ANOTHER Parelli video

Cobbysmum

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I couldn't watch much of that video, it made me feel really uncomfortable. I have a cob who used to be quite bolshy, if I'd met him with that sort of behaviour he'd probably have made mincemeat of me. Patience, compassion and a little bit of time has meant that we now understand one another perfectly, to the extent where all he now wants to do is please me, he even notices if I glare at him now lol!
 

paisley

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As we have the same arguments over and over again on Parelli- its only supposed to be a bit of fun, so try not to get outraged!

Parelli( or Marmite for horsy people) - a synopsis if you can’t be bothered to read yet another thread

Parelli Lovers (PL)
Parelli is great, it just the best, you all must do it now!

Parelli Haters (PH)
It looks awful and cruel, why are they waving sticks around and yanking the horse with a rope?

PL
Tchah! Silly people, it’s because the horse was on a ‘right brain prey drive on a bus ‘mode!
PH
Still don’t like it, the horse looks very unhappy. And how much is all the stuff?!

PL
Look at the lovely video where my horse does stuff as if by magic. Plus he looks really happy doing it

PH
Looks damn silly to me. I like normal horse stuff, me, going round in circles, the occasional hup over a log, sensible underwear, mustn’t grumble, ooh isn’t the weather frightful.

PL
You’re so closed minded. And stupid!

PH
You’re stupid!
PL
No you are!
PH
No you!

Ad nauseam for 20 or so pages
 

bmw

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I do very basic parelli with my horse at the moment, mainly games and i find it has really helped me control him and he respects me more for example, this time last year to put him out in the field i would have to get someone else to lead him with me, he would prance about and try to drag me, he reared up at the gate once too. Now through kindness and patience i can walk him to the field on my own with a long line and he will just plod along beside me, he will wait patiently at the gate and will wait for his halter to be taken off. I know this video is of one of the Parelli 'masters' but not everyone practices Parelli in this way. Especially not me, i take what i want from it and regularly have lessons to help makesure i'm doing everything right and to progress on to more advanced games and i can assure you if anyone told me to do that to my horse i would wrap the rope round there neck! :)
 

pastie2

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Without getting into the whole parelli debate what on earth was going on in that leading from a trot video??

Was it just me or was there something really wrong with the big chesnuts trot??

Not just you, I was thinking the same thing! It looked like it had been sored.
 

lhotse

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To put into context what you see in that video, if you walked past your local travellers site and saw someone hitting a horse around the head with a driving whip, and yanking it's leadrope, and smacking it with the spare end, then tying it up to a post for 20 hours, then smacking it some more to get it into a trailer......

I want to put this question to Andy, what would your reaction be to the above?

Because I can see no difference except that the Parelli's have marketed their form of cruelty, so it has become 'acceptable'
 

Cadfael&Coffee

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As we have the same arguments over and over again on Parelli- its only supposed to be a bit of fun, so try not to get outraged!

Parelli( or Marmite for horsy people) - a synopsis if you can’t be bothered to read yet another thread

Parelli Lovers (PL)
Parelli is great, it just the best, you all must do it now!

Parelli Haters (PH)
It looks awful and cruel, why are they waving sticks around and yanking the horse with a rope?

PL
Tchah! Silly people, it’s because the horse was on a ‘right brain prey drive on a bus ‘mode!
PH
Still don’t like it, the horse looks very unhappy. And how much is all the stuff?!

PL
Look at the lovely video where my horse does stuff as if by magic. Plus he looks really happy doing it

PH
Looks damn silly to me. I like normal horse stuff, me, going round in circles, the occasional hup over a log, sensible underwear, mustn’t grumble, ooh isn’t the weather frightful.

PL
You’re so closed minded. And stupid!

PH
You’re stupid!
PL
No you are!
PH
No you!

Ad nauseam for 20 or so pages

Lol!!!! This is brilliant!!!!!
 

