Anyone want a thread for the Olympic dressage live?

criso

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If you have Eurosport then probably yes, although it is owned by Discovery so more or less the same thing. Otherwise, you will be limited to whatever the BBC shows, which I imagine will be very little of the dressage, but maybe a bit of the XC/ SJ.

Not on Eurosport, they are only showing about an hour of xc highlights on Eurosport 2.

They didn't have the same commentators today as the Discovery stream so even if it's owned by them, looks like they are operating separately up to a point.
 

palo1

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So many lovely tests. Completely unqualified to opine but I still felt that some riders looked quite ‘hard’ riders, eg the last German rider. I assume she was working hard to get the best out of her horse, but it didn’t have the apparent elegance and ease of some of the other riders, like Charlotte.

She had a tough ride today I think - she has looked so much less like it has been hard through the rest of the week and tbh I think it was a bit fortunate for Charlotte that her horse was tiring. That horse has looked really good in the other tests! :)
 

wispagold

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I was in the car when Carl did his test so I had 5 Live on the radio. Victoria Pendleton and someone else were commenting. It was fairly entertaining but I hadn't got a clue what was going on! When I watched the test later in the day they really hadn't relayed what was going on at all!

However, they did say that word from the GB camp was that if any of the GB riders finished in the top 12 it would be considered a good day. So they really have exceeded all expectations.
 

Micky

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Agree with bernster.uncomfirtable viewings of dorothe schneider riding ..horse tired or not, it wasn’t good riding on her part, lots of hard hands, bad seat..shows how much more subtle Charlotte was with aids..
 

HashRouge

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I was in the car when Carl did his test so I had 5 Live on the radio. Victoria Pendleton and someone else were commenting. It was fairly entertaining but I hadn't got a clue what was going on! When I watched the test later in the day they really hadn't relayed what was going on at all!

However, they did say that word from the GB camp was that if any of the GB riders finished in the top 12 it would be considered a good day. So they really have exceeded all expectations.
Haha oh god, I'd have enjoyed listening to that I think!

I did have a laugh listening to the BBC news on Radio 1 - we were informed that Charlotte won her medal in the "horse dressage" as opposed to, you know, the camel dressage!
 

CanteringCarrot

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Just watched Fogoso's test on Facebook. Lovely!


A friend said to me, "Why are they not ok with Iberians and how they move, but loved/were ok with Totilas?"

?‍♀️
 

CanteringCarrot

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Why do people think they're "not OK" with iberians? Fogoso scored more highly than *loads* of WBs ? the scores he received were good, I think we are in danger of getting desensitised with the potential for 90%s and forget that a score in the 70s at this level is brilliant

Sure, Iberians are 100% on a level playing field with Warmbloods. Um, no.

Obviously he scored higher than loads of warmbloods so I guess there is no problem here? However, the comment was made about Iberians in general. Friend also had known, seen, and heard a local bias so that possibly shaped the comment too.

However, if you really think there is absolutely no bias against Iberians/no preference preference warmbloods, then fine.

I think that 90 and above is a massive score. I can see your point about how we could become desensitized, but that's sort of a distraction from the original point. Also, no one is saying that a score in the 70's at this level isn't brilliant ?‍♀️ I didn't say that.

We can agree to disagree since there are quite a few things I know we don't see eye to eye on, and that's fine.
 

splashgirl45

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i dont really like the iberian type, we are all different and thats ok... if you look at fogosos score sheet he got good marks all the way through, where he missed out were on things like the extensions as some of the others were mega, i dont include the extravagent front with lack of engagement of the hinds, Gio got some similar marks to fogoso in the extensions as he is not yet there with them.. however i thought his piaffes were undermarked in comparison to others and when i looked at his sheet i was expecting at least 8.5 or 9, so IMO the rest of his test was marked fairly but he was undermarked for piaffe. although i dont normally like his type, i really enjoyed his test, so maybe i am being converted...:)
 

CanteringCarrot

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i dont really like the iberian type, we are all different and thats ok... if you look at fogosos score sheet he got good marks all the way through, where he missed out were on things like the extensions as some of the others were mega, i dont include the extravagent front with lack of engagement of the hinds, Gio got some similar marks to fogoso in the extensions as he is not yet there with them.. however i thought his piaffes were undermarked in comparison to others and when i looked at his sheet i was expecting at least 8.5 or 9, so IMO the rest of his test was marked fairly but he was undermarked for piaffe. although i dont normally like his type, i really enjoyed his test, so maybe i am being converted...:)

It's actually funny, to me, because I never liked Iberians. Never imagined owning one. Nope. Then I rode one, just one (exercised horse while owner away at uni), and was hooked ?

