Another Man V Horse entrant…

[The Xmas Furry]

I loved reading your report patterdale, it’s a ride I have always fancied doing, I’ve had Arabs for 35 years , they have very strong bones and great feet, they are also like mountain goats,so most terraine is a doddle for them. I haven’t seen the photo of the girl on the gray, but people think Arabs are very dainty and carnt carry much weight, Arabs are great weight carriers, and can carry more weight by weight than a chunky cob.

Go and stalk the photos, there is a large amount of rider that is spilling over the front, back and sides of the saddle.
I'm very aware of what arabs are capable of but this person really shouldnt be doing an event like that. Heck, if I'd been there I'd have caused a furore with vet gates etc about it.

 

[palo1]

Go and stalk the photos, there is a large amount of rider that is spilling over the front, back and sides of the saddle.
I'm very aware of what arabs are capable of but this person really shouldnt be doing an event like that. Heck, if I'd been there I'd have caused a furore with vet gates etc about it.

How do you actually have an impact though if there is no 'formal' protocol for raising a concern or even a weight limit? I mean I suspect that many, many people have said something about overweight riders to organiser, stewards etc and several vets have seen this combination through the vettings. If there isn't a 'rule' how does that work?

 

[The Xmas Furry]

How do you actually have an impact though if there is no 'formal' protocol for raising a concern or even a weight limit? I mean I suspect that many, many people have said something about overweight riders to organiser, stewards etc and several vets have seen this combination through the vettings. If there isn't a 'rule' how does that work?

If there are no rules then a qualified vet could surely ask the rider to stand down if they (the vet) were of the opinion that to attempt the ride would be detrimental to the horses health?

 

[palo1]

If there are no rules then a qualified vet could surely ask the rider to stand down if they (the vet) were of the opinion that to attempt the ride would be detrimental to the horses health?

Yes, you would hope that was possible wouldn't you? But clearly either none of the vets were of that opinion or they didn't feel able to address it. I can't imagine NONE of the vets thought that the rider was overweight, by some margin, for that horse so that just suggests that the issue IS in fact too difficult to deal with which is quite horrifying.

 

[bonny]

If there are no rules then a qualified vet could surely ask the rider to stand down if they (the vet) were of the opinion that to attempt the ride would be detrimental to the horses health?

I doubt any vet would want to get involved in weight issues unless there were rules in place to back them up

 

[RachelFerd]

If there are no rules then a qualified vet could surely ask the rider to stand down if they (the vet) were of the opinion that to attempt the ride would be detrimental to the horses health?

But it is much easier for a vet to stick their head above the parapet if there's a rule that says that a max weight limit of 20% of horse's weight is in place, including tack and equipment - and really something I think should be in place across all of the disciplines. Then there's no argument with these situations.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

I doubt any vet would want to get involved in weight issues unless there were rules in place to back them up

I know, lobbying to get a rule in place would be a start, as per RFs comment below.

But it is much easier for a vet to stick their head above the parapet if there's a rule that says that a max weight limit of 20% of horse's weight is in place, including tack and equipment - and really something I think should be in place across all of the disciplines. Then there's no argument with these situations.

Agreed.
Overweight riders are just as bad as obese equines.

 

[palo1]

But it is much easier for a vet to stick their head above the parapet if there's a rule that says that a max weight limit of 20% of horse's weight is in place, including tack and equipment - and really something I think should be in place across all of the disciplines. Then there's no argument with these situations.

Absolutely. Whilst 20% seems too generous for a horse working hard it would at least be a start, would initiate honest conversations about rider weights and would raise awareness of the need for riders to be fit to participate. I mean there are so many other sports where there are weight limits, weight classes etc it makes no sense at all for equetrianism not to do that.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I think weight limits are the only fair way of dealing with it. I remember seeing a very overweight rider on a connie pony doing BE100. He was really flagging and she was whipping him and shouting get on as he approached a table. (I was walking the course). I gave a silent cheer as he downed tools and refused. Poor pony. But she should not have been permitted to take him round in the first place. (And also pulled up for misuse of the whip.) But the rules need to be black and white with clarity that it is the rider's responsibility to be within the weight limits and riders who look like thay might be overweight will be weighed at the venue and potentially disqualified.

