Another yard closure

[criso]

Really interesting and I rather like the consideration of how different spaces affect different groups. It would probably be a stronger argument if the female-focussed activity were something more accessible/affordable/popular. I don't have any girls and struggling to think of examples but there must be some.

One of the arguments tried in one closure was horse riding was one of the few activities older women engaged in. They're a group that are difficult to reach. Sports England weren't very helpful and this was on the back of 2012 and GB success in equestrian sport. The only other thing i can think of is walking/ dog walking in which case I'm sure people would rather walk along a footpath surrounded by fields than a footpath that technically still has that designation but is now a road with houses on both sides.

However for me it's not just about the previous usage of the land. Around London which we are talking about, the greenbelt is a really valuable corridor which provides benefits for the whole population. It's chipping away at it because this bit isn't particularly beautiful or has some buildings or isn't profitable until there's none left. I would feel it was a loss if it was a football field or a golf course.

Yards are a target because they are often in areas rich people would like to live in and the equestrian buildings means it's easier to get planning than a field. However it's not as complicated to develop as brownfield sites that have had industrial use and cost more to remove what's there.

 

[marmalade76]

Really interesting and I rather like the consideration of how different spaces affect different groups. It would probably be a stronger argument if the female-focussed activity were something more accessible/affordable/popular. I don't have any girls and struggling to think of examples but there must be some.

I have one of each and they do nothing but eat, sleep, watch TV and play on their phones. The only outdoor thing they do is hang out at the yard with me when they're not at school/college.

 

[ycbm]

Build council houses and barely anything else.

I don't think that's the answer, I think it will simply result in the ghettos of low income households that I remember from my youth, which were sadly a magnet for crime and asbo collections.

The answer, I think, is what my local council planners do. The area around the new house we bought last year is two zones. We are in the "executive" development with houses more expensive than the average for the same number of beds (fewer per acre, bigger rooms). But in pockets around this estate there are small blocks of flats and terraces, the affordable housing that was required as part of the development.

The other half of this huge area is several hundred houses, also mixed in size, but all sold from new into shared ownership with a housing association.

All developments around here also have to have a children's play area, open spaces, mature trees left, new trees planted, and bird boxes.
.

 

[sbloom]

I don't think that's the answer, I think it will simply result in the ghettos of low income households that I remember from my youth, which were sadly a magnet for crime and asbo collections.

The answer, I think, is what my local council planners do. The area around the new house we bought last year is two zones. We are in the "executive" development with houses more expensive than the average for the same number of beds (fewer per acre, bigger rooms). But in pockets around this estate there are small blocks of flats and terraces, the affordable housing that was required as part of the development.

The other half of this huge area is several hundred houses, also mixed in size, but all sold from new into shared ownership with a housing association.

All developments around here also have to have a children's play area, open spaces, mature trees left, new trees planted, and bird boxes.
.

That's what all developers do, but you're talking about scale and location of affordable/housing association houses, I'm talking about who owns them.

RIBA stirling prize 2019 awarded to goldsmith street housing project in norwich

www.designboom.com

In the 50s and 60s having a council house and looking after it was a source of pride, we can do that again we just need a massive change in approach. Norwich still has very desirable areas of older council houses - https://themilecrossman.com/2019/11/20/a-century-of-council-housing-in-the-city-of-norwich/

George Clarke wades into the debate - https://www.councilhousescandal.co.uk - petition https://chng.it/c7fWWDjFxr

 

[ycbm]

That's what all developers do, but you're talking about scale and location of affordable/housing association houses, I'm talking about who owns them.

Doesn't Housing Association ownership = Council House but better managed?

It looks like it wherever I see HA properties.
.

 

[sbloom]

Doesn't Housing Association ownership = Council House but better managed?

It looks like it wherever I see HA properties.
.

Absolutely not. There are plenty that are really badly managed, and they cost the country a fortune as do private landlords. Council houses are an asset when well planned and well built.

Did you look at any of the links? And do read up about tenants' experiences with housing association homes, it's often not pretty.

 

[Abacus]

I don't think that's the answer, I think it will simply result in the ghettos of low income households that I remember from my youth, which were sadly a magnet for crime and asbo collections.