LauraWheeler

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Again - pleas read my post. I said that the only 100% way I have witnessed was basically what Parelli does. And that is true - I have a friend (a BHSI) who can load absolutely anything (or has been able to up til now - hence the 100% claim.....!!!). She's not a paid up Parelli follower, but the methods she uses are basically the same as his. She loads from a halter and long line with no food, no lunge lines, no whips, no shouting, no endless meaningless praise for no effort, no nothing, just pressure and release and good timing.

Please do not belittle my experience or roll your eyes at something you have misunderstood in my post.

I'm sure that there are a lot of people out there getting it wrong when they play around with Parelli, or Natural Horsemanship or whatever, just as there are people getting dressage wrong, or racing wrong, or hacking wrong or anything else to do with horses wrong for that matter. I'm glad that your pony now lives with an understanding owner and has done so well - he is a credit to you.

Thankyou. :)
Sorry if you took my post the wrong way but so many people do actualy claim Parelli is the only thing that works. I just wanted to show there is another way. Oh and
no endless meaningless praise for no effort
He was being a very good boy for not trying to KILL anyone. I wish I had fottage of how he was before, of egsactly what PARELLI had done to this poor little man :mad: He needs lots of encoragment and yes food. I don't shout at him if you get angry you have lost it and god help you if you hit him. As I said before he missed someones head by mm once when we where loading him :( I do admit parelli works for some horses it's clear to see it does but I just will not condone hitting a horse over the head with anyting be it a rope or a heavy clip. Out of intrest does the BHSI hit the horse over the head? If not she is more using Montys technec. Which is similer to Parelli but without the hitting over the head!
 

AndySpooner

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To put into context what you see in that video, if you walked past your local travellers site and saw someone hitting a horse around the head with a driving whip, and yanking it's leadrope, and smacking it with the spare end, then tying it up to a post for 20 hours, then smacking it some more to get it into a trailer......

I want to put this question to Andy, what would your reaction be to the above?

Because I can see no difference except that the Parelli's have marketed their form of cruelty, so it has become 'acceptable'

I don't really want to prolong the agony of these Parelli threads, and it is pretty obvious that the opinions expressed here are so opposing that some compromise will never be reached, nor should it be in truth, where these opinions are honestly held.

In answer to the question which has been put to me directly I feel I should give some response.

The majority of people who buy horses don't get involved in the backing and bringing on of young horses. Having been involved with horses for so long, I have backed and brought on lots. Initially I was as conventional, or as traditional if you like as everyone else. I got interested in what is called Natural Horsemanship, for want of a better term 20 years ago and I've seen lots of different trainers in both schools of thought. I have to say that I prefer to bring on horses in the natural way, and I now have become more extreme in that I don't shoe, nor do I use a bit anymore. These are of course personal choices for me and my horses. I believe that the way that I keep my horses has resulted in very happy fit friendly viceless bidable horses that anyone would be happy to own.

As to how I would react to seeing cruelty, I am not an armchair warrier and have taken on people who have been at the extremity of cruelty to lots of animals not just horses. I have taken part in the break up of dog fighting gangs in the West Midlands, I've staked out woods and ambushed badger baters. I have taken horses and dogs from lots of places where mal treatment has happened and ended up rolling round on the floor with those responsible in the mud and blood.

I've been a member of this forum since 2005 and seen a lot of arguments over lots of topics, sometimes I get a bit frustrated over some of the threads, but as far as my own animals are concerned their welbeing and welfare is paramount.
 
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welshcobabe

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Been brought up as a Yorkshire farmers daughter that has worked with shire horses, my grandad was a small man but without anger or raising his voice could command the respect of all our 18 hand giants. I never once in all his years saw him raise a hand or fist to any our horses including the very bolshy youngsters. I was brought up to belive that you needed trust and a working partnership my grandad was always firm but fair the same traits I like to belive in when working with my own over large fresian cross.

This is the first time I have seen this method or watched the vidio and I am lost for words I have heard of these people but it is beyond belief.

My best memory of my grandad was when my dad got a tractor stuck in our field and my grandad brought two of his boys down to pull it out they follwed him down to the bog stood solid while they were hooked onto it then even now in his 70's jumped up asked them to move on and they pulled it out. I can see him now going up the road sat astride Charlie, smoking his pipe muttering about the new fangled machinery. A trust and a working partnership that this linda person will never hope to achieve I hope folk at the end of the day can see this crew for what they are a set of idiots.
 