 

[palo1]

I think weight limits are the only fair way of dealing with it. I remember seeing a very overweight rider on a connie pony doing BE100. He was really flagging and she was whipping him and shouting get on as he approached a table. (I was walking the course). I gave a silent cheer as he downed tools and refused. Poor pony. But she should not have been permitted to take him round in the first place. (And also pulled up for misuse of the whip.) But the rules need to be black and white with clarity that it is the rider's responsibility to be within the weight limits and riders who look like thay might be overweight will be weighed at the venue and potentially disqualified.

Wouldn't it just be fairer if every rider weighed in and a basic weight measurement of the horse was also taken (ie a pre comp vetting) ? That way, everyone is treated the same. I know it would add time to pre-comp work but a weigh tape and scales set up discreetly - possibly separately wouldn't be horribly onerous and for some comps could be included somehow with tack checks/registration etc. Then every horse and every rider would have the same principles and tools applied to them even and if a weight tape is not entirely accurate it would be better than nothing I think. I would happily weigh in when I went to register at an event (with or without tack) and it takes less than a minute to put a tape on a horse.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

You could do that, but I think most overweight riders know they are overweight and would self select out rather than face being DQed. It just needs the governing bodies to agree welfare based policy, then the processes around that policy can be sorted out. But a commitment to banning riders who are too heavy for their horses taking part in organised events would be a start.

 

[RachelFerd]

You could do that, but I think most overweight riders know they are overweight and would self select out rather than face being DQed. It just needs the governing bodies to agree welfare based policy, then the processes around that policy can be sorted out. But a commitment to banning riders who are too heavy for their horses taking part in organised events would be a start.

There is a local rider to me with a large insta following who has been criticised on here before about weight - and to me was a size for her horses that didn't seem appropriate. She had previously been pulled up by 1 dressage judge, but most judges were scoring her well. She's been posting recently on Insta about 100lb+ weightloss, and honestly, it looks so much of a better picture. Good to see someone making a proactive change - and I wonder what it was that pushed her that way - possibly even the BD rulebook amendments? Who knows, but has to be better for welfare anyway.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

There is a local rider to me with a large insta following who has been criticised on here before about weight - and to me was a size for her horses that didn't seem appropriate. She had previously been pulled up by 1 dressage judge, but most judges were scoring her well. She's been posting recently on Insta about 100lb+ weightloss, and honestly, it looks so much of a better picture. Good to see someone making a proactive change - and I wonder what it was that pushed her that way - possibly even the BD rulebook amendments? Who knows, but has to be better for welfare anyway.

I know who it is you mean and it is a much better picture now for her larger horse anyway. I was another who was interested in what the catalyst was.

I think have scales and have a weigh bridge at every event. It wouldn’t take a hideous amount longer than a tack/hat/whip check or a pre-vetting. And if too heavy people self select out then that is as much progress as being DQ’ed

 

[Tiddlypom]

I've just been watching one of the hat cam video clips put up by riders on the FB page. I'm rather struck by just how close the horse was to many of the runners when it was overtaking them on some of the narrower tracks, but it still carried on at a fair lick past them. I know that the runners were signed up to sharing the route with horses, but I wouldn't dream of passing pedestrians so closely like that.

The horse was constantly chucking its head up in the air, too.

Meh.

 

[palo1]

I've just been watching one of the hat cam video clips put up by riders on the FB page. I'm rather struck by just how close the horse was to many of the runners when it was overtaking them on some of the narrower tracks, but it still carried on at a fair lick past them. I know that the runners were signed up to sharing the route with horses, but I wouldn't dream of passing pedestrians so closely like that.

The horse was constantly chucking its head up in the air, too.

Meh.

