Another reason to boycott Baileys...

[cundlegreen]

They amaze me ID’s once mature they seem to be able to live on air .
I have had to accept you can’t feed them ad-lib forage and keep them slim looking unless they are working very hard .
You get a few easy years when they are maturing but once they top out you have to so careful .

I don't know about when mature! I've just bought my first ID, a 6 month old foal that I am being very careful when feeding. He is huge, 14.1hh already with tree trunk legs. Having been warned by a couple of irish people that ID's are suffering from OCD and spavins, I am being very careful to feed him as little hard feed as possible, and bulking him with hay. He really does eat for england!

 

[dorsetladette]

Aside from the welfare issue with strapping a horses head down for extended periods of time, I don't understand what it's supposed to achieve. It won't work to train it to keep its head down as the horse gets pressure but no release. I'd imagine it would just cause sore/ pulled muscles.

From what I remember when asking as a kid why it was done (out of the mouths of babes, generally very loudly on a show ground LOL) It was explained to me like this.

We had a pony come to us with massive muscle build up underneath his neck - this was due to him being stabled most of his life and being fed hay from a hay rack that was far to high, so he spent most of his time reaching up to either pull hay or look over the door. He was turned out and when stabled fed from the floor which corrected the muscling up in time. So, it was explained to me as a child that the tying in for long periods worked in much the same way. That the muscle would develop unnaturally in the neck and the pony would then appear to have a nice head carriage.

So I've always thought you end up with overdeveloped muscle on top and under developed underneath the neck.

 

[Goldenstar]

You are taking the comment by GS out of context, I have no idea if that's intentional or not. The horse is obscene and it's cruel I feel that's been agreed on by all, what GS said is the fat or lack of it does not prevent them from being able to see if the conformation of that horse is correct or not, that in turn allows them to picture in their mind what the horse would look like at th correct body weight

It’s just Mrs J going off on one of her random tirades. She does this from time to time. Maybe she needs to let off steam somewhere and HHO is where she does this.

It was clear to the rest of us that GS was as horrified as the rest of us at Jovian’s gross obesity. Here are some of GS’s earlier posts. Perhaps Mrs J didn’t read the full thread, though I suspect that she did.

Thank you both very much but there is no need

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

This thread has reminded me of a well-known, highly respected BSPS judge that I was stewarding for one day, many years ago. He was muttering darkly about LR and her horses, even then (must be well over 10 yrs ago).

That judge is sadly missed but obviously not all the judges of his era were of the same mind, unfortunately.

 

[ecb89]

Weighed portions of soaked hay, grazing (restricted in summer), Topchop Zero for when she's scoffed everything and currently 1/4 Stubbs scoop fast fibre with some supplements in. Was Speedibeet but she went off it.

Basically not very much! She's still fatter than I'd like.

Mine gets handful of hifi and a tiny bit of speedibeet as a carrier for his equivite, linseed and global herbs immuplus. Plus massive amounts of hay.

We moved yards early September and he is now on much more hay.

He was always really lethargic and getting viruses at his old yard. Didn’t want to go forwards. Had blood tests and was anaemic. Now showing signs of ulcers, think he’s has them for at least a year unfortunately

 

[tristar]

How rude.
One of mine lives her life on steroids and she's nowhere near that fat (I will admit she's a bit curvy at times though).

sorry to say, i have been on yards where steroids were given to show horses to make them look like that

 

[Goldenstar]

I have to restrict my ID’s access to forage most of the time .
At the minute they are on rationed amounts of low energy haylege .
They are getting turnout ( varied amounts due to what’s going on ) but there’s still grass so I am having to careful when they are inside .
H is my main worry because he’s hunting and needs to be slim he’s been in work since May had a bare paddock and was standing in all day in summer .
He’s a very good doer he’s hunting on half a scoop of bran a sprinkle of oats and a double hand full of grass cubes and measured haylege .
If he has to miss turn out ( he has not yet ) I will use Top CHop zero and swingers he loosing weight now because he’s hunting I think three perhaps four weeks from now I will be able to increase the forage .
Fatty who is retired is on a even stricter regime one thing about him is he won’t eat straw chop he just wastes it he’s out all day and on minimal forage at night but he’s looking slimmer the best since he retired I will crack it this winter .
Sky the new boy is on a little more than H he’s lost weight since he arrived so I can be a little more relaxed he’s gets the same meagre bucket feed he will start hunting soon I expect I will be able to increase the forage quite quickly once that happens .

I love ID’s , but don’t buy one unless you can have a weight loss / control strategy that you can stick to .
They are heavy horses and if you want them to hunt and last you need to protect them by getting them slim , easier said than done .
I took me time to accept you can’t give them all the forage they will eat unless they are working really hard .

