ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Inconsiderate!?!?
It's theft for a start and outrageous for a second. Were people really knowingly doing that?
Another Man V Horse entrant…
- Thread starter Ample Prosecco
- Start date
Inconsiderate!?!?
It's theft for a start and outrageous for a second. Were people really knowingly doing that?
palo1
Well-Known Member
Yes, I saw at least one rider doing that. However, the crew's veterinary briefing had stressed the need to put horses first, that some folks were riding without crew and that in the event of a horse coming in needing support, it was to be given. No issues with that at all. The rider 'taking' the stuff mentioned was assisted by a crew who had refills of everything though it meant that they had to re-organise and re-fill for their horse. I don't think it was theft, but downright inconsiderate (possibly heat of the moment thinking) - without a crew that horse should have been ridden MUCH slower so that that level of intervention wasn't needed. I don't think anyone begrudged giving what they had plenty of in all honesty but it felt frustrating and inconsiderate that this was a horse being ridden fast and without structured support. They did say a breezy 'thanks' after using all the stuff and I think that they had their own supplies for the finish (easy to organise pre-race). That is why I think a crew and personal supplies should be mandatory. Not great for biosecurity among other things too!!
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Just to add that the horse coming in 2nd place is 25 years old.Her rider and crew are exceptional and the mare clearly enjoyed her day out!! As did her team.
I'm sorry Palo, I can't like that. I can appreciate the care and skill that took. But as an older person I think I can be pretty certain that mare will be full of aches and pains since finishing an event which is a big ask for a horse in the prime of life. Adrenaline will carry you through on the day, it's the days after that it takes its toll. Obviously the mare is exceptional, but my personal belief is that all horses of that advanced age should be living a quieter life than that.
.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
So they were given it, they didn't just take it. That does change things a lot. It does sound as if it should be mandatory to have crew and supplies.
.
palo1
Well-Known Member
I do tend to agree @ycbm to be honest; it's certainly not what I would choose to be doing with an active 25 year old horse!! But that horse was very well supported, and finished sound and very strongly so I guess it was their call. But I was very happy to get home and find my own horses snoozing and relaxing, having seen some things that had made me question endurance horse sport.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Yes, it was requested and given in the mid way crewing which can be extremely hectic. It's not always possible to know when 'your' horse will be coming in so generally people are in a state of readiness. That is why it was frustrating for a rider to arrive and need stuff that perhaps they should have supplied and organised themselves. Later, slower riders needed less help so not an issue as there was plenty of water, spare buckets etc. I just found that particular sort of behaviour irresponsible and inconsiderate as I said.
outinthefens88
Well-Known Member
Interesting report from Patterdale.... I know of several people that have ridden Man V Horse on several occasions and know well some that were crewing there this year. I also ride endurance and have ridden several competitive 32km's in the last month or so....
To address your points a bit:
My first go at endurance, and it was HOT. Really hot! The course was gruelling too, it was really hard on the horses. Which I suppose is the point of it! But I didn’t enjoy it.
(It is billed as one of THE hardest endurance rides in this country for good reason!)
The following report is just my experiences and opinion. The event has been running a long time and attracts the same people again and again, so the fact that I didn’t enjoy it personally doesn’t mean it’s not a good event. Also I know nothing about endurance so things that seemed strange to me are possible NFE (normal for endurance!). So I’m not looking to slate the event at all.
The start was odd. We had to register with the horses and trot them up for the vet, then just hang around the start field with tacked up horses for 2 hours. I untacked mine and hand grazed him. Luckily he is quite level headed and just grazed, but my last horse would have burnt most of his adrenaline in the first hour alone just with the general atmosphere.
But possibly this is NFE!?
(Not unusual to have a hold - even novice events you can be up to 1/2 hr from vetting to start gate)
We started by following a pace car through the town, then out into open country. My horse was thrilled to bits about all of this, and I fought him loads in the first 2-3 miles to try and slow him down to pace it a bit more, then decided that was tiring him more so let him blast along.