NOISYGIRL

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Those people are mental, she totally winds up that horse as soon as she takes it off the girl I couldn't watch anymore.

Its like a cult, I can't get it into my head that people believe this tosh AND LET THE STUPID WOMAN NEAR THEIR HORSES !
 

NOISYGIRL

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Been brought up as a Yorkshire farmers daughter that has worked with shire horses, my grandad was a small man but without anger or raising his voice could command the respect of all our 18 hand giants. I never once in all his years saw him raise a hand or fist to any our horses including the very bolshy youngsters. I was brought up to belive that you needed trust and a working partnership my grandad was always firm but fair the same traits I like to belive in when working with my own over large fresian cross.

This is the first time I have seen this method or watched the vidio and I am lost for words I have heard of these people but it is beyond belief.

My best memory of my grandad was when my dad got a tractor stuck in our field and my grandad brought two of his boys down to pull it out they follwed him down to the bog stood solid while they were hooked onto it then even now in his 70's jumped up asked them to move on and they pulled it out. I can see him now going up the road sat astride Charlie, smoking his pipe muttering about the new fangled machinery. A trust and a working partnership that this linda person will never hope to achieve I hope folk at the end of the day can see this crew for what they are a set of idiots.

What a lovely story
 

lhotse

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Andy, you haven't answered my question. How is the Parelli's treatment of those horses, as shown in the video, any different to the scenario I have described?
 

mcnaughty

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As we have the same arguments over and over again on Parelli- its only supposed to be a bit of fun, so try not to get outraged!

Parelli( or Marmite for horsy people) - a synopsis if you can’t be bothered to read yet another thread

Parelli Lovers (PL)
Parelli is great, it just the best, you all must do it now!

Parelli Haters (PH)
It looks awful and cruel, why are they waving sticks around and yanking the horse with a rope?

PL
Tchah! Silly people, it’s because the horse was on a ‘right brain prey drive on a bus ‘mode!
PH
Still don’t like it, the horse looks very unhappy. And how much is all the stuff?!

PL
Look at the lovely video where my horse does stuff as if by magic. Plus he looks really happy doing it

PH
Looks damn silly to me. I like normal horse stuff, me, going round in circles, the occasional hup over a log, sensible underwear, mustn’t grumble, ooh isn’t the weather frightful.

PL
You’re so closed minded. And stupid!

PH
You’re stupid!
PL
No you are!
PH
No you!

Ad nauseam for 20 or so pages

LOL - this is so true - why can't they just agree to disagree....
 

paddi22

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yeah andy you avoided the question completely. as a parelli following would you treat you horse the same way catwalk was treated or the way linda treated that semi-blind horse?
 

Lisamd

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Gggrrr she makes my blood boil! I would love to tie a bit of rope to her head and thrash it about for a bit, stupid woman.

I'm sorry people who rate parelli but seriously does this really look natural to you? Ask yourselves, deep down ar you happy to treat your horses like this?? I certainly wouldn't because I have too much respect and admiration for my horses (and before you ask I do ride, and compete and my bunch are a happy, non confused lot who know exactly where they stand through conventional horsemanship).

Its called a Band Wagon, Pat and Linda are driving it and it's full of people who need their heads examined :(
 

Natch

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The next time someone suggests a chifney for a bad leader or loader, or gives advice that a be nice or dually halter might help a youngster that is getting bolshy to lead, I'd ask you to consider how cruel these methods are in the hands of a novice. How dangerous is it when a horse does not respect your space and walks all over you? What do you do about it?

The ONLY 100% successful method of loading an unwilling horse I have ever witnessed is basically what Parelli does.

I think we could lump most equine disciplines under the same two generalities if we try hard enough.

Any method can be cruel in the hands of a novice or an experienced person. But it is fair enough to expect the experts at the top of a HUGE school of thought to get it right more often than not ;)

I watched a video this week from Andrew McLean. One minute he was saying how the horse's mouth is so sensitive, the next he was shown yanking a chifney about in a horse's mouth because he moved one step because of the sound of clippers :confused: Few trainers who are idolised so are without their faults.