The answer, I think, is what my local council planners do. The area around the new house we bought last year is two zones. We are in the "executive" development with houses more expensive than the average for the same number of beds (fewer per acre, bigger rooms). But in pockets around this estate there are small blocks of flats and terraces, the affordable housing that was required as part of the development.

The other half of this huge area is several hundred houses, also mixed in size, but all sold from new into shared ownership with a housing association.

All developments around here also have to have a children's play area, open spaces, mature trees left, new trees planted, and bird boxes.
.

I read recently that a high % of shared equity owners are now into negative equity or will be soon. This is sad - what started with good intentions as a way to get people into ownership is unworkable due to falling prices and rising interest rates.

 

[ycbm]

Absolutely not. There are plenty that are really badly managed, and they cost the country a fortune as do private landlords. Council houses are an asset when well planned and well built.

Did you look at any of the links? And do read up about tenants' experiences with housing association homes, it's often not pretty.

It wasn't all sunshine and light with council houses from the 70s onwards either. "Sink Estates" as they were known were the result of weak management by Councils and a big reason why Housing Associations have taken their place. And Council Housing wasn't without cost, either.
.

 

[criso]

Doesn't Housing Association ownership = Council House but better managed?

It looks like it wherever I see HA properties.
.

It can also mean raised service charges which end up with debt. There was an example not far where council blocks were pulled down and replaced with fewer flats than before. There were pensioners who were among the lucky few allocated a flat but fixed income of a state pension who now weren't able to afford the extra costs.

And private isn't always better, there are ex council houses which may have initially been bought by the tenants under right to buy schemes which now are in the hands of dodgy buy to let landlords and are neglected, rundown and overcrowded.

 

[ycbm]

"Right to buy" was a crime as far as I'm concerned.
.

 

[criso]

It wasn't all sunshine and light with council houses from the 70s onwards either. "Sink Estates" as they were known were the result of weak management by Councils and a big reason why Housing Associations have taken their place. And Council Housing wasn't without cost, either.
.

I think as well once council housing was sold off and not replaced, it was limited to the poorest and disadvantaged which then does ghettoise estates.

I know a few people who managed to get a council flat as a single person with no special needs just by hanging around on the waiting list long enough.

 

[criso]

"Right to buy" was a crime as far as I'm concerned.
.

I wouldn't have objected to the principle if there had been a requirement that any sold would have to be replaced with similar in the same area.

 

[ycbm]

I wouldn't have objected to the principle if there had been a requirement that any sold would have to be replaced with similar in the same area.

I would. Why should someone get to buy a house ridiculously cheap just because they already rent it from a Council? Why should council tax payers have to pay higher rates to replace it?
.

 

[mariew]

I thought that was about genuine agricultural buildings, used as such in the last 10 years (ie Class Q or whatever it's called now) which wouldn't cover equestrian buildings?

I suspect it's not hard to convince a council desperate to meet housing targets that they are agricultural buildings... Thurrock seemed very happy to do big posh developments on yards. Somehow the developers always manage to fob off affordable housing to less desirable areas too.

 

[criso]

I would. Why should someone get to buy a house ridiculously cheap just because they already rent it from a Council? Why should council tax payers have to pay higher rates to replace it?

I was also thinking without discounts of up to 70%.

 

[sbloom]

I suspect it's not hard to convince a council desperate to meet housing targets that they are agricultural buildings... Thurrock seemed very happy to do big posh developments on yards. Somehow the developers always manage to fob off affordable housing to less desirable areas too.

Not the experience we had, I think it's much more to do with the power of developers than Class Q. And yet another reason why council housing has to be the answer, or at least part of it, the current rules around affordable housing are nonsense.

 

[sbloom]

It wasn't all sunshine and light with council houses from the 70s onwards either. "Sink Estates" as they were known were the result of weak management by Councils and a big reason why Housing Associations have taken their place. And Council Housing wasn't without cost, either.
.

Council housing pays for itself, it's an asset and a damned sight cheaper than paying HB/UC to private landlords. Sink estates come from poor planning, construction and maintenance, they are not inevitable. Imagine how one janitor position for an estate would make a difference to the quality of life there, and how much benefit that would have to society AND the economy, maintaining the outsides AND the insides and keeping an eye on everything. Joined up thinking.