Edit: just for discussion, do you think Fogoso is capable of more extension? His extension could've been "mega" for him. I suppose it doesn't matter, but I just don't know where this comes into play. Some horses have different extensions because they are different horses (in their movement, build, and breeding).
 
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milliepops

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Sure, Iberians are 100% on a level playing field with Warmbloods. Um, no.
that's not what I was saying and i think you know that?
I'm not team WB, my first proper WB is only just one year old... I've ridden an iberian horse in competition too, and I now ride possibly the most baroque kinda horse I'm likely ever to have :oops::p

Yet I'm 100% at peace with a horse's bestest ever extension that it can produce STILL being scored lower than another horse's "75% of capability" extension, simply because the other horse had a more natural talent for the move as described in the rules. they have to be ranked somehow and the only remotely objective way is to compare them as they present, not taking into account physical limitions.

My horse's best ever extension will never ever get more than a 7 at FEI levels, not ever, even if she grew wings in her feathers, she might be trotting for her 10 but she is just not good enough at it *in comparison* because of the way she's made. tbf I think Forgoso's 7.5 for his trot extensions was a mark to be pleased with, En Vogue "only" averaged about 7.5.

this is my understanding of how the judging is applied, i would love if a judge said , you know what, your horse is 14 hands square so no wonder it can't do a gigantic extension, extra marks for being the underdog but that's not the sport I'm doing.
Likewise I'd love Fogoso to get extra points for looking so happy but you know, same problem.

If we're looking at the freestyle scores i do think Fogoso's piaffe score was possibly affected by the odd turn towards the end of the pi/pa stuff which seemed disjointed. Only speculation as the final marks don't show the detail for each score given, only the average for all the piaffes scored (if you watch the disco+ coverage its at about 37.15 mins, it looks like it was supposed to be a piaffe piri but it was shown as more like a passage half circle, the judging guidelines are clear on this movement, and a piaffe piri that escapes to the outside , too big etc should score below 5 :eek: expensive!) . his walk score was not brilliant and the degree of difficulty was lower than the top placed combinations, being around 9 compared to the high 9s and 10s of the medalists, they judges also didn't score the music that highly.

I honestly don't think there is a bias against iberian horses, i think iberian horses aren't always showing what modern dressage scores most highly, which is different.
 
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CanteringCarrot

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that's not what I was saying and i think you know that?
I'm not team WB, my first proper WB is only just one year old... I've ridden an iberian horse in competition too, and I now ride possibly the most baroque kinda horse I'm likely ever to have :oops::p

Yet I'm 100% at peace with a horse's bestest ever extension that it can produce STILL being scored lower than another horse's "75% of capability" extension, simply because the other horse had a more natural talent for the move as described in the rules. they have to be ranked somehow and the only remotely objective way is to compare them as they present, not taking into account physical limitions.

My horse's best ever extension will never ever get more than a 7 at FEI levels, not ever, even if she grew wings in her feathers, she might be trotting for her 10 but she is just not good enough at it *in comparison* because of the way she's made. tbf I think Forgoso's 7.5 for his trot extensions was a mark to be pleased with, En Vogue "only" averaged about 7.5.

this is my understanding of how the judging is applied, i would love if a judge said , you know what, your horse is 14 hands square so no wonder it can't do a gigantic extension, extra marks for being the underdog but that's not the sport I'm doing.
Likewise I'd love Fogoso to get extra points for looking so happy but you know, same problem.

If we're looking at the freestyle scores i do think Fogoso's piaffe score was possibly affected by the odd turn towards the end of the pi/pa stuff which seemed disjointed. Only speculation as the final marks don't show the detail for each score given, only the average for all the piaffes scored (if you watch the disco+ coverage its at about 37.15 mins, it looks like it was supposed to be a piaffe piri but it was shown as more like a passage half circle, the judging guidelines are clear on this movement, and a piaffe piri that escapes to the outside , too big etc should score below 5 :eek: expensive!) . his walk score was not brilliant and the degree of difficulty was lower than the top placed combinations, being around 9 compared to the high 9s and 10s of the medalists, they judges also didn't score the music that highly.