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I think you've misread what she said. Her point (certainly how I and most other posters have read it) was that whether a horse is obese or emaciated, she can tell if it is well put together. I'll admit I did have to read it twice to get this - at first, like you, I thought she meant it didn't matter if a horse was fat or thin.

Thank you HashRouge for your reasonable and polite critique of my post and my interpretation and intentions on this thread. Point taken - from you anyway

 

[mle22]

We have an ID that events and also does a little showing. We always joke that at events, she’s the fattest horse there, but at shows, she’s one of the skinniest. If we let her eat as much as she’d like and hogged her, we could turn her into a maxi cob very easily!

 

[dorsetladette]

sorry to say, i have been on yards where steroids were given to show horses to make them look like that

Its sad that this sort of thing prospers yet my parents dissolved their business as apparently a 'properly' produced pony that takes time and patience to set them up for a long and successful showing career (or any other career) is not what the majority of people want. Big bucks can be made with corner cutting, but at the cost of the horse. I imagine this horse will probably develop some some of back or neck problem later on down the line.

Ponies my parents produced worked their way up through the ranks slowly and then maintained that position for a long time. Unfortunately the fat grey cob just shows that cutting corners doesn't produce a long lasting 'working' horse in any sphere.

 

[cobgoblin]

I find it really sad that LR has come to this.

I bought a maxi cob off her years ago, before she was famous.... And I mean many years ago, we had that cob for thirty years. At the time she was very concerned about her horses and we found her pleasant to deal with.

 

[dominobrown]

Side reins are not evil, there is a time and place for them if correctly used (I have used them today), however in that clip they are far from correct.
Also in my opinion, and I may be wrong, is that if you teach a horse to go like that it will be one that always “hides” behind the contact and over curls/ bends, which I think is often harder to fix than one which is a little above the bit.
I have just broken in a stunning cappa Irish draught, similar time Jovian. She was like a side of house when she came but slimmed down nicely. Never actually did use side reins on her. She was a bit pokey nosed and all over the place, but a bit further down the line (she is now riding 5) when she is balanced (big youngsters due struggle with balance) she actually has a lovely outline. It’s by no means consistent, just a glimpse of what will come when she is more balanced and developed. Problem is to produce her for the show ring from a 4 year old to what LR / show producers have them like it would probably take me 3/4 years 😂
I actually do school show cobs for a top producer and they are actually properly produced. They are big but fit, with a lot of top line but actually not much fat. Think they are fed baileys too actually but they are fed the lo cal balanced and Speedi beet I think. They do gallop/ fast work at least once a week, a lot of road work and school and few times a week and have a “fun” session playing over poles/ jumps etc. They are actually very fit... they can go for a 2 hour hack with fast work in and manage fine.

 

[meleeka]

That’s good to know dominobrown, that this isn’t the norm for top producers.

I knew someone that left their horses tied for hours like this. The horse was poor and it did have a very weedy neck but it was a general lack of condition. Thank goodness this method didn’t actual work as it would have looked most odd with muscle on the top of its neck and literally none anywhere else! The same people were prosecuted later after a dead pony was found in a stable that had been there a couple of weeks 😱

 

[Cortez]

"Tying back" is unfortunately still done at some of the more backward yards here in Ireland, although I feel/hope it is disappearing as people embrace more enlightened, modern approaches to backing and training. I have seen horses tied in their stables for hours, even turned out in fields like this. It is instantly apparent when a horse has been started in this way and leads to a lifetime of evasion and contact problems, especially when combined with the use of the terrible old "key" bits, and woefully inexpert long lining.

Ridiculous, massively old fashioned, and harmful / downright cruel.

 

[Shilasdair]

sorry to say, i have been on yards where steroids were given to show horses to make them look like that

I know - I wasn't being serious in accusing you of rudeness.
My point was more that, despite being on steroids for around 9 years, my mare is yet to reach the levels of obesity that grey had achieved before its sad demise.

 

[ester]

Not all steroids are the same though.

 

[FlyingCircus]

If someone on FB is to believed, looks likr Baileys are washing their hands of the whole situation with a comment to say they can't control what their sponsors do..


Well, no. But you can stop sponsoring them. I despair.

 

[JFTDWS]

Not all steroids are the same though.

One presumes that Shils horse was not on anabolic steroids for the purpose of building up!

 

[ester]

exactly

 

[Shilasdair]

One presumes that Shils horse was not on anabolic steroids for the purpose of building up!

No, although the ones she is on are bad for weight gain theoretically. I think the problem is that very few horses are on them long term so the side effects aren't completely known.