As for loading horses, without referring to youtube I have seen someone with a parelli'd horse make a hash out of loading, seen zillions of bad loaders (that's the handler, not the horse!) at shows and events, and seen plenty of calm quiet and good loaders both traditionally and through natural horsemanship. Heck, I've sorted problem loaders myself, using traditional, a dually, and with natural horsemanship (but importantly not strictly parelli) methods. Maybe you haven't looked too far if you've only seen good examples of loading unwilling horses under the parelli style. Or maybe there are 100s of horses you've seen load ok but you never knew they used to have a problem ;)

Taking your time and having lots of patients works wonders.

The only thing Parelli achieves is making the horse more scared of you than it is of anything else and that to me is not a true bond.

If there was one piece of advice that I could give to everyone, regardless of your preferred training method, its just what Laura says: take your time and have patience with your horse. Violence, rushing things, they solve nothing. Those are the two things that I object to in many parelli videos, yet it was Pat himself who was famous for quoting "take the time it takes". Yet again, I see more evidence which affirms my belief that Pat and Linda have seriously lost their way with horses. :(

the big problem is...

Is that most of you on here are very set in your ways and you do not WANT to learn more or be open.

I would invite you to watch my horse and I at liberty - type into youtube:

"Jodie & Bouncer Playing at Liberty Feb 2011"

With any training methods... there are good parts that i agree with.. and some i do not agree with.

Jodie, the real problem in forums like this is polarised views: "you all think this," and "you all say that," not to mention variants of the good old "you just don't understand horses." You come to the table with intelligence, so please don't get caught up in those circular arguements!

Congratulations on your fantastic work at liberty with your horse; I have only achieved maybe 20% of the things you have in that video.

I have seen some fantastic work with horses using NH methods. I've been a part of a fair bit myself. My arguement is that its almost never Linda or Pat in the instances I see that I like, and god knows I've studied them hard! The best NHmanship from under the Parelli umbrella that I have seen to date is where people take the Parelli programme and deviate from it to suit themselves and the horse.

My personal bug bear with the parelli programme is that if it is so good, why are there SO many videos around showing bad horsemanship, which feature linda and pat?! Catwalk, trailer loading, hitting the horse repeatedly with the carrot stick, hitting the horse repeatedly with the snap... compare them to videos of a much nicer nature, and see what proportion of each feature pat and or linda.
 

Amaranta

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Any method can be cruel in the hands of a novice or an experienced person. But it is fair enough to expect the experts at the top of a HUGE school of thought to get it right more often than not ;)

I watched a video this week from Andrew McLean. One minute he was saying how the horse's mouth is so sensitive, the next he was shown yanking a chifney about in a horse's mouth because he moved one step because of the sound of clippers :confused: Few trainers who are idolised so are without their faults.

As for loading horses, without referring to youtube I have seen someone with a parelli'd horse make a hash out of loading, seen zillions of bad loaders (that's the handler, not the horse!) at shows and events, and seen plenty of calm quiet and good loaders both traditionally and through natural horsemanship. Heck, I've sorted problem loaders myself, using traditional, a dually, and with natural horsemanship (but importantly not strictly parelli) methods. Maybe you haven't looked too far if you've only seen good examples of loading unwilling horses under the parelli style. Or maybe there are 100s of horses you've seen load ok but you never knew they used to have a problem ;)



If there was one piece of advice that I could give to everyone, regardless of your preferred training method, its just what Laura says: take your time and have patience with your horse. Violence, rushing things, they solve nothing. Those are the two things that I object to in many parelli videos, yet it was Pat himself who was famous for quoting "take the time it takes". Yet again, I see more evidence which affirms my belief that Pat and Linda have seriously lost their way with horses. :(



Jodie, the real problem in forums like this is polarised views: "you all think this," and "you all say that," not to mention variants of the good old "you just don't understand horses." You come to the table with intelligence, so please don't get caught up in those circular arguements!

Congratulations on your fantastic work at liberty with your horse; I have only achieved maybe 20% of the things you have in that video.