At times the runners and riders are in very close contact. I have had a runner put their hand on my horse's shoulder to balance over a rut!! It does seem to work fine though and as far as I know there have not been any difficult horse/runner interactions. It is a very unique element of the competition and the chat between runners and riders is brilliant. Ordinarily, I agree - I would never be that close to a pedestrian nor moving at anything faster than a walk. Everyone knows what they are in for though and it always seems to work out ok.

 

[spacefaer]

It would be easier to implement a body condition rule in a sport that has a governing body. So far as I am aware, the MvH is an isolated and unaffiliated occurrence?

As an aside, I've always thought that those riders at the upper end of the appropriate 20% for their horse could be tempted to overfeed the horse, rather than reduce their own weight.....

On the opposite scale, I knew of a young teenager with a pony she adored. Her parents said the pony would be sold as she was getting too big for him. They meant tall, but she stopped eating and lost several stone. It's a tricky tightrope.

 

[palo1]

It would be easier to implement a body condition rule in a sport that has a governing body. So far as I am aware, the MvH is an isolated and unaffiliated occurrence?

As an aside, I've always thought that those riders at the upper end of the appropriate 20% for their horse could be tempted to overfeed the horse, rather than reduce their own weight.....

On the opposite scale, I knew of a young teenager with a pony she adored. Her parents said the pony would be sold as she was getting too big for him. They meant tall, but she stopped eating and lost several stone. It's a tricky tightrope.

Yes it is a tricky tightrope but I think if all the governing bodies employed a % weight limit the unaffiliated would follow suit AND it wouldn't be perceived as 'personal'. I think it would become a part of our equestrian culture to check ours and our horses weight more systematically and that would be a good thing. Of course there are those who would continue to totally ignore updated welfare advice/rules but generally I think it would be better.

 

[Flame_]

I loved reading your report patterdale, it’s a ride I have always fancied doing, I’ve had Arabs for 35 years , they have very strong bones and great feet, they are also like mountain goats,so most terraine is a doddle for them. I haven’t seen the photo of the girl on the gray, but people think Arabs are very dainty and carnt carry much weight, Arabs are great weight carriers, and can carry more weight by weight than a chunky cob.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Why are people so keen on testing horses' limits?! Right, big fat rider... So get an arab and test it's mettle as to whether or not it collapses or get a big strong horse that would actually be comfortable, the same way an arab would be with a standard size rider? I agree that, like shetlands, arabs are strong for their size, but they're not elephants and we've some riders well on their way to needing one! Find the photos, the lady on the flea-bitten grey is obese and riding a regular size arabian. She's massive on it, look at the photos, they're not right.

 

[Glitter's fun]

It would be easier to implement a body condition rule in a sport that has a governing body. So far as I am aware, the MvH is an isolated and unaffiliated occurrence?

I have to disagree. Getting a big organisation to decide wording & then the committee to actually vote for it would be a nightmare. In comparison an independently run event that receives a lot of letters/emails could very easily bring in a rule for next year's event. If you feel strongly about it just get writing.

Contact Green Events

www.green-events.co.uk

 

[expanding_horizon]

Are we talking about grey horse with purple matchy matchy? I’ve only found one photo.

 

[Tiddlypom]

No.

It's there to be found on the FB page.

 

[paddy555]

Are we talking about grey horse with purple matchy matchy? I’ve only found one photo.

I can't find it either and I have been through every pic. on the FB page looking for number 17. There is a flea bitten grey but it is number 13 so I have no idea if the rider is overweight or not.

 

[Tiddlypom]

17 is the age of the horse, not the number.

 

[palo1]

There is a local rider to me with a large insta following who has been criticised on here before about weight - and to me was a size for her horses that didn't seem appropriate. She had previously been pulled up by 1 dressage judge, but most judges were scoring her well. She's been posting recently on Insta about 100lb+ weightloss, and honestly, it looks so much of a better picture. Good to see someone making a proactive change - and I wonder what it was that pushed her that way - possibly even the BD rulebook amendments? Who knows, but has to be better for welfare anyway.