I honestly don't think there is a bias against iberian horses, i think iberian horses aren't always showing what modern dressage scores most highly, which is different.

Um, yes, I am not saying that anyone should get points for being the underdog or being happy...come on, I'm not that dumb :D

If you think there is no bias then that's fine. If they aren't always showing what modern dressage scores most highly, then they are for the most part, not highly competetive then. So then, the sport is more tailored to Warmbloods and the Warmblood style horses, I would think. Maybe I'm wrong.

I just, maybe mistakingly, feel as though if you're not on a Warmblood, you're not as competative sometimes. I know Iberians are out there scoring in the 70's and WB's lower than that, but that's not my point. The tip top of the sport is usually WB's. I suppose they are the best horse for the job when it comes to "modern dressage" which is interesting if we think of the origins of the Iberian vs the Warmblood.

For me, I don't really care, I just show up and ride to the best of my abilities. Dressage really isn't my "passion" or "my sport" I've come quite far with my horse in just 3 or so years, but eh. I compete against myself.


But as an example, say I am on my modest mover Iberian vs the other rider on the huge floaty (with natural suspension) warmblood.
We both ride spot on tests. Will the Warmblood (should the WB) naturally win because he has more capability and range in his gaits?

If so, it makes one feel as though they've got to have a WB or a WB type Iberian. Which some say is getting the breeding of the Iberians too far from what they are supposed to be.

Maybe I am totally off base with my thinking here. Wouldn't be the first time. :D
 

j1ffy

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UBut as an example, say I am on my modest mover Iberian vs the other rider on the huge floaty (with natural suspension) warmblood.
We both ride spot on tests. Will the Warmblood (should the WB) naturally win because he has more capability and range in his gaits?

Yes, the warmblood will win for that very reason. While dressage in its most 'pure' form shouldn't care, the FEI rules take into account that range / elasticity in the gaits. If a horse can gain a two-hoof overtrack in extended walk or trot, it will score better marks than a horse that has a one-hoof overtrack (some Iberians would struggle even with that).

As MP says though, Iberians can and do beat a lot of warmbloods even if they're not yet winning medals. I've beaten plenty of warmbloods on my PREs, and MP has probably beaten plenty on her '14 hands square'. The struggle is harder at the lower levels and having a warmblood over the past year, I have easily scored 70%+ at Novice because he's looser, more rhythmical and easier to get a consistent contact with than an Iberian. However he's not as talented for lateral work, not as sharp off the leg and will never be able to collect like an Iberian.

I've already accepted that my 4yo PRE won't score well at lower levels - he's too Spanish in his brain and the tests won't keep him busy enough. A steady warmblood will score higher, a flashy warmblood far far higher. But hopefully his talent will come out once we're at Medium and hopefully we go beyond that (he already throws in tempi changes ?).

But ultimately, whatever horse you're on the focus is on highlighting strengths and doing what you can with weaknesses. I think judging of Iberians has improved hugely over the last decade and will continue to do so.

To be more controversial though...they'd probably score higher and get away with their weaknesses with a top German rider or Carl / Charlotte on board ;)
 

milliepops

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Um, yes, I am not saying that anyone should get points for being the underdog or being happy...come on, I'm not that dumb :D

If you think there is no bias then that's fine. If they aren't always showing what modern dressage scores most highly, then they are for the most part, not highly competetive then. So then, the sport is more tailored to Warmbloods and the Warmblood style horses, I would think. Maybe I'm wrong.

I just, maybe mistakingly, feel as though if you're not on a Warmblood, you're not as competative sometimes. I know Iberians are out there scoring in the 70's and WB's lower than that, but that's not my point. The tip top of the sport is usually WB's. I suppose they are the best horse for the job when it comes to "modern dressage" which is interesting if we think of the origins of the Iberian vs the Warmblood.

For me, I don't really care, I just show up and ride to the best of my abilities. Dressage really isn't my "passion" or "my sport" I've come quite far with my horse in just 3 or so years, but eh. I compete against myself.


But as an example, say I am on my modest mover Iberian vs the other rider on the huge floaty (with natural suspension) warmblood.
We both ride spot on tests. Will the Warmblood (should the WB) naturally win because he has more capability and range in his gaits?

If so, it makes one feel as though they've got to have a WB or a WB type Iberian. Which some say is getting the breeding of the Iberians too far from what they are supposed to be.