I have seen some fantastic work with horses using NH methods. I've been a part of a fair bit myself. My arguement is that its almost never Linda or Pat in the instances I see that I like, and god knows I've studied them hard! The best NHmanship from under the Parelli umbrella that I have seen to date is where people take the Parelli programme and deviate from it to suit themselves and the horse.

My personal bug bear with the parelli programme is that if it is so good, why are there SO many videos around showing bad horsemanship, which feature linda and pat?! Catwalk, trailer loading, hitting the horse repeatedly with the carrot stick, hitting the horse repeatedly with the snap... compare them to videos of a much nicer nature, and see what proportion of each feature pat and or linda.


A resoundingly good post!
 

AndySpooner

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Well, I really didn't mean to avoid the question, and I don't sit on the computer all day, but do enjoy the discussion.

The short answer is that what you describe bears no relation to the video clips shown.

In the video where L P is showing someone how to bump the rope, she does say that if its done right once is enough. It's not about hitting the horse in the face with the metal clip, but sending energy down the rope.

Where PP is shown loading, or trying to, I see a lot of energy being used swinging the rope round but little if any contact. I note though that the release is very sharp and he stops spinning it as soon as the horse moves its feet.

A lot of the arm waving is keeping the horse out of the personal space. If you look at lots of posts on here people ask about horses running over them or dragging them about. Basicall, if you use a short lead rope you invite the horse to be far too close to you, by gripping it under the chin and trying to micromanage the head, you have little or no control. Many people then resort to hitting the horse in the face with a crop, as the situation becomes dangerous for them.

Better then to have the horse out of your space and a bump with the long lead rope achieves this.

As far as loading in a bridle, I note that a tremendous amount of pressure is applied without release when someone stands in the trailer, patiently leaning on the reins.

I have also seen horses being blindfolded to load, hit with whips and crops, blue pipe, yard brooms lead ropes and lunge reins, all at horse shows where no one objects.

Your comment about the traveller camp is not really just. I know of show people who tie ponies up overnight with a heavy sack on their back to knock an inch off the height.

One eyed horses are always a risk to the handler, and only last week I heard of a local person being hospitalized as his horse accidentally belted him on the head as it was far too close in his personal space.

I feel it is better to replace the metal clip with a knot, but that's a personal thing.

In short then I do not feel that the videos shown amount to cruelty.

As far as Catwalk goes, I wasn't there and have only seen some poor quality footage.

However, I do think that he must have been a problem if the Whittaker yard asked PP to help.

I think that PP totally underestimated this horse which just kept upping the ante on him. I did note that Catwalk left the arena without breaking a sweat whilst PP was totally knackered. That's horses for you, they make a fool of anyone, expert or not.

I know that many will pick over this reply and come up with all sorts of counter arguments, and I accept that. However, in truth I feel that Parelli is an easy target, as it is mostly practised by novices which is what people see at their yards.

I note that many start their post with 'I don't see why, or what', and I wouldn't expect them too. There is far more to all this than a bit of rope swinging.

The assertion that horses are mentally scarred by Parelli is rubbish, as my own bear testament to. I've no doubt that some horses do suffer by people attempting this method of trainong, but as most conventional trainers say, there are few problem horses, its mostly the owner.
 

lhotse

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Andy - "The short answer is that what you describe bears no relation to the video clips shown."

Oh, but that scenerio is identical to what is being show in the videos....

Andy - "In the video where L P is showing someone how to bump the rope, she does say that if its done right once is enough. It's not about hitting the horse in the face with the metal clip, but sending energy down the rope. "

That is why she is shown repeatedly 'bumping' the rope and hitting the horse with the metal clip? Because she can do it right???

Andy - " Many people then resort to hitting the horse in the face with a crop, as the situation becomes dangerous for them."

You mean like Linda Parelli does, or does it not count because it's called a 'carrot stick'??

Andy - "Your comment about the traveller camp is not really just. "

Why not?

Andy - "In short then I do not feel that the videos shown amount to cruelty."

Then I pity your horses...