Lots of it was hard stony forestry tracks which everyone just pounded along at top speed, lots at a canter. The whole of what I saw gave me the opinion that you can’t really succeed at it if you care much about your horses legs. But I don’t know how much longevity endurance horses have, so maybe I’m being judgemental here. Dunno.
(Bit judgemental there I am afraid - most endurance horses are looked after better than the majority of leisure horses)
My horse is very sure footed and good at going over pretty much any terrain. He has lots of experience at this, and jogs down tricky bits easily in good balance. Try and make him walk however, and it gets dangerous because he fights and doesn’t look where he’s going.
On 2 of these single track downhills, I got stuck behind a woman who gave me a mouthful of abuse when I asked if ok to pass (on a suitable area) when they were walking at snails pace. I found that endurance people do not like to be passed, especially by non endurance people! My cheery ‘don’t worry, you’ll pass me again on the flat it’s just that he gets a bit tricky if I try to walk down steep bits’ was met with another snarl.
Most people were very nice though and I had some good chats. But I would say the split was probably 80-20 nice to awful and it’s the awful and rude people that stick in your mind sadly.
(In the EGB handbook it is emphasized that requests should be made to pass and if denied - STAY behind until practical to pass safely. There has been recent heavy enforcing of this rule with some riders in a recent ride facing disciplinary/possible ride bans for forcing overtakes causing an incident).
It continued to be swelteringly hot, and with water stations every 3 miles I stopped at every one, got off and gave a full wash and drink to the horse, and got off up a lot of the hills to lead him. I didn’t see one other person do this. Maybe not NFE? But it was boiling and the horses were struggling. You could hear them breathing before their hooves as they came pounding up from behind.
Stopping every 3 miles is not normal or practical in a timed event and drink is offered (usually they wont drink though), but a full wash off is certainly not normal, a 'slosh' with half a bucket or several large bottles of water (often whilst still moving) is usual.
Some of the horses were very fit and well ridden. I was told that the winners were FEI endurance riders.
Some of the horses were not at all fit, and some of the riders were downright FAT. There was one in particular who even the runners were commenting on, she was enormous and sat on a little spindly Arab who was clearly struggling as it heaved her up the hills. How she was allowed to compete I do not know. It was abuse.
There were quite a few overweight riders and there is no excuse for it on a 23 mile tough race. Offended be damned, it needs to be said.
The vets at Man V on the vet checks are known to be some of the strictest on the circuit - if there was any doubt about horse welfare, the combination would have been forced to retire.
My horse recovered well at both vet checks but by 2/3 of the way he was properly tired, and I walked most of it from there except when he offered trot. It was constant long, steep uphills, then long, steep downhills. Just up and down, up and down. I spent a long time at the last two water stations and the amount of riders who just came trotting or cantering through chasing a fast finish was ridiculous. I offered my sponge and assistance to one girl, whose horse had been struggling for some miles, but she just shouted no thanks and trotted the exhausted horse on through.
Again I think you need a little more experience of endurance riding before making a judgement - the way the horses get used to riding, if you stop, they think they have finished...
I finished in the top 20 but I think this is because he went very fast in the first 8 miles until he settled, because I looked after him so that he was only a few minutes in the vet checks, and because he’s naturally got a good fast walk. I certainly wasn’t chasing the time.
He was exhausted yesterday and today, just keeps yawning and stretching his neck like he’s aching. I feel awful about doing it tbh.
I really nursed him home and after a few miles walking he cantered happily through the finish but it was hard on them. Maybe because it was so hot?
This is normal (ish). Bear in mind that if this is the longest ride you have done and depending on your pretraining, conditioning, eletrolyte and mineral feeding regime, he could be completely 'drained'. Usual would be a clear full day off per 10K ridden with light work on the next two. This is where recovery mash, electrolyte water and salt can all be utilized to 'refuel'. We recently did every weekend in May on rides with extensive preconditioning since last December - shade under 200K on rides in a month - he's fine and fitter than ever...
