Anyone know what happened?

[I'm Dun]

The general public don’t give a toss. If they did, a lot of the most abhorrent farming and pet keeping practices in this country would no longer exist and meat from Thailand and the like wouldn’t be sold here.

If asked, most of them would nod and say oh yes horses have stables, right?

Well I've read plenty of comments saying otherwise. They don't give a toss, until someone tells them they should. Cheap meat benefits the general public so its never going to change. But the way horses are kept doesn't. And now lots of people are thinking about how dangerous they are, and how it could have been their car/bike/bus hit by a horse.

 

[ycbm]

and how it could have been their car/bike/bus/child hit by a horse.

I made a little edit.
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[ycbm]

King's Troop regularly ride and lead two when exercising without the guns...

Lead two? One rider three horses on a London road? Surely the most basic risk assessment tells them that's a bad idea?
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[teapot]

Lead two? One rider three horses on a London road? Surely the most basic risk assessment tells them that's a bad idea?
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Yup, a regular occurence in and around Woolwich, and occasionally central too when they're at Welly B. Video here:

 

[ycbm]

Yup, a regular occurence in and around Woolwich, and occasionally central too when they're at Welly B. Video here:

Just imagine what would have happened there if some builders had dropped concrete down a chute.
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[Ditchjumper2]

You cannot base life around what ifs! Decisions are made on the whole by studying the data. This was a one off. Shit happens it's life.

 

[Rowreach]

You cannot base life around what ifs! Decisions are made on the whole by studying the data. This was a one off. Shit happens it's life.

Risk management is an actual thing though.

 

[ycbm]

Risk management is an actual thing though.

I'm sure there are some heated discussions going on about the risk of exercising army horses in Central London now.

 

[Ditchjumper2]

Risk management is an actual thing though.

And I totally agree. But there is risk in everything. Everything is a risk but the question is, is it proportional and what is the probability of it happening? These horses have been exercised like this for years. How many times has an event like this happened? You don't change processes based on once in a blue moon events. Was it awful yes of course it was but some people need to be realistic too!

 

[criso]

I suspect it might well be to the general public though. People who own horses may be able to justify it. I couldn't. And giving examples of other places doing it doesn't make it anymore right, although these horses have it worse as they are inside, not access to sunlight or fresh air apart from the hour of exercise they get.

It's not a question of justifying it, I just don't think it would be any sort of revelation to people here that many competition and working horses are stabled 24/7 apart from exercise.

The general public are the ones that share videos on Facebook of dancing horses set to music and argue back if someone tries to explain that the horse is showing stress behaviours not 'dancing'.

Lots of people not just idiot reporters described seeing the horses galloping as magnificent or impressive. The ones that are upset are because they saw blood. Had it not been a grey but a darker colour that didn't show blood, not many would have realised how bad it was for the horses.

 

[Rowreach]

And I totally agree. But there is risk in everything. Everything is a risk but the question is, is it proportional and what is the probability of it happening? These horses have been exercised like this for years. How many times has an event like this happened? You don't change processes based on once in a blue moon events. Was it awful yes of course it was but some people need to be realistic too!

But a major part of risk management is learning from events and keeping up with changed circumstances. Complacency based on "but we've always done it like this" doesn't wash.

 

[criso]

I'm sure there are some heated discussions going on about the risk of exercising army horses in Central London now.

Was it exercising or a rehearsal, I've heard both from sources who wouldn't know the difference.

The question is do we use horses in ceremonial events either routine ones like trooping the colour or exceptional ones like weddings/funerals/coronations which is a reasonably thing to ask.

If we do then the first time the horse sees the environment can't be the event so you are back to them working in London to acclimatise.

A while ago, it was either the Queen's funeral or King's coronation, I asked the question in one of the threads on here of whether horses had a place or role in a modern army and there wasn't much support for that viewpoint.

 

[teapot]

Was it exercising or a rehearsal, I've heard both from sources who wouldn't know the difference.

The question is do we use horses in ceremonial events either routine ones like trooping the colour or exceptional ones like weddings/funerals/coronations which is a reasonably thing to ask.

If we do then the first time the horse sees the environment can't be the event so you are back to them working in London to acclimatise.

A while ago, it was either the Queen's funeral or King's coronation, I asked the question in one of the threads on here of whether horses had a place or role in a modern army and there wasn't much support for that viewpoint.

Their own Lt Col confirmed it was exercise through quieter London streets. Would have involved greater numbers and wearing non-every day uniform had it been a formal rehearsal.

Worth remembering though those horses are on duty seven days a week albeit on a rota before a summer break elsewhere. They’re not just pulled out for Trooping the Colour, these are the same horses that stand on Whitehall for an hour at a time next to tourists and four lanes of traffic.

There are also some at Windsor where the initial riding course is done. Let’s face it Windsor can be one massive traffic jam at times but at least they can go straight into the park.

 

[Ditchjumper2]

But a major part of risk management is learning from events and keeping up with changed circumstances. Complacency based on "but we've always done it like this" doesn't wash.