Just to come back to this - I really wondered HOW that combo could have been scored well by dressage judges as you could see the horse's movement was impacted by the weight it was carrying; it seemed so obvious. That made me really wonder about dressage marking too.

 

[paddy555]

17 is the age of the horse, not the number.

I wondered how it has lived that long!!!!

someone has very kindly pointed me in the right direction. Totally gobsmacked.

 

[RachelFerd]

Just to come back to this - I really wondered HOW that combo could have been scored well by dressage judges as you could see the horse's movement was impacted by the weight it was carrying; it seemed so obvious. That made me really wonder about dressage marking too.

Well, exactly. But they were consistently scoring well, bar 1 judge who was eliminating them. Not many people willing to pop up above that parapet.

 

[palo1]

This is quite long but an interesting report from a Pro Endurance rider who came in the top 3.

Man V Horse 2023 – The race
bethendurance Uncategorized June 22, 2023 5 Minutes
I get teary every time I try to write this, think about it, watch videos back or see photos of the day. Happy tears, tears of pure appreciation for the horse that Tissy is, grateful for the life experiences she has given me, tears of gratitude for the people in my life and what they do for me, just pure emotion leaks out my face!

What an event! It really does live up to the hype. There were hundreds of spectators cheering everyone on and the atmosphere and community were exceptional. Firstly let me say thank you to the organisers, sponsors, volunteers and everyone who makes this event happen.

So let’s start at the beginning shall we, Kate and I were taking this event as seriously as we would a championship 160km. We planned to ride as a team and then after the first vet gate re-assess to see if Kate would push on to win or if Tissy was still up for it and we’d carry on together. I planned not to dictate anything to Tissy, just let her set her pace and go with the flow, she was in full race mode and just wanted to fly so I let her do what she does best.

The pace car was a little slower than we are used to traveling so there were moments where I thought we might end up in the boot but we’d placed ourselves up front to avoid as much chance of being kicked or caught up in any drama amidst the big group of riders. Tissy did spook a little at the chip timers across the floor, but otherwise we had a great start, nice and controlled, out of the fray and easy on up the first hill.

Tissy and Nessie went so well together, sharing the leads and Kate and I kept eachother in the right headspace to make good decisions, letting people charge on past uphills, going faster on the downhills, slowing down when we were exposed to the sun and speeding up when we were under the cover of shade, all to preserve our horses energy and keep a nice even effort throughout the course. This is where our past endurance experience really helped us out, as we knew that it’s not all about going as fast as you can but about how you cover the terrain. We did the first 18km in 15.7kph, taking it easy down the hill into the vet gate.

The heat played a huge part in our day and I have never seen Tissy’s respiratory rate take so long to come down. I think we lay around 4/5th place coming into the vet gate. We presented in around 6 minutes and 18 seconds. Usually, I present to vet with a heart rate 5 beats higher than required as it normally drops but alas it was 63 so we were turned away and waited until it was 58bpm before we presented again and the same happened to Kate, and most the other riders I think. Whilst I tacked up Tissy was given sugar beet water, electrolytes and feed and we were back out together with Kate and Nessie now in the lead with the next rider 5 minutes behind us.

We were confident that we could maintain the same strategy and speed as our first half, and as it was already much hotter we decided that we wouldn’t push on for speed but keep consistent, we did the second half at 15.6kph (A consistency of speed I’m very proud of). We met so many lovely runners, I am in awe of their human capacity and grit to complete this course. It’s the second toughest course I’ve ever ridden in terms of technicality and elevation, and the runners still had a smile and a cheer as we came past.