Andy - "I know that many will pick over this reply and come up with all sorts of counter arguments, and I accept that. However, in truth I feel that Parelli is an easy target, as it is mostly practised by novices which is what people see at their yards."

Hold on, this is the Parelli's themselves on display.

Andy - "I note that many start their post with 'I don't see why, or what', and I wouldn't expect them too. There is far more to all this than a bit of rope swinging."

I dread to think...........
QUOTE]
 
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Amaranta

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It's nice to have a more balanced argument from you and, believe it or not, I agree with you on some points, but, unsurprisingly, disagree on others:

Well, I really didn't mean to avoid the question, and I don't sit on the computer all day, but do enjoy the discussion.

The short answer is that what you describe bears no relation to the video clips shown.

In the video where L P is showing someone how to bump the rope, she does say that if its done right once is enough. It's not about hitting the horse in the face with the metal clip, but sending energy down the rope.

I cannot agree with the clip, and nice to see that you personally do not either. I do think that to get a horse's attention, you sometimes have to give it a short sharp shock, but LP does this more than once, she also seems to employ the clip when the horse is not actually doing anything wrong.



Where PP is shown loading, or trying to, I see a lot of energy being used swinging the rope round but little if any contact. I note though that the release is very sharp and he stops spinning it as soon as the horse moves its feet.

I just do not like his method of loading a problem horse, he gives the horse no chance to make a decision of his/her own, sorry but I have dealt with lots of 'problem' loaders and still think that there is no substitute for quiet patience. My own horses, even those that started wiith a problem, practically walk up the ramp on their own.

A lot of the arm waving is keeping the horse out of the personal space. If you look at lots of posts on here people ask about horses running over them or dragging them about. Basicall, if you use a short lead rope you invite the horse to be far too close to you, by gripping it under the chin and trying to micromanage the head, you have little or no control. Many people then resort to hitting the horse in the face with a crop, as the situation becomes dangerous for them.

Again, the arm waving is expelling too much energy, if a horse is trained correctly there is no need for arm waving. Now I do understand that the horses in the videos are there because they have a problem, but you do not actually have to wave your arms around like a demented banshee to get what you want. I had a young dominant mare who would invade your space at a moments notice, I used a short crop (as an extention of my arm) to guide her, consistently to where I wanted her to be. We had a 'naughty corner' in the stable, I never had to hit her with the crop - not once, my body language told her where I wanted her to be, if you had hit this horse in the face with ANYTHING, she would have come right back at you with her front legs. By the time this mare left me, she was a colmplete poppet.

Better then to have the horse out of your space and a bump with the long lead rope achieves this.

see above

As far as loading in a bridle, I note that a tremendous amount of pressure is applied without release when someone stands in the trailer, patiently leaning on the reins.

I have also seen horses being blindfolded to load, hit with whips and crops, pipe, yard brooms lead ropes and lunge reins, all at horse shows where no one objects.

I agree, you see some terrible sights at a horse show, but please don't think that all 'traditional' people behave this way, we also think it is wrong and I have intervened

Your comment about the traveller camp is not really just. I know of show people who tie ponies up overnight with a heavy sack on their back to knock an inch off the height.
Agree, there is a lot of practices that I would not condone, but, again, not everyone uses them

One eyed horses are always a risk to the handler, and only last week I heard of a local person being hospitalized as his horse accidentally belted him on the head as it was far too close in his personal space.

Yes, a one eyed horse CAN inadvertently hurt his handler, but in this instance LP continued to punish the horse without let up, it was fairly obvious to anyone who can read horses, that this poor animal did not have a clue what she wanted, not his fault, it was LP's fault, she did not give clear instructions, nor did she give the horse a chance to work out what she wanted = BAD HORSEMANSHIP. Yes there is equally bad horsemanship in the traditional world, I would not deny that, but LP is in a very powerful position and has set herself up as an 'expert' THAT is what is unforgiveable, well that and the inability to admit that A) she does not know everything there is to know and B) She can and does make mistakes

I feel it is better to replace the metal clip with a knot, but that's a personal thing.
Amen to that!

In short then I do not feel that the videos shown amount to cruelty.