Some lovely people helped me at the vet check though. I had no crew but with that in mind I’d walked and led the last mile so I could easily cool him on my own, but it was lovely to have some friendly and really efficient help. I’ve never had help at a competition so it was really nice.
The organisers were very friendly though as were most competitors. The stabling was dreadful and completely unsafe but that’s a thread of its own and not the organisers fault.
I think maybe in cooler weather and softer ground I might have had a different experience. I can see the appeal but I won’t be returning or seeking a career in endurance!
I feel like this has been really negative and I’m sorry for that, but I think just the hammered, knackered horses carrying fat riders put a real dampener on it for me.
To address your points a bit:
My first go at endurance, and it was HOT. Really hot! The course was gruelling too, it was really hard on the horses. Which I suppose is the point of it! But I didn’t enjoy it.
(It is billed as one of THE hardest endurance rides in this country for good reason!)
The following report is just my experiences and opinion. The event has been running a long time and attracts the same people again and again, so the fact that I didn’t enjoy it personally doesn’t mean it’s not a good event. Also I know nothing about endurance so things that seemed strange to me are possible NFE (normal for endurance!). So I’m not looking to slate the event at all.
The start was odd. We had to register with the horses and trot them up for the vet, then just hang around the start field with tacked up horses for 2 hours. I untacked mine and hand grazed him. Luckily he is quite level headed and just grazed, but my last horse would have burnt most of his adrenaline in the first hour alone just with the general atmosphere.
But possibly this is NFE!?
(Not unusual to have a hold - even novice events you can be up to 1/2 hr from vetting to start gate)
We started by following a pace car through the town, then out into open country. My horse was thrilled to bits about all of this, and I fought him loads in the first 2-3 miles to try and slow him down to pace it a bit more, then decided that was tiring him more so let him blast along.
Lots of it was hard stony forestry tracks which everyone just pounded along at top speed, lots at a canter. The whole of what I saw gave me the opinion that you can’t really succeed at it if you care much about your horses legs. But I don’t know how much longevity endurance horses have, so maybe I’m being judgemental here. Dunno.
(Bit judgemental there I am afraid - most endurance horses are looked after better than the majority of leisure horses)
My horse is very sure footed and good at going over pretty much any terrain. He has lots of experience at this, and jogs down tricky bits easily in good balance. Try and make him walk however, and it gets dangerous because he fights and doesn’t look where he’s going.
On 2 of these single track downhills, I got stuck behind a woman who gave me a mouthful of abuse when I asked if ok to pass (on a suitable area) when they were walking at snails pace. I found that endurance people do not like to be passed, especially by non endurance people! My cheery ‘don’t worry, you’ll pass me again on the flat it’s just that he gets a bit tricky if I try to walk down steep bits’ was met with another snarl.
Most people were very nice though and I had some good chats. But I would say the split was probably 80-20 nice to awful and it’s the awful and rude people that stick in your mind sadly.
(In the EGB handbook it is emphasized that requests should be made to pass and if denied - STAY behind until practical to pass safely. There has been recent heavy enforcing of this rule with some riders in a recent ride facing disciplinary/possible ride bans for forcing overtakes causing an incident).
It continued to be swelteringly hot, and with water stations every 3 miles I stopped at every one, got off and gave a full wash and drink to the horse, and got off up a lot of the hills to lead him. I didn’t see one other person do this. Maybe not NFE? But it was boiling and the horses were struggling. You could hear them breathing before their hooves as they came pounding up from behind.
Stopping every 3 miles is not normal or practical in a timed event and drink is offered (usually they wont drink though), but a full wash off is certainly not normal, a 'slosh' with half a bucket or several large bottles of water (often whilst still moving) is usual.
Some of the horses were very fit and well ridden. I was told that the winners were FEI endurance riders.
