Anyone want a thread for the Olympic dressage live?

splashgirl45

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he is an exciting prospect for GB.... i dont understand how a judge can give bella roses piaffe a 10 if it isnt absolutely correct, i know it looks better than the horses who are overbent or not still in the mouth but its still not perfect
 

Parrotperson

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if charlotte hadnt had such low marks for that change gio would have scored very similar to bella rose which is amazing considering how young he is.....he reminds me a bit of valegro and i hope he will match him eventually, if that is possible
Yes agreed he is a mini Valegro. Very Very similar in his way of going and happiness to work.

Is it possible Charlotte has found another horse that swallowed the dressage manual!
 

shortstuff99

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I think this is where modern dressage is diverging from classical dressage. These horses will never be asked too do levade.
This is true, but the FEI definition of the move still includes 'sitting' behind. In my mind Werth should have scored max 8 for the piaffe. A 10 if she had, had any sit.
 

Wishfilly

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I assume that doing passage on the spot makes the transition in and out of passage easier. With separate marks for the transition it seems like good tactics, particularly if the judges don’t mind it.
The judges more than don't mind it if they are giving it 9s and 10s.

If they are happy to give it 10s, then perhaps the rules on what piaffe is meant to be should be rewritten for modern dresage?
 

Parrotperson

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This is true, but the FEI definition of the move still includes 'sitting' behind. In my mind Werth should have scored max 8 for the piaffe. A 10 if she had, had any sit.
fair enough I think. But the rhythm she had in it was so so good. Mind you she is 17 so she knows the job. What a good mare though.
 

splashgirl45

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agree SS, it looks much nicer than the overbent ones but still not correct. i thought bella rose lacked any sparkle today, but her test was nice to watch and seemed more harmonious than usual.. maybe the heat got to her..
 

palo1

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Ok, so, qualified teams in order are:

Germany, Great Britain, Denmark, USA, Netherlands, Sweden, Portugal and Spain.

And qualified individuals are:

Charlotte Fry, Therese Nilshagen, Cathrine Dufour, Edward Gal, Jessica von Bredow-Werndal, Sabine Schut-Kery, Carina Cassoe Kruth, Adrienne Lyle, Dorothee Schnieder, Juliette Ramel, Isabelle Werth, Charlotte Du Jardin, Stephen Peters, Hans Peter Minderhoud, Carl Hester, Nanna Skodborg Merrald, Beatriz Ferrer-Salat and Rodrigo Torres.

Interesting only one of the "best of the rest" came from today, and three came from the same group!
Thank you for this - v helpful shortcut to know what's what! :)
 

DabDab

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This is true, but the FEI definition of the move still includes 'sitting' behind. In my mind Werth should have scored max 8 for the piaffe. A 10 if she had, had any sit.
Does it? If you look at scoring directives in terms of the things to knock marks off for, the lack of sit wasn't in there last time I looked. I'll try to find it
 

splashgirl45

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so, looking at BR s scores, 5 of the judges awarded her 10 s in the piaffe marks at the end. i think dressage needs to clarify what constitutes a perfect piaffe if those piaffes were considered perfect. too highly marked IMO. and not right. the transitions may have deserved 10 but not the piaffe
 

DabDab

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This is a snippet from a big document that I have on my phone from 2018, but it says FEI guidelines:

Screenshot_2021-07-25-14-26-02-14.jpg
 

shortstuff99

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There are these guidelines too.
The Piaffe According to the FEI in 2020
In the course of the past decades the international rule-book presented an increasingly detailed description of the visual appearance of the piaffe. 
In the dressage rule-book of the FEI for the year 2020 the piaffe is most recently defined as the following:
  1. Piaffe is a highly collected, cadenced, elevated diagonal movement giving the impression of remaining in place. The horse's back is supple and elastic. The hindquarters are lowered; the haunches with active hocks are well engaged, giving great freedom, lightness and mobility to the shoulders and forehand. Each diagonal pair of legs is raised and returned to the ground alternately, with spring and an even cadence.
  2. In principle, the height of the toe of the raised forefoot should be level with the middle of the cannon bone of the other supporting foreleg. The toe of the raised hind foot should reach just above the fetlock joint of the other supporting hind leg.
  3. The neck should be raised and gracefully arched, with the poll as the highest point. The horse should remain „on the bit“ with a supple poll, maintaining soft contact. The body of the horse should move in a supple, cadenced and harmonious movement.
  4. Piaffe must always be animated by a lively impulsion and characterised by perfect balance. While giving the impression of remaining in place, there may be a visible inclination to advance, this being displayed by the horse's eager acceptance to move forward as soon as it is asked.
  5. Moving even slightly backwards, irregular or jerky steps with the hind or front leg, no clear diagonal steps, crossing either the fore or hind legs, or swinging either the forehand or the hindquarters from one side to the other, getting wide behind or in front, moving too much forward or double-beat rhythm are all serious faults.
The aim of piaffe is to demonstrate the highest degree of collection while giving the impression of remaining in place.
 