Maybe I am totally off base with my thinking here. Wouldn't be the first time. :D
it's not just about being on a warmblood though. it's about being on a super scopey, massively talented, highly trainable and supple etc warmblood. there are tight stuffy WBs with a bad attitude and stiff bodies that don't score highly. it's just that the good ones have pushed out what is a 10 for an extended trot beyond what the stuffier horses can achieve. If that hadn't happened, we'd have to have movements scored 1-15 or something to let the less talented still score a 10 for their less scopey extension, and still be able to recognise the additional achievement produced by the exceptionally moving horse.

I do think the *good* WB is the tool for the top of the sport now because of their ability to deliver the superlative but that's no different to other sports, you wouldn't take a fell pony out horseracing cos even though you'd get from start to finish the TBs would lap you. or ride a mountain bike in a road race.

in answer to your question i think that the WB WILL naturally win because of the capability and range. otherwise there is no point in assessing movements that involve any element of "paces". at FEI there is no separate mark for paces any more. the paces mark comes within the score for the movements. so yes, the quality of the paces now explicitly counts in the technical scores.
 

CanteringCarrot

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Yes, the warmblood will win for that very reason. While dressage in its most 'pure' form shouldn't care, the FEI rules take into account that range / elasticity in the gaits. If a horse can gain a two-hoof overtrack in extended walk or trot, it will score better marks than a horse that has a one-hoof overtrack (some Iberians would struggle even with that).

As MP says though, Iberians can and do beat a lot of warmbloods even if they're not yet winning medals. I've beaten plenty of warmbloods on my PREs, and MP has probably beaten plenty on her '14 hands square'. The struggle is harder at the lower levels and having a warmblood over the past year, I have easily scored 70%+ at Novice because he's looser, more rhythmical and easier to get a consistent contact with than an Iberian. However he's not as talented for lateral work, not as sharp off the leg and will never be able to collect like an Iberian.

I've already accepted that my 4yo PRE won't score well at lower levels - he's too Spanish in his brain and the tests won't keep him busy enough. A steady warmblood will score higher, a flashy warmblood far far higher. But hopefully his talent will come out once we're at Medium and hopefully we go beyond that (he already throws in tempi changes ?).

But ultimately, whatever horse you're on the focus is on highlighting strengths and doing what you can with weaknesses. I think judging of Iberians has improved hugely over the last decade and will continue to do so.

To be more controversial though...they'd probably score higher and get away with their weaknesses with a top German rider or Carl / Charlotte on board ;)

Great post, thanks.


"He's too Spanish in his brain" ? I know exactly what this means.
 

CanteringCarrot

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it's not just about being on a warmblood though. it's about being on a super scopey, massively talented, highly trainable and supple etc warmblood. there are tight stuffy WBs with a bad attitude and stiff bodies that don't score highly. it's just that the good ones have pushed out what is a 10 for an extended trot beyond what the stuffier horses can achieve. If that hadn't happened, we'd have to have movements scored 1-15 or something to let the less talented still score a 10 for their less scopey extension, and still be able to recognise the additional achievement produced by the exceptionally moving horse.

I do think the *good* WB is the tool for the top of the sport now because of their ability to deliver the superlative but that's no different to other sports, you wouldn't take a fell pony out horseracing cos even though you'd get from start to finish the TBs would lap you. or ride a mountain bike in a road race.

in answer to your question i think that the WB WILL naturally win because of the capability and range. otherwise there is no point in assessing movements that involve any element of "paces". at FEI there is no separate mark for paces any more. the paces mark comes within the score for the movements. so yes, the quality of the paces now explicitly counts in the technical scores.

Those comparisons are actually... a bit insulting.

I also thought it was a given that it had to be a talented, supple, scopey WB. Of course I'm not going to compare to a "stuffy" one. I'm talking about two quality horses of 2 different breeds, side by side, pulling off the same accurate test. Not comparing a great Iberian to a stuffy WB. I should've specified?

I appreciate you explaining this to me, as if I am clueless, because the explanation is detailed. I think I am not explaining myself well enough for this discussion. Although, I think no matter what it won't be enough ?
 

j1ffy

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I know it's tricky when writing to get a point across, but CC I think you may be misinterpeting MP a little! I don't think that post was condescending, she was putting a point across clearly and I think if you were having a chat over a glass of wine you'd both be a lot closer in opinion than you think ?

All three of us have non-typical dressage horses / ponies and I think we're all proud of it. You are both working yours at a far higher level than I am and I'm sure we all want to support each other and learn as we go.
 
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