We will have to agree to disagree

As far as Catwalk goes, I wasn't there and have only seen some poor quality footage.

However, I do think that he must have been a problem if the Whittaker yard asked PP to help.

I think that PP totally underestimated this horse which just kept upping the ante on him. I did note that Catwalk left the arena without breaking a sweat whilst PP was totally knackered. That's horses for you, they make a fool of anyone, expert or not.

You may not have been there but I actually was, I was disgusted.

We agree that PP totallly underestimated this horse, he also failed to read him correctly. Now we all make mistakes, of course we do, the problem is PP did not recognise that this horse was way over his head, and rather than think it through he resorted to tying the horse down. When a horse is immobilised in this way, it actually thinks that it is going to die, because that is what a prey animal thinks like. PP compounded his mistake by failing to admit it and then effectively saying that the audience was at fault as they did not understand his methods. Two words - stupidity and - arrogance, not a good trait in a trainer.

I know that many will pick over this reply and come up with all sorts of counter arguments, and I accept that. However, in truth I feel that Parelli is an easy target, as it is mostly practised by novices which is what people see at their yards.

I actually completely agree with you on this, the majority of people seen practising Parelli are novices, some of whom do not have the horsesense to question the methods

I note that many start their post with 'I don't see why, or what', and I wouldn't expect them too. There is far more to all this than a bit of rope swinging.

The assertion that horses are mentally scarred by Parelli is rubbish, as my own bear testament to. I've no doubt that some horses do suffer by people attempting this method of trainong, but as most conventional trainers say, there are few problem horses, its mostly the owner.

Andy, your horses may well be well rounded individuals, but remember those novices? Their horses can be completely confused/mentally scarred.

I also have to add, that although LP is supposedly an 'expert' from what I have seen of the way she works, I suspect she has mentally scarred more than one poor animal.

Yes you were right, I have picked through your post, believe it or not, I admire your enthusiasm, I also admire the way you defend your ideals, even if I think they are misplaced, just please do not call us dumb and ignorant (effectively what PP called us after the Catwalk affair), this is just bound to get the wrong reaction from us.
 

fburton

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I watched a video this week from Andrew McLean. One minute he was saying how the horse's mouth is so sensitive, the next he was shown yanking a chifney about in a horse's mouth because he moved one step because of the sound of clippers :confused:
As a matter of interest, what video was that?
 

pip6

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Personally I feel (not a generalisation here but my own opinion) that the biggest issue people have with watching these videos is that the people inflicting the 'method' on the animals are supposed to be the most knowledgable, experienced & best role models of said method in the world, which surely all people who have signed up to this method are meant to aspire to.

By saying I do this method but don't do as the founders do is a very interesting position. Is that an point of saying they have taken a step too far in terms of their behaviour towards the horses?

I don't believe that any one methos works for every horse, just like not every person learns the same way. Another thing which I, as a sat on the fence kind of person which just doesn't like seeing aggresive tactics, notes, is that there does seem to be a dearth of videos showing aggression connected to the use of this method. Why isn't there a simillar proportion of other well known handlers shown in a simillar light?
 

AndySpooner

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I had decided to knock this thread on the head, but, seeing as we are being reasonable I'll give it another shot.

As you may have already read, I have backed and brought on horses using conventional methods but now prefer less conventional or natural methods. Personally speaking I think that the term 'natural' is not a very good phrase to use as there is very little natural about anything we do with horses.

I say this because people on this forum tend to be straight line thinkers and if you say that you are interested in natural horsemanship then you must be anti conventional/traditional which isn't the case, for me anyway.

I have lots of issues with the way people keep and treat horses here in the UK and a lot of this stems from traditional horsekeeping popularized over the years by the BHS which has done some good work but also overseen some horrendous practices.

For me the whole Parelli thing epitomises a lot of the views people hold, and tend to jump into one camp or other not really for any genuine reason but what appears to be the current popular stance.

I don't really care one way or another who supports what school of thought, but what does amuse me is the constant hypocrisy that becomes apparent when reading through the threads.