milliepops

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the fei guidelines for judging do list lowering of the haunches (ie. sitting) as one of the " essentials of piaffe"
others being
cadence/regularity
elasticity/spring
collection
balance
remaining in place
number of steps
elastic contact/self carriage

i think Bella Rose satisfies the others....

lowering of the haunches is mentioned in the write-ups for marks 8, 9 and 10 under the "collection" paragraph. perhaps the judges felt the other stuff was of such high quality? who knows.
 

DabDab

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so, looking at BR s scores, 5 of the judges awarded her 10 s in the piaffe marks at the end. i think dressage needs to clarify what constitutes a perfect piaffe if those piaffes were considered perfect. too highly marked IMO. and not right. the transitions may have deserved 10 but not the piaffe
Yep, it definitely doesn't feel right, and this debate starts up literally every time IW comes out with those trot on the spots at a big championship. Just ignoring the disquiet about that particular movement I don't think is the best strategy from the FEI.
 

splashgirl45

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MP, if judges mark with 10 in mind and deduct for each part of the piaffe which isnt correct and lowering of the hindquarters is part of being correct, then surely BR should have had .5 deducted because its part of the correct movement.. the same as if someone lowers the quarters but steps are too quick (which gios first piaffe was i think) . i have written for top judges and am very interested in learning as much as i can as i find it fascinating, i seem to have agreed with most of your comments on this thread and know you are competing at a good level so your thoughts would be interesting
 

Wishfilly

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Joke suggestion- make Levade an allowable move in the freestyle, would be a major crowd pleaser and encourage people to do passage properly?

Serious suggestion- if they want passage-on-the-spot to be worth 10, then rewrite the judging guidelines? As far as I can tell, the only thing she didn't have is the lowering of the hindquarters, so if reference to that were removed? Obviously it would not be a traditional piaffe, though.
 

Wishfilly

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thank the dressage gods. I liked John's input on the GP today with the facts and figures and live scores, but Lucinda was just unbearable!!
She annoyed me so many times, but the implication she made at one point that people who don't jump don't get injured was absolutely terrible, I though. Also her criticisms of the Mexican horse felt very unfair.
 

milliepops

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She annoyed me so many times, but the implication she made at one point that people who don't jump don't get injured was absolutely terrible, I though. Also her criticisms of the Mexican horse felt very unfair.
yeah, it was drivel at times :oops: i thought John Kyle had some very useful snippets to impart, I had a little lightbulb moment when he pointed out that the left canter piri comes off a turn and the right off a straight line, for instance... so obvious when you look at it like that.
in fairness she probably knows herself that she's not a dressage specialist but the itchy bed type stuff was pointless filler IMO.
 

Wishfilly

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yeah, it was drivel at times :oops: i thought John Kyle had some very useful snippets to impart, I had a little lightbulb moment when he pointed out that the left canter piri comes off a turn and the right off a straight line, for instance... so obvious when you look at it like that.
in fairness she probably knows herself that she's not a dressage specialist but the itchy bed type stuff was pointless filler IMO.
I actually found a lot of what John was saying more useful, and she talked over him at times.
 

splashgirl45

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i really hope there is the option to turn off commentary in the music, it spoils it for me, its not so bad in the other tests . for anyone who has horse and country a retired judge called cara whitham was commentating at hartpury this month and she was so easy to listen to and didnt witter on about nothing, she pointed out various things and said what sort of mark would be given and also what needed to be deducted in the event of a mistake. she was brilliant and made the classes so much more interesting...
 

splashgirl45

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Joke suggestion- make Levade an allowable move in the freestyle, would be a major crowd pleaser and encourage people to do passage properly?

Serious suggestion- if they want passage-on-the-spot to be worth 10, then rewrite the judging guidelines? As far as I can tell, the only thing she didn't have is the lowering of the hindquarters, so if reference to that were removed? Obviously it would not be a traditional piaffe, though.
why change it for the benefit of one or 2 riders, it seems everyone else is trying to do it according to the current rules, its very confusing to me...
 
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