Nessie & Tissy were cruising, Kate and I were loving it and it was an amazing feeling to have Tissy so effortlessly cover the course. About 4 miles out from the finish Nessie lost a shoe, for the second time, the first she’d had put back on in the vet gate. She wanted to stop to vet wrap the foot to get back to the finish and as she did she told me to go ahead, we knew we had another rider just 5 minutes behind us, but that’s just not good sportsmanship, if I had left Nessie would never have stood still for Kate to wrap his foot, she’d have struggled to hold on, maybe even struggled to get back on again and would leave a horse with a sore foot. We had covered most of this course together and I wasn’t leaving now. So we stopped, Kate wrapped Nessie’s hoof, got back on and we headed off onto the next hill together.

Kate then spent the next 4 miles saying sorry but I would not have had it any other way. The rider in 3rd caught us up about 1.5 miles from the finish but was making no attempt to pass so we carried on at the same pace. All throughout the race we communicated which side we were overtaking eachother on, which line we were taking for a corner, what speed was right for both of us, so as we approached the bend to the finish I yelled to Kate that I’d be on her inside, Nessie is the quicker horse in a racing finish and as Tissy has never done one I wasn’t convinced she’d care enough to go for it and not let another horse pass her, she’s normally indifferent to other horses, preferring to do her own thing, so as Kate stretched her arm out to hold my hand over the line I yelled ‘just go’ so that hopefully we wouldn’t let our first and second places slip away (I love the photos of this moment, Kate’s arm outstretched towards me even though the finish line is meters in front of her with another horse hot on our heels, that’s friendship and camaraderie right there). Nessie and Kate didn’t disappoint and actually neither did Tissy, racing ahead to take first and second horses with 3rd mere strides behind us.

There is no denying that the horses were hot, it took 10 minutes for Tissy’s heart rate to get under 50bpm and another 10mins before she was happily munching grass and mooching around, at which point we decided to go to vet. Always the most nerve-wracking moment when the race is behind you and the adrenalines been high. I was confident as Tissy’s heart rate was 42bpm before we went in and I knew she wasn’t lame but you just never know. Thankfully all top 3 horses passed the vetting and we kept our placings, which were incidentally also the placings we were in leaving the vet gate, it just goes to show the importance of crew and vet gate strategy for races like these. It’s where I think we lost it to the runners too as two had crossed the finish line before us, the winner being 10 minutes ahead putting us in 3rd and 4th overall. We just weren’t fast enough through the vet check to catch them up!

It was so lovely to meet Dan, the winning runner and overall winner of the day. His humility, genuine interest in our horses and all round friendliness was so heartwarming. What an incredible athlete! You should have seen the size of his quads! We had so many well-wishers come to see Tissy and take pictures that I felt swept up and barely able to take it all in. Riding it with Kate and Nessie made it all the more fun and I wouldn’t change a single element of our day. It is a memory I will treasure forever, Tissy even got an award for being the oldest horse to complete the course!

 

[planete]

youtube

You can see Beth 's video of the race by clicking on the link.

 

[palo1]

youtube

You can see Beth 's video of the race by clicking on the link.

Beth's horse was incredibly well looked after all day. It was lovely to see and learn from. It was good to know too that this team found the heat challenging in terms of riding and managing their horses - that was exactly the experience a lot of people had and thankfully all horses home safe if not all entirely sound at the end of the race.

 

[EstherYoung]

Re weight - it's always a contentious issue. But one place to start might be to lobby the FEI to remove the requirement for international endurance horses to carry weight. FEI endurance is the only remaining FEI discipline with a minimum weight requirement, and for a wirey fit 14.2 Arab to carry 75kg it could easily take them over the 20% of their bodyweight (and in reality they need to carry over 75kg to allow for natural losses - one of the GBR riders at the recent WEC was eliminated for not taking that into account and coming in very slightly underweight at a vetgate). There's a reason why you don't see smaller horses doing International endurance any more, their owners don't want to pack them up with lead....

Also, man v horse isn't an endurance ride, it's a race, so a very different animal to 'normal' endurance, particularly at shorter distances where affiliated endurance has strict qualification criteria (both for rider and horse) and speed controls. The man v horse organisers have incorporated a lot of additional welfare provisions as a result of feedback though.