Some of the horses were not at all fit, and some of the riders were downright FAT. There was one in particular who even the runners were commenting on, she was enormous and sat on a little spindly Arab who was clearly struggling as it heaved her up the hills. How she was allowed to compete I do not know. It was abuse.
There were quite a few overweight riders and there is no excuse for it on a 23 mile tough race. Offended be damned, it needs to be said.
The vets at Man V on the vet checks are known to be some of the strictest on the circuit - if there was any doubt about horse welfare, the combination would have been forced to retire.
My horse recovered well at both vet checks but by 2/3 of the way he was properly tired, and I walked most of it from there except when he offered trot. It was constant long, steep uphills, then long, steep downhills. Just up and down, up and down. I spent a long time at the last two water stations and the amount of riders who just came trotting or cantering through chasing a fast finish was ridiculous. I offered my sponge and assistance to one girl, whose horse had been struggling for some miles, but she just shouted no thanks and trotted the exhausted horse on through.
Again I think you need a little more experience of endurance riding before making a judgement - the way the horses get used to riding, if you stop, they think they have finished...
I finished in the top 20 but I think this is because he went very fast in the first 8 miles until he settled, because I looked after him so that he was only a few minutes in the vet checks, and because he’s naturally got a good fast walk. I certainly wasn’t chasing the time.
He was exhausted yesterday and today, just keeps yawning and stretching his neck like he’s aching. I feel awful about doing it tbh.
I really nursed him home and after a few miles walking he cantered happily through the finish but it was hard on them. Maybe because it was so hot?
This is normal (ish). Bear in mind that if this is the longest ride you have done and depending on your pretraining, conditioning, eletrolyte and mineral feeding regime, he could be completely 'drained'. Usual would be a clear full day off per 10K ridden with light work on the next two. This is where recovery mash, electrolyte water and salt can all be utilized to 'refuel'. We recently did every weekend in May on rides with extensive preconditioning since last December - shade under 200K on rides in a month - he's fine and fitter than ever...
Some lovely people helped me at the vet check though. I had no crew but with that in mind I’d walked and led the last mile so I could easily cool him on my own, but it was lovely to have some friendly and really efficient help. I’ve never had help at a competition so it was really nice.
The organisers were very friendly though as were most competitors. The stabling was dreadful and completely unsafe but that’s a thread of its own and not the organisers fault.
I think maybe in cooler weather and softer ground I might have had a different experience. I can see the appeal but I won’t be returning or seeking a career in endurance!
I feel like this has been really negative and I’m sorry for that, but I think just the hammered, knackered horses carrying fat riders put a real dampener on it for me.
palo1
Well-Known Member
I agree with lots of this
However I cannot agree about the overweight riders. The one rider should not have started the race and I am massively disappointed in the vets that this combination wasn't challenged at the initial vetting. Unless that rider was made of air, they would have been over any reasonable weight limit for that horse. Just horrible and no good at all for equestrian social licence.
RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
I agree with lots of this
I really think that all of our horse sports need to have clear % based weight limits that are enforced. And clearly endurance and eventing would need to have a more stringent % than dressage and showjumping, because of the intensity and duration of effort. Unfortunately the current position, which allows for so much discretion, doesn't give stewards and officials the clarity of authority to make rulings. I think they should be standing up and making those decisions, but is made so much harder by the lack of rules to support them. [and on that point too, vets should be eliminating horses that are overweight and not allowing riders to fatten up horses in order to bend those weight percentages...]
I also have to say (and this is me being a broken record on this) that this feels quite typical of an event taking place without the oversight of a regulatory body - horses unprepared, people out of their depth etc. because they haven't come up through structured endurance sport - and being able to enter a 'race' when in endurance you wouldn't be able to race until you've proved competency at lower levels.
