which it does.

 

[Smitty]

I went to Bude the other day and there were maybe 30 dogs on the beach. All happy running and playing and interacting. Why is everyone so opposed to that?
I know I said if I had to muzzle in public then so be it but I wouldn’t take my dogs out in public any more.

No problem with that as long as they keep to themselves and don't bother other people, children etc. I have not seen that to be the case and non dog owners are keen for dogs to be banned on dog friendly beaches as they are too obtrusive and affect their enjoyment/safety. I can completely understand their point of view but unless dog owners are less entitled than at present, the number of places dogs are welcome will decline.

 

[twiggy2]

I went to Bude the other day and there were maybe 30 dogs on the beach. All happy running and playing and interacting. Why is everyone so opposed to that?
I know I said if I had to muzzle in public then so be it but I wouldn’t take my dogs out in public any more.

I am not sure anyone is opposed to that, the problem is that I doubt there were 30 dogs on the beach that all had good recall, I wouldn't let my dogs of with that number of dogs about and I almost certain that we would be approached by more than one.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Someone who was scared of dogs wouldn't find that a very relaxing visit to the beach!

 

[SadKen]

I see this time and time again in support of every dog muzzled and on lead everywhere arguments: ‘I support this if it means stopping dog attacks/deaths’. It won’t. The argument holds no water. Thoae who will obey muzzle and lead laws are likely to own dogs who are perfectly safe. Those whose dogs will attack other dogs and people which actually need a lead and a muzzle are not the type of people who will obey such laws. They can’t hold them on a lead half the time anyway.

The current legislation I was referring to is the ‘dangerously out of control’ legislation - applies to all dogs regardless of breed. As an aside BSL doesn’t work, see the replacement of pit bulls with something even worse in the form of XL bully for details.

Blanket ‘every dog muzzled on a lead’ is pointless. Alternatively if you target the XL bully population you’ll have a lot of people working to prove their dog isn’t one for the purposes of legislation enforcement. That means a lot of police effort on trying to prove that someone’s big bully type (which never bit anyone but had no lead or muzzle) is an XL bully and therefore subject to legislation. If the police seize a dog which is subsequently determined not to be a dog covered under BSL, we have to pay for all the admin and kennelling etc, and we are going to have the ‘was your dog unfairly seized by the police? You could be entitled to compensation!’ Lawyers on it. This is not a good use of police time or funds.

They aren’t even spending to enforce existing legislation on the dangerous dogs. That’s where any funding should be going.

 

[ycbm]

I see this time and time again in support of every dog muzzled and on lead everywhere arguments: ‘I support this if it means stopping dog attacks/deaths’. It won’t. The argument holds no water. Thoae who will obey muzzle and lead laws are likely to own dogs who are perfectly safe. Those whose dogs will attack other dogs and people which actually need a lead and a muzzle are not the type of people who will obey such laws. They can’t hold them on a lead half the time anyway.

But at least if you see an owner approaching with an off lead and/or unmuzzled dog you know you should turn tail and walk the other way immediately and would be completely within your rights to report it to the police or dog warden.
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[ycbm]

HUGE change in attitude today on the same walk we always do on a Sunday, a wide track which begins at a big area of back to back 2 up 2 downs. Owners calling their dogs away from me the moment I stopped moving. Owners spontaneously apologising for their dog approaching close enough to make me stop walking. Far fewer dogs offlead and far quicker reeling in of extendables. It was very, very marked. The publicity about XL bullies (none of the dogs today were) is clearly having an impact right now. Long may it continue.
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[Tiddlypom]

I see this time and time again in support of every dog muzzled and on lead everywhere arguments: ‘I support this if it means stopping dog attacks/deaths’. It won’t. The argument holds no water.

You seem to be determined to rubbish all attempts at making members of the public safe if it involves you putting your own medium/large breed dog on a lead .


Of course such legislation will start working if all off lead dogs are routinely confiscated and are either only returned after paying a hefty fine, or PTS if not claimed. The message will soon get across. There will always be a small hard core who will ignore rules as not applying to them, but they would stick out like a sore thumb, and be much more easily dealt with.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

To have any noticeable effect on the number of attacks the description of the breed in the ban legislation is going to have to be very careful, because otherwise within a year or two people will be breeding in-essence 'XL Bullys', just making sure that the individuals are an inch shorter etc than the breed dimensions on the ban.