I agree. There will be learnings from this, and will Joe Public every know exactly what happened? If improvements can be made, then of course, they should be. I am just saying that I disagree with the "this incident happened so lets stop horses in London" carte blanche attitude displayed by some

Problem is there will always be scope for human error.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Well I've read plenty of comments saying otherwise. They don't give a toss, until someone tells them they should. Cheap meat benefits the general public so its never going to change. But the way horses are kept doesn't. And now lots of people are thinking about how dangerous they are, and how it could have been their car/bike/bus hit by a horse.

Then let's hope it makes a few of the idiots who drive like lunatics past horses think twice.

 

[myheartinahoofbeat]

Then let's hope it makes a few of the idiots who drive like lunatics past horses think twice.

Let’s hope so.
A friend said she noticed a difference in the car drivers when she hacked the day after.
Wouldn't it be great if BHS or Highways or someone could use this horrific event to raise general public awareness to the dangers of horses on roads ?
At least then something good would come out of it.

 

[ycbm]

Let’s hope so.
A friend said she noticed a difference in the car drivers when she hacked the day after.
Wouldn't it be great if BHS or Highways or someone could use this horrific event to raise general public awareness to the dangers of horses on roads ?
At least then something good would come out of it.

Sadly I think that could be more likely to cause drivers to campaign for horses to be removed from public roads. The problem wasn't caused by drivers in any way, but drivers were definitely put in danger by the horses.
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[cauda equina]

Yes, for a brief time, while we/our horses are put in danger by drivers every day

I'd like to feel that the BHS had our backs but they seem to have other priorities

 

[ycbm]

A while ago, it was either the Queen's funeral or King's coronation, I asked the question in one of the threads on here of whether horses had a place or role in a modern army and there wasn't much support for that viewpoint.

I think it would be a great shame to lose the pomp and ceremony, which probably contributes a great deal to the tourism industry. Would other countries pay as much for the tv rights to a coronation procession with only the coaches having a few horses? I would like to see the cost benefit analysis for the Kings Troup's circus show with the gun carriages. I'm very conflicted, but when I think of how the horses have to be kept in order for the mass events to happen, and the enormous expense entailed in keeping them, including paying soldiers to polish tack until their face reflects in it, then I think their time might soon be passed.
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[criso]

I think it would be a great shame to lose the pomp and ceremony, which probably contributes a great deal to the tourism industry. Would other countries pay as much for the tv rights to a coronation procession with only the coaches having a few horses? I would like to see the cost benefit analysis for the Kings Troup's circus show with the gun carriages. I'm very conflicted, but when I think of how the horses have to be kept in order for the mass events to happen, and the enormous expense entailed in keeping them, including paying soldiers to polish tack until their face reflects in it, then I think their time might soon be passed.
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I hate watching the Kings Troop, display I know it's all practised and very skilled but I can only think what could happen if with those heavy gun carriages if there was a miscalculation.

 

[ycbm]

I hate watching the Kings Troop, display I know it's all practised and very skilled but I can only think what could happen if with those heavy gun carriages if there was a miscalculation.

There was one some years back wasnt there? ETA 2008 one horse broke a leg in an accident during a rehearsal. I think that would cause a much bigger reaction if it was to happen in 2024.

Look what I found trying to Google it - a one off accident this week? No, at least the third time in 4 years (article refers to a previous incident with a motor cycle).

Injured King’s Troop horses and riders recovering after incident in London - Horse & Hound

Six injured people were taken to hospital

www.horseandhound.co.uk

 

[I'm Dun]

A basic risk mitigation would be to keep them elsewhere, with turnout and more exercise, and train them to be used to the environment. They manage just fine with police horses. I just cant see how living inside, stacked up like shoe boxes with no turnout and very limited exercise, ridden by potentially novice riders, didn't contribute hugely to this. Of all the horses I've owned, I'm almost certain most would have skittered about and pulled up, one would have absolutely sodded off, but with care for himself because he's a wily old git and once he deemed it ok, he'd have stopped, rider or not, and one would have panicked, ran and pulled up quickly once he was out of "danger", again rider on board or not. They all would have come back to the other horses and not took off and ran for miles. I think its the same for almost all the normal leisure horses I know. The only ones I can think of that would have gone in a blind bolt like that are ones that arent happy physically or mentally, and it would be a trigger stacking event.

 

[Skib]

I think the King's troop is a bit different. They are artillery. Each gun is pulled by six horses in pairs side by side, with a rider on the left hand horse of each pair pulling the gun, plus an outrider to the left. I have a RFA website with some pics https://sites.google.com/site/4thsouthmidlandbrigade/

As for noise, the horses were travelled by steam train and then on a boat to Belgium

 

[criso]

A basic risk mitigation would be to keep them elsewhere, with turnout and more exercise, and train them to be used to the environment. They manage just fine with police horses. I just cant see how living inside, stacked up like shoe boxes with no turnout and very limited exercise, ridden by potentially novice riders, didn't contribute hugely to this. Of all the horses I've owned, I'm almost certain most would have skittered about and pulled up, one would have absolutely sodded off, but with care for himself because he's a wily old git and once he deemed it ok, he'd have stopped, rider or not, and one would have panicked, ran and pulled up quickly once he was out of "danger", again rider on board or not. They all would have come back to the other horses and not took off and ran for miles. I think its the same for almost all the normal leisure horses I know. The only ones I can think of that would have gone in a blind bolt like that are ones that arent happy physically or mentally, and it would be a trigger stacking event.