There's a small part of me that thinks I could probably quite enjoy endurance riding proper - maybe if I get fed up of jumping cross country fences I could be tempted into it. I enjoy the process of getting horses fit and spending lots of time riding. But I'd probably have to learn a huge amount about stuff I have no idea about!
expanding_horizon
Well-Known Member
There's lots I like about endurance but the hammering on hard baked ground and or hard and stony ground doesnt appeal. But is often necessary if want to make the grade times in summer rides. No problem when the ground and going is good, but a lot of the time if have a dry summer ground is rock hard.
Glitter's fun
Well-Known Member
Man V Horse Scotland was postponed due to rare birds nesting near the route. They are hoping to hold it in August instead. There are two courses, 26K and 16K. Horses have to be shod or booted in front.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
It looks like a lot of fun, actually. An event OH and I could do together. Not this year, but maybe next year. Though Tain is a b1tch to get to.
palo1
Well-Known Member
I quite agree about a lot of this but I have participated in affiliated endurance and there are things wrong with that too tbh. I think the MvH info sent to competitors is pretty good; it clearly explains about a lot of the crewing/prep etc needed including heart rates, cooling, recovery rates and the distance at MvH really isn't that long; with 2 legs of 11 miles and an unrestricted hold/rest in the middle. I have seen some horrible but 'legal' practices at endurance rides and walked away from that due to the links with Middle Eastern money and influence. Long distance riding can be wonderful but the chasing of qualifications/times does mean that some courses are relentless forestry or flat going in order to make the speeds needed. I am not sure at all about 'extreme' horse sports...
For those who wanted to give endurance riding a go, in my limited experience the Red Dragon ride held in early October is one of the best and most genuine endurance competitions; much, much better going than MvH but properly testing and equally well organised. Even the pleasure ride feels like a 'proper' thing.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Bit weird if your horse is fine without shoes or boots.
nagblagger
Well-Known Member
I am concerned about the overweight rider who maybe riding that horse every day. Someone should have been honest before it even got to the race, or even bought the animal.
RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
I quite agree about a lot of this but I have participated in affiliated endurance and there are things wrong with that too tbh. I think the MvH info sent to competitors is pretty good; it clearly explains about a lot of the crewing/prep etc needed including heart rates, cooling, recovery rates and the distance at MvH really isn't that long; with 2 legs of 11 miles and an unrestricted hold/rest in the middle. I have seen some horrible but 'legal' practices at endurance rides and walked away from that due to the links with Middle Eastern money and influence. Long distance riding can be wonderful but the chasing of qualifications/times does mean that some courses are relentless forestry or flat going in order to make the speeds needed. I am not sure at all about 'extreme' horse sports...
For those who wanted to give endurance riding a go, in my limited experience the Red Dragon ride held in early October is one of the best and most genuine endurance competitions; much, much better going than MvH but properly testing and equally well organised. Even the pleasure ride feels like a 'proper' thing.
Fair enough - I'm so not educated about endurance, but have read about some of the more horrific stuff.
On a more positive note, I listened to an amazing podcast about someone who did the Cairngorm 100 ride which just sounded incredible - intense and a bit bonkers but incredible nonetheless.
Maddie Moo
Well-Known Member
I’m genuinely not sure how anyone could see a photo or that video of the grey Arab and think it’s in anyway acceptable.
Annagain
Well-Known Member
That poor pony (I'm pretty sure he's a pony too) that video of her lolloping about on his back all unbalanced is heartbreaking.
SEL
Well-Known Member
I used to exercise endurance horses for their owner and I was taken aback at the ground she would happily trot and canter on.
But her horses her vet bills was my conclusion and they stayed sounder than mine so I couldn't really criticise!
clinkerbuilt
Well-Known Member
the one that is 17? ETA - sorry, confirmed downthread. Valiant horsethe grey Arab? Yeah nope
Running out of water is completely inexcusable
DressageCob
Well-Known Member
I also was alarmed by the grey horse and larger rider. I'm not as large (and I ride a cob not an Arab) but there is no way I would do that type of ride. I would expect myself to be in peak fitness, same as my horse, in order to feel ok to do it.