Just to give a small example, around the time of the Catwalk thing, someone posted a problem with putting a headcollar on a horse. Some of the advice was increadable and put what PP had allegedly done in the shade.

Interesting that you mention the prey animal fear of death when laid down. I've heard PP say the same ie the most extreme thing you can do to a horse, short of killing it.

I am now more than ever convinced that many horses are subjected to casual institutionalized abuse by folk who know no better, and who think that because the industry condone things it must be right.

I don't expect many to agree with me, as most probably think they are doing the right thing.

I would like to see a major overhall of all the advice given to horsekeers from diet to housing, from training to exercise.

My horses are well rounded individuals, but this is because of the all round package.
 

fburton

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As far as loading in a bridle, I note that a tremendous amount of pressure is applied without release when someone stands in the trailer, patiently leaning on the reins.

I have also seen horses being blindfolded to load, hit with whips and crops, blue pipe, yard brooms lead ropes and lunge reins, all at horse shows where no one objects.
Of course, but that does not mean that all "traditional" people resort to such crude, forceful methods, or that "natural" handlers are immune from using intense psychological pressure. Beware of creating false dichotomies.

I think that PP totally underestimated this horse which just kept upping the ante on him.
It takes two to tango. Maybe if PP hadn't allowed matters to escalate, he wouldn't have found himself in the guddle that he did - and saved the horse unnecessary distress. Clearly "matching energy" was not the right strategy here; he would have done better to stick resolutely to the softly, softly approach - even though it would have been rather boring to watch.
 

Amaranta

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I agree that there is much in the horseworld that I would like to see changed, people feeding too much cereal, horses not getting turnout etc etc

I would class myself as a 'traditionalist' with a leaning towards 'natural', I actually look at everything (as we never stop learning), which is why I watched the PP demo. The problem I, and I am sure many others have is that there are a lot of people out there practising bad Parelli and these people are often, without trying to sound arrogant, not as experienced or in tune with their horses. These same people then proceed to tell us that we are doing it all wrong, amusing sometimes when you watch them actually handling their horses (badly!).

I am not for a minute suggesting that you are one of the above btw!

The Parelli organisation seems to advocate a 'My way or the highway' philosophy and this just does not work in reality. The thing about horses is that they are as individual as people, and what will work for one will not work with another, for instance I have an extremely confident mare who actually needs to be firmly handled, I also have another mare who is so sensitive that if you treated her in the same way I am sure she would have a nervous breakdown and, if you used a rope in the way LP does, she would die a thousand deaths.


The fact that PP states that tying a horse down is the worst thing you can do to it other than killing it makes what happened with Catwalk that much worse, he KNEW how that horse would feel. I am not trying to be argumentative but how can this be right?
 

Fellewell

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This vid has been around for a while. The owner is clearly over-horsed and although the trainer gained control immediately the owner was a lost cause. Should the trainer have persevered? How many instructors persevere with average pupils, often at the expense of the horse?
As for Catwalk, I didn't see the video but no ones going to convince me that there isn't a head girl at one of the Whitaker yards that can't bridle a difficult horse.:confused:
 

AndySpooner

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Not saying it is, why would I ?
I think that with the Catwalk thing PP has probably sorted hundreds of similar problems and clearly thought that to sort this in an arena watched by a non Parelli audience would be a good thing.

Unfortunately for him the horse had other ideas.
 

fburton

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As for Catwalk, I didn't see the video but no ones going to convince me that there isn't a head girl at one of the Whitaker yards that can't bridle a difficult horse.:confused:
Apparently they could bridle Catwalk, but with considerable difficulty. I'm not convinced that every traditional person, even someone professional, would realize the amount of time, patience and sensitivity that could easily be required to overcome extreme headshyness - or be able to set aside the time needed. (Counterconditioning would almost certainly be useful, but how many are prepared to employ food rewards in the rigorous way needed to be effective and not merely a distraction.)
 

lhotse

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The video in question, and probably all the others as well, have been removed from YouTube now, but I think enough people have already seen it to be disgusted. Someone on my yard has one of these Parelli ropes and the clip is very heavy, I would think it enough to do some real damage to a horse, physically.
 
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