 

[jules9203]

Going back to the OP and yard closures. I was having a conversation with some one today about the fact that in 20yrs time there won't be any small livery yards left. Yards will be large, most likely owned/managed by professionals (by that we meant similar to Germany). They will charge a lot but give a top class service and have excellent facilities. This will be to the detriment of most owners nowadays. Not sure if this will be the case but looking at this thread it could well be.

 

[JFTDWS]

And when they build largescale developments spilling out of urban areas into the countryside, they rarely support it with the infrastructure it should have. Schools, hospitals, railway stations, daycare centres, that sort of thing. It just puts more pressure on the existing services.

Urban/suburban planning is a mess.

I would object less to the conversion of every available space to housing if the councils actually put any effort at all into planning them. I am (currently) one district along from HPF and the development around here is absolutely huge in scale, and value, but nobody seems to be obliged to do anything about the appalling transport links, lack of infrastructure, no regard for the environmental consequences, exercise inequality or anything else. The sewerage system is overloaded, there isn't a cycle path anywhere in sight, the schools are over-subscribed, and the traffic is terrible. The public transport in the area varies between completely nonexistent and sporadic and unreliable. All the traffic runs through the centre of the town (medieval, narrow streets, completely unsuitable for the HGVs and level of traffic), but there's no investment in alternatives - whether in the form of cycle paths, public transport, safe walking routes, or by development of the road network. And yet, they're building, everywhere.

 

[Abacus]

I would. Why should someone get to buy a house ridiculously cheap just because they already rent it from a Council? Why should council tax payers have to pay higher rates to replace it?
.

It was an early levelling up agenda designed to help the poorest to have a hope in life - it’s not fair, but nor is the fact that some people are born to enormous wealth.

 

[ycbm]

I would object less to the conversion of every available space to housing if the councils actually put any effort at all into planning them. I am (currently) one district along from HPF and the development around here is absolutely huge in scale, and value, but nobody seems to be obliged to do anything about the appalling transport links, lack of infrastructure, no regard for the environmental consequences, exercise inequality or anything else. The sewerage system is overloaded, there isn't a cycle path anywhere in sight, the schools are over-subscribed, and the traffic is terrible. The public transport in the area varies between completely nonexistent and sporadic and unreliable. All the traffic runs through the centre of the town (medieval, narrow streets, completely unsuitable for the HGVs and level of traffic), but there's no investment in alternatives - whether in the form of cycle paths, public transport, safe walking routes, or by development of the road network. And yet, they're building, everywhere.

I've seen this in the South near where my SiL lived in Kent. I don't understand why it's so patchy. Up here, every new estate has open space, mature trees and children's play areas. The newest development has had to finish tarmac surfacing a new cycle path that was financed by other developments, and build a primary school.

The South East is dreadful, why can't the planners exercise the powers they have?
.

 

[ycbm]

It was an early levelling up agenda designed to help the poorest to have a hope in life - it’s not fair, but nor is the fact that some people are born to enormous wealth.

I don't think this is true. That was what we were told, but I think it was actually a policy to dump the responsibility for the cost of maintenance on people who were never otherwise going to move out of a council house. I think it backfired big time on the people who most need council housing by removing council house availability.
.

 

[ycbm]

ETA we've just had a really stern letter from our developers saying action will be taken against anyone mowing the wildflower meadow which houses a newt colony. Some pillock has been mowing the strip near his house to make a neat verge!
.

 

[mariew]

Not the experience we had, I think it's much more to do with the power of developers than Class Q. And yet another reason why council housing has to be the answer, or at least part of it, the current rules around affordable housing are nonsense.

Quite possibly, Thurrock was under incredible pressure to produce housing but I agree, i also think the developers were particularly adept in making executive 5 bed houses pop up everywhere. (From knowing how to play the long game in planning to paying nice [bribes] contributions towards social housing in more deprived areas.