There are XL Bully's being offloaded at prices much reduced from those of earlier in the year, but there are still a lot of 'standard', 'american' and 'pocket' bully's for sale online at huge prices, and they are pretty much the same thing as an XL bully except in size. And presumably any current XLBs that 'measure out' post ban will be prized by certain types of breeder.

The link below shows a pocket bully male for sale for £5,000, it is a solid lump of muscle (although that one looks pretty deformed) so surely owners of pocket/standard/american bully's will just fill the gap by breeding bigger? Or cross breeds, as there are quite a few crosses for sale at high prices already (£1,000+), including XLB x Cane Corso, XLB x Malamute and XLB x Boxer.

Dogs for sale in Dunstable, Bedfordshire - Gumtree

Give a pet a good home in Dunstable, Bedfordshire on Gumtree. Find you best friend within the thousand breeds available on Gumtree: Labradors, Cockers, Golden Retrievers, Boxers and many more.

www.gumtree.com

As said, the ad has disappeared, but omg, what is it supposed to be? Poor things.

I really hope a law preventing dogs being off lead doesn’t occur. I had a lovely walk today, boys wandering round the woods, greeting other dogs, moving on as soon as they’re told, lots of sniffing and discovering interesting little holes. I have never seen an xl bully up there and haven’t been to the field up the street for months-there are xl bullies walked up there and I just don’t want to encounter them.

 

[SadKen]

But at least if you see an owner approaching with an off lead and/or unmuzzled dog you know you should turn tail and walk the other way immediately and would be completely within your rights to report it to the police or dog warden.
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You can’t tell from looking at a dog/it’s owner whether you should avoid it or not unless it is disobeying a law that is meaningless?

You’re within your rights to report any dogs which are out of control in public now. What do you think the police will do?

TP, I’ve heard this a number of times, that I’m ‘down’ on these proposals. No. I am simply stating why they won’t work. And I’ve repeatedly stated what I think will work, including in the post I made above: better enforcement of existing laws and stronger sentences. Perhaps you missed it. Did you also read the reasons I put why confiscating off lead dogs won’t work? Care to rebut those? You also put ‘if all off lead dogs…’- again, your ‘if’ renders your argument invalid. It won’t happen. It can’t happen. Why do you want blanket laws? Why don’t you focus on better enforcement of todays law?

 

[TheresaW]

I have one dog that is scared of people, mainly men, and only a certain build. One that is dog reactive. The dog reactive is always on lead due to breed anyway. The other is better off lead. Both are being muzzle trained, to keep them safe.

More aimed at @ycbm due to what she has posted previously. The off lead dog has very good recall. Would you automatically assume he’s vicious due to the muzzle?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

HUGE change in attitude today on the same walk we always do on a Sunday, a wide track which begins at a big area of back to back 2 up 2 downs. Owners calling their dogs away from me the moment I stopped moving. Owners spontaneously apologising for their dog approaching close enough to make me stop walking. Far fewer dogs offlead and far quicker reeling in of extendables. It was very, very marked. The publicity about XL bullies (none of the dogs today were) is clearly having an impact right now. Long may it continue.
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They've obviously been reading this thread!






Happy to hear that though!

 

[Goldenstar]

XL bully type dogs are about 1% of the dog population yet account for around 50% of serious incidents involving humans .
Half of all bullies are related to one sire and that’s the main cause of the issue and the dogs involved in these incidents are disproportionately related to one sire dog .
Stupidly they don’t record serious dog on dog attacks except I think they if it’s a guide dog or police dog .
We need to stop the breeding these XL bullies get and them muzzled and neutered.
In some of these filmed incidents you see people who are frankly just crap at handling dogs trying to control these extremely bulky strong dogs which is a job for the fit and experienced .

Some people get these dogs because they are involved in criminality , but many are well meaning and have got in well over there heads some are bone heads who want a hard looking dog it’s does not really matter why they are an aberration and we need to deal with it .

 

[ycbm]

You can’t tell from looking at a dog/it’s owner whether you should avoid it or not unless it is disobeying a law that is meaningless?

No. Last time I checked I did not have the ability to read people's minds and I learned a long time ago after a narrow escape with two doberman the owner only just held, never to lock eyes with a big dog, so I don't look at them.