The photos are bad enough, but the video of the canter up the hill where the rider is just bouncing in the saddle and not even achieving light seat is awful. She is so unbalanced, never mind the weight issue. It would be like giving a piggy back to someone enthusiastically doing the Macarena. I know we need to "be kind" and all of that, but why on earth didn't anyone step in about that obvious welfare concern?
The photos are bad enough, but the video of the canter up the hill where the rider is just bouncing in the saddle and not even achieving light seat is awful. She is so unbalanced, never mind the weight issue. It would be like giving a piggy back to someone enthusiastically doing the Macarena. I know we need to "be kind" and all of that, but why on earth didn't anyone step in about that obvious welfare concern?
palo1
Well-Known Member
Yes, well...I guess because culturally speaking, being overweight has been so normalised and then hijacked by pseudo body positivity influencers (and I don't mean the original body positivity movement which was far more focussed on disability than obesity) that it has become very hard to call it out even when it involves another sentient being. I have been overweight and teeter on the edge of normal weight, working very hard to maintain a healthy weight both for me and my horses so I do understand some of the issues involved. However that rider was beyond what I think anyone could or would find acceptable. There were other riders that were overweight too and I don't want to make this personal but those images are the absolutely logical conclusion to equestrianism that doesn't question the fitness to ride of it's participants. Sorry, I know that is hard and quite unpalatable to many but horses are not machines and our weight is something that can be managed either through diet or up-horsing.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
The sad thing is that I looked at her Facebook page and there is no doubt in my mind that she regularly rides this horse. Looks like they only have Arabs at her yard.
It’s so difficult not to send her the thread or say something, even if just to spare the horse from more years of back breaking work.
Glitter's fun
Well-Known Member
I think you can be sure many people have told her. Fear of speaking out is not one of Facebooks problems.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Do you think she has been directly challenged over riding her Arab? I wonder about that and also wonder why regular vets, physio, etc haven't tried to indicate that there might be an issue.
Peglo
Well-Known Member
Facebook has so many trolls ripping apart everything but I’m yet to come across welfare concerns of obese/very heavy people riding. Maybe they delete negative comments straight away but all that I read are “you’re so inspirational”. I am gobsmacked by these types of folk that don’t see the issues. Hopefully people have pointed it out though and they take notice.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Someone like this will very likely be in complete denial about how she is currently much too heavy for that horse, and will probably delete all negative comments as being from 'haters' rather than sit up and take note 
.
There needs to be an authoritative third party to step in and to stop her from riding him until or unless she slims down A LOT.
.There needs to be an authoritative third party to step in and to stop her from riding him until or unless she slims down A LOT.
palo1
Well-Known Member
I think the fact that we seem to have a 'system' that is powerless to address this kind of basic form of abuse is really worrying. I know that showing has introduced weight related regs but honestly you would think, wouldn't you that vets (at home and particularly at competitions) would have the authority and the sense of appropriacy to not only make judgements or instigate qualitative procedures but also the willingness to put their heads above the parapet on this? A vet is an arbiter of animal welfare legally after all. It bothers me hugely as I rely on those professionals that I ask for help, to give me their best advice and opinions. What is going on if they can't or won't express those professional views?
The whole social media thing is just grim and silly imo but there are, or should be mechanisms in equestrianism that manage welfare issues like this.
The whole social media thing is just grim and silly imo but there are, or should be mechanisms in equestrianism that manage welfare issues like this.
ameeyal
Well-Known Member
I loved reading your report patterdale, it’s a ride I have always fancied doing, I’ve had Arabs for 35 years , they have very strong bones and great feet, they are also like mountain goats,so most terraine is a doddle for them. I haven’t seen the photo of the girl on the gray, but people think Arabs are very dainty and carnt carry much weight, Arabs are great weight carriers, and can carry more weight by weight than a chunky cob.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
nah this isn't an instance of considering them daintier than they are.