 

[Abacus]

I don't think this is true. That was what we were told, but I think it was actually a policy to dump the responsibly for the cost of maintenance on people who were never otherwise going to move out of a council house. I think it backfired big time on the people who most need council housing by removing council house availability.

Don’t disagree at all about the reduction in council house availability and the effect on those that need help.

From the government’s point of view at that time: they turned a short term valueless asset (in that they couldn’t just sell those houses on the open market) into a cash injection and dropped the maintenance burden. I can see why that was appealing for them, and probably bad for the country’s finances long term. But it did also help a good number of people who would never otherwise have afforded a house, and one of the principles of a civilised society is to try to improve the chances of those who are poorest.

 

[mariew]

ETA we've just had a really stern letter from our developers saying action will be taken against anyone mowing the wildflower meadow which houses a newt colony. Some pillock has been mowing the strip near his house to make a neat verge!
.

I'm surprised they haven't paid for them to be relocated and built something on that land! Happened where I was .

 

[ycbm]

But it did also help a good number of people who would never otherwise have afforded a house, and one of the principles of a civilised society is to try to improve the chances of those who are poorest.

The people it helped was those who inherited on their parents' death, at the expense of everyone else who might have moved into that council house.

ETA i can't support a policy that gives someone a huge cash handout just because the happen already to live in a Council house. It doesn't seem like a fair selection policy for that money to me.
.

 

[ycbm]

I'm surprised they haven't paid for them to be relocated and built something on that land! Happened where I was .

I see huge differences between what's going on in the North and the South. We have newt barriers everywhere to stop them being squashed on the roads.
.

 

[Goldenstar]

Doesn't Housing Association ownership = Council House but better managed?

It looks like it wherever I see HA properties.
.

My father was the Secretary of a housinging association for years the tenants where all retired people .
I used to go with him to visit the houses right from being quite small and until quite recently I would have taken your view because I also visited council homes with my father and the council estates where a eye opener. I have have never forgotten the first time he took me to the council housing on the outskirts of our local town .
The poverty the poor condition of the houses made a real impression on me .
He followed that up by detouring us as a family into one of the poorest parts of Glasgow on the way to visit my Grandparents who lived north of Glasgow .
So what happened recently was the realisation that one of these awful black mould cases where a child died was in a housing association home a quick search of you tube quickly found numerous disgraceful examples of homes being rented in appalling conditions by councils, housing associations and almost the worse the ministry of defence who expect members of the armed forces and their families to live in unsafe homes while being expected to die for their country if called on to so .
Huge amounts of money is taken from working people to run the housing benefit system but it’s not a guarantee on a basically safe home .
The narrative in the press is mainly about bad private landlords and of course thre
many bad private landlords .
Bit this is not case of private bad state run or state supported good it’s way more complicated it’s about vast sums of money being sent with no oversight on standards
that in any way works .

 

[ycbm]

My father was the Secretary of a housinging association for years the tenants where all retired people .
I used to go with him to visit the houses right from being quite small and until quite recently I would have taken your view because I also visited council homes with my father and the council estates where a eye opener. I have have never forgotten the first time he took me to the council housing on the outskirts of our local town .
The poverty the poor condition of the houses made a real impression on me .
He followed that up by detouring us as a family into one of the poorest parts of Glasgow on the way to visit my Grandparents who lived north of Glasgow .
So what happened recently was the realisation that one of these awful black mould cases where a child died was in a housing association home a quick search of you tube quickly found numerous disgraceful examples of homes being rented in appalling conditions by councils, housing associations and almost the worse the ministry of defence who expect members of the armed forces and their families to live in unsafe homes while being expected to die for their country if called on to so .
Huge amounts of money is taken from working people to run the housing benefit system but it’s not a guarantee on a basically safe home .
The narrative in the press is mainly about bad private landlords and of course thre
many bad private landlords .
Bit this is not case of private bad state run or state supported good it’s way more complicated it’s about vast sums of money being sent with no oversight on standards
that in any way works .

I find it hard to understand why there are such huge differences between one area and another with private and HA and council housing. I have friends in Housing Association flats around this area which are lovely and well managed. Who didn't have to fight to get one, just applied and moved in. I know it is vastly different elsewhere and it makes me cross others don't have decent housing.
.