 

[Shilasdair]

Thinking about it, I am sure I've read somewhere that anabolic steroids don't work for horses - so it may be more effective to use corticosteroids if weight gain/increased appetite is your plan.

It's not my plan, incidentally, I'm supressing the beast's immune system.

 

[NinjaPony]

I used to be stables near LR, about 10 years ago, and at that time was interested in showing. Even back then I was warned by a few people not to go anywhere near her, as she was so hard on her horses. Sad to see that this clearly wasn’t just rumour. Horrible, horrible way to treat a horse, and does demonstrate just how rotten top level showing can really be.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

It’s just Mrs J going off on one of her random tirades. She does this from time to time. Maybe she needs to let off steam somewhere and HHO is where she does this.

It was clear to the rest of us that GS was as horrified as the rest of us at Jovian’s gross obesity. Here are some of GS’s earlier posts. Perhaps Mrs J didn’t read the full thread, though I suspect that she did.

It wasn’t random the post could be read two ways. Other people read the same. sonce that post was pages ago why don’t we go back to the topic at hand. Or is it all just about getting a tuppence worth in.

I see there still hasn’t been a reply other than the young girl who seems to be her groom? Have Bailey a replied? Or have I missed that due to the other stuff being posted??

 

[honetpot]

From what I remember when asking as a kid why it was done (out of the mouths of babes, generally very loudly on a show ground LOL) It was explained to me like this.

We had a pony come to us with massive muscle build up underneath his neck - this was due to him being stabled most of his life and being fed hay from a hay rack that was far to high, so he spent most of his time reaching up to either pull hay or look over the door. He was turned out and when stabled fed from the floor which corrected the muscling up in time. So, it was explained to me as a child that the tying in for long periods worked in much the same way. That the muscle would develop unnaturally in the neck and the pony would then appear to have a nice head carriage.

So I've always thought you end up with overdeveloped muscle on top and under developed underneath the neck.

It can not really work that way as muscle is developed by exercise, that’s why body builders do specific exercises to build up certain areas. If it worked they would just tie up their arms. An athlete has to maintain flexibility so uses exercise to develop muscles in a different way.
The best example of the difference between fat and muscle I have seen is a joint of beef. Muscle tissue is pink it’s cells can be enlarged by exercise and muscle cells work together in organised groups. Fat is white and has and is laid down on top of muscle mainly and is there to store energy. As it enlarges it just gets bigger storing more energy.
If you look at an animal that’s been tied in it’s learned to set the wrong muscles against the pressure, and also the the jaw so when you want it to bend or accept the bit it just runs through the shoulder as it’s muscles have lost flexibility. They may look to have enlarged muscles because other muscles have wasted due to lack of exercise in comparison. Then to cover it up you over feed so it gets fat and you get the classic rock hard neck.
It you added free walk on a loose rein to a set show I wonder how many could do it even for a few steps properly.

There was once a photo of a show hunter in the H&H that had spent the season hunting. You could see every muscle group, it the only show horse I have ever seen that actually was in show condition due to correct work not fat.

 

[Mari]

From the photo its in the school in a roller and side reins connected to a snaffle. Something people do all the time with a lunge rein attached. So it doesn't upset me, but I agree its not the best press image. She says its young but no idea what age it is.

Think it said 3 yr old cob starting training.

 

[sbloom]

I see kissing spines, SI and suspensory/hock problems in this cob's future. The schooling issues are horrible (contact, forwardness etc) but the damage that this posture will do will cause untold problems (only the very lucky get away with this sort of work scot-free!)

 

[Blazingsaddles]

It wasn’t random the post could be read two ways. Other people read the same. sonce that post was pages ago why don’t we go back to the topic at hand. Or is it all just about getting a tuppence worth in.

GS’ post were quite clear in their condemnation of Jovians obesity.

 

[DabDab]

It wasn’t random the post could be read two ways. Other people read the same. sonce that post was pages ago why don’t we go back to the topic at hand. Or is it all just about getting a tuppence worth in.

I see there still hasn’t been a reply other than the young girl who seems to be her groom? Have Bailey a replied? Or have I missed that due to the other stuff being posted??

Yes tbf I read some of GS' comments to be in support of the judge placing such an obese horse because he had such good conformation underneath. And I assume that was the end of the stick that MrsJ picked up (even if she did go in a bit heavy rather than trying to clarify 😜)

 

[DabDab]

That video is the pits, not that I would ever buy Bailey feed anyway

I real feel for the poor horses in that woman's care.

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

That’s bloody horrific, poor thing can barely walk. 😢