I don't think keeping them elsewhere and boxing in 20 or 30 horses each day to get them used to London which could be a couple of hours each way with London traffic would be practical. Arguably Woolwich is quite far out, 13 miles to Hyde Park so further out than where I liveried in North London, but YCBM posted an accident there.

Livery yards and riding schools even on the far edges of London have very limited or no turnout. I had to go quite far out to Herts from North London to get daily turnout though actually the riding routes aren't much safer than when I was further in, just different hazards.

terms of logistics, Great Northern sent a taxi for me the other day when the line was blocked and it takes about 50 minutes in a car from the yard to get to north London on a Sunday so would be a lot longer in a horse box at busy times/days to get to Central London if I wanted to box a horse in.

Met police horses are kept in stables in London and there are riding stables near Hyde Park and they get no turnout. At least one of the police horse stables in London are double decker and no windows so you can't say police manage differently.

A lot of the horses used by the army do seem sharp compared to the riding school horses that exercise in the same area, I wonder if being in that big a group can wind each other up too and make things worse but if that is how they are going to be in a ceremonial event then smaller groups won't achieve that.

As for whether leisure horses gallop if their riders fall off, there lots of cases where they have and there are often posts asking for help where the rider has come off and horses are lost sometimes for several days with drones searching for them. I had one a while back that got spooked coming in from the the field about 50m from his stable. Galloped past his stable, round various tracks and was heading up the drive to the road where luckily someone was coming and headed him back. Laid back cob type. My stressy tb is the one that's OK as he gets about 10m meters and says ooh grass.

Usually they don't run off and actually the army horses don't usually as falls are not that uncommon but sometimes they do in both cases.

You come back to whether horses have a role in a modern army and whether it is fair to use them in ceremonial events which are very demanding and horses have to be put in stressful situations to get used to them even more stressful situations of a big event..

 

[Rowreach]

I hate watching the Kings Troop, display I know it's all practised and very skilled but I can only think what could happen if with those heavy gun carriages if there was a miscalculation.

At Windsor one year (90s?) a trooper fell off during the display and was seriously injured. They basically scraped him off the floor, carted him away, and the show went on… I felt quite sick

 

[conniegirl]

I had one that i fell off at a show. He galloped 2.5miles before he was caught.
Thankfully it was at somerford park so he was safe whilst doing so but he was not for stopping

 

[Surbie]

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[Cortez]

If the riders hadn't fallen off the horses wouldn't have run and wouldn't have got injured. Any horse would have spooked at the noise of a rubble shoot, you can't blame them for that, and no amount of taking-the-edge-off galloping about would have stopped that from happening*. Army cavalry troop riders are generally not very good riders at all, their training is brief, limited and dreadfully old fashioned. You only have to watch any ceremonial occasion to see all the head tossing and jogging crookedly to see how ineffective they are.

*I have had similar reactions to the sudden sliding off of the snow from the roof of my indoor in Colorado (didn't fall off though, and order was quickly restored).

 

[ester]

At Windsor one year (90s?) a trooper fell off during the display and was seriously injured. They basically scraped him off the floor, carted him away, and the show went on… I felt quite sick

one got run over at the royal welsh circa 2003/4 it was nasty to watch. I'd only seen them at olympia before and they get a totally different speed going in a large main arena setting.

 

[SilverLinings]

Lead two? One rider three horses on a London road? Surely the most basic risk assessment tells them that's a bad idea?
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I love your practical optimism @ycbm. I'm sure there will be some internal conversations about what happened, but the Army still has a very old fashioned view of H&S and risk assessments (summed up by a phrase involving words I'm sure I'd be banned for typing). The pervading opinion in the Army is that you join knowing that you might die in combat, so fussing around over every day risks is just wet/pointless/woke/a waste of time. This obviously doesn't apply to everyone, but the stiff upper lip and keep bu&&ering on approach is still strong.

I expect they will primarily be concerned about the horses, the optics, and hopefully the fact that a member of the public was injured, but I think it unlikely that anything fundamental will change as a result of this incident. As other posters have mentioned, if they want to continue using horses in London and prioritise safety then improving the riding ability of the soldiers would be a good start. It shouldn't be seen as acceptable that some horses are known as buckers or bolters, but as the Army is fairly hot on vet care* it looks like the poor riding they are subjected to means the horses are being poorly trained, and neither horse or rider are able to cope in unexpected situations.

*therefore making the assumption that the on-site vets would pick up behavioural problems caused by ulcers, pain, etc.