An indicator like somebody blatantly ignoring the law would be helpful.

If you could ask all the reasonable dog owners with dogs in complete control to wear a beacon on their heads for me, I'd find that very helpful too.
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[ycbm]

They've obviously been reading this thread!






Happy to hear that though!

I think you're US atm? It's all over the news here, and it shows!

There was a great article in the Times today explaining exactly what's gone wrong in the UK, with breeders over here deliberately breeding back in the aggression which was deliberately bred out of the US dogs.
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[skinnydipper]

Or cross breeds, as there are quite a few crosses for sale at high prices already (£1,000+), including XLB x Cane Corso, XLB x Malamute and XLB x Boxer.

I knew I shouldn't have looked.

XL bully x malinois. A dog that likes to bite x a dog with an instinct to fight. Excellent, just what we need

Not only should the dogs be sterilised, the breeder should be too.

 

[skinnydipper]

There was a great article in the Times today explaining exactly what's gone wrong in the UK, with breeders over here deliberately breeding back in the aggression which was deliberately bred out of the US dogs.
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Please could you post the link to the Times article. Thank you.

 

[ycbm]

Please could you post the link to the Times article. Thank you.

I read the paper version on Sundays

The online one will be behind a Paywall but I can look for it if you like?
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[ycbm]

Paywalled. Main headline is misleading, sub headline is more representative.

I created the XL bully to be docile. They’re misunderstood

The Conservative Party conference drew its usual crowds of demonstrators: environmental campaigners, remainers and trans rights activists. But there was also a

www.thetimes.co.uk

 

[skinnydipper]

Paywalled. Main headline is misleading, sub headline is more representative.

Hmm. I wonder if one of our forum computer wizards like @DirectorFury could help out here. I would be grateful if they could.

Thank you, ycbm.

 

[paddy555]

You can’t tell from looking at a dog/it’s owner whether you should avoid it or not

I disagree. I think that you can look at the combination and have a pretty good idea just the same as a horse person having a pretty good idea as to how the horse and rider are going to behave. Obviously you have to have dog experience and that was all fine. I was quite happy with any size of dog. . Then it all changed when bull breeds came along. To me they are unreadable.

My experience with a staffy was the game changer for me. It was a lovely sweet dog, husband, wife and 2 small kids. It was loose, playing with the kids, smiling at them and in the space of 10 seconds this sweet creature was a monster attached to my horse's leg. Horse was being held and just standing still, no provocation. I learnt from that how difficult it is to prise them off something. Couldn't strangle it as the horse was thrashing too dangerously. It didn't listen to the owner. No one could get it to release. A lead and muzzle and that wouldn't have happened.

Put that up a few notches and you have larger bull breeds, wonderful with the baby and then they just lose it for no apparent reason.

as a minimum all bull breeds of whatever size need to be muzzled in public.
I am totally lost as to why someone would take a large dog out without a lead. It would never occur to me not to lead. If fact I double lead to a chain and also to a harness back to my waist belt.

 

[paddy555]

Hmm. I wonder if one of our forum computer wizards like @DirectorFury could help out here. I would be grateful if they could.

Thank you, ycbm.

I bred the first XL Bully... people say I created a monster – but that’s not true

THE man who bred the first ever XL American Bully has rejected claims he created a so called monster. After a string of recent attacks, Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has revealed American XL Bully Dog…

www.thesun.co.uk

I think this is almost the same as the Times.

hasten to add I don't read the Sun, google supplied this.

 

[SadKen]

No. Last time I checked I did not have the ability to read people's minds and I learned a long time ago after a narrow escape with two doberman the owner only just held, never to lock eyes with a big dog, so I don't look at them.

An indicator like somebody blatantly ignoring the law would be helpful.

If you could ask all the reasonable dog owners with dogs in complete control to wear a beacon on their heads for me, I'd find that very helpful too.
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Looking at some of your posts, it seems you do have an understanding of behaviour in dog and or owner that would concern you, and avoid it.

XLs will need to be muzzled soon. It would be interesting to see what numbers are reported for not being muzzled and how many false reports are made, ie for dogs which aren’t XLs. And then tot up the police time spent vs follow up action actually taken vs the measurable reduction (or not) in dog attacks.

That will give some idea of whether it works. (It won’t, imo).

Again, this hasn’t addressed enforcement.