Are young horses now doing too much?

[Iloveeverycat]

Obviously there have always been differences in the way people do things , some people have always started horses very young , and others have always left them longer to mature

15 or so years ago when I got my first horse , I remember four years olds that were for sale had just learnt the basics and were advertised as green, etc

at the moment I’m seeing so many four years old that have been out competing jumping 1m+, regularly competing, cross country and everything . I know the odd jump probably won’t do them any harm , but I’m seeing 1m courses and proper cross country fences (I.e. not small farm ride ones). I’m not an expert , but I always thought they didn’t finish developing properly until they’re around 5, so surely this must be doing damage ?

I’m not talking about the odd advert here , it’s actually the majority of the ones I’ve seen

I even saw an advert that said ‘failed vetting as the vet said he needs longer to mature’, I can’t remember the exact details but there was an issue the vet said was directly related to the horse just needing more time to grow. I often see things like ‘old head on young shoulders/ mature for age / sensible’ which are good attributes , but they don’t change the way the horse’s body develops

The point of this post isn’t to criticise people that do this , the people producing these young horses will know a lot more than I do , so I’ll happily listen to anything anyone has to say about very young horses doing this kind of work not doing them any harm.

my main question is , would you buy a four year old that’s done a lot of the work I’ve described above ? I’ve seen some very good horses for sale , but for some reason a four year old who’s advert description resembles that of a 13 year old school master who’s been there and done it is off putting , but I’m very happy to be educated here

 

[Red-1]

I go by how the horse feels.

I bought a 4yo last year, he was just backed and had visited one show but not competed.

This year, with him as a 5yo, we have done hacking, lessons, 4 camps, a couple of local shows and dressages and a few fun outings: barrel racing (mostly at trot LOL) cow working, stunt riding etc.

We have tended to only do half a lesson as he finds it hard work.

This is what I have done with 5y olds, many small outings, ready to start actual competing as a 6yo. However, if I had one that finds it easy, I would have done more.

 

[SEL]

My 4yo has pottered around doing little bits this summer. Hard ground meant we spent a lot of time learning how to hack solo and get used to traffic, cyclists etc. He's popped a couple of small fences when the ground softened up and last weekend was introduced to trotting poles (very exciting...). He's 5 next May so I'll step it up a bit next year.

I think if people are preparing them to sell as a 4yo then they're trying to show what they can do. Mine had popped a few jumps as a newly broken 3 (rising 4) yo for his sale video but I wouldn't say he'd "jumped" per se. I do see more blood horses seeming to do more on videos but again I'm not sure if the seller is just showing them off for the camera or really working them.

 

[MissTyc]

My friend's 4 year old has only just been backed this month. He's done 4 weeks basic training, walk, trot, canter, jump, now turned away for the winter. Most of the horses at the backing yard were 3yo being started, but often with early birthdays so quite close to 4 now anyway; they were show jumping lines and will need to do young horse classes next year. They were worth a lot more than my friend's horse!

My own 4yo has done nothing lol.

That said, I did young horse classes with 4yo in the 90s, so I don't think much has changed; rather there are more leisure horses now and also we have social media to talk about it.

 

[ycbm]

I think the ones being advertised at 4 have largely been produced for sale, and that people who have a 4 year old they intend to keep are taking things more slowly.

There used to be a reasonable market for green, or even unbacked, 4 year olds, but the price difference is now so great between that and a horse that can be shown doing "stuff" that more are being brought on first, maybe?
.

 

[LEC]

Depends on the individual horse? I had a 4yo who was phenomenal from day 1 and everything was easy. Her sister was useless as so physically immature so did nothing until end of 5yo year.


I personally won’t buy 4yo anymore unless unbroken though as I don’t think many people produce them properly. I might buy one from ireland but wouldn’t in UK.

 

[Peglo]

When I bought my 5 yr old I asked if she had done any jumping. I was told no and when I thought about it I thought that was actually quite a good thing. I only started popping a few jumps this year as that’s just how things panned out. She’s 7 now. When I got her home she knew the basics in the school but don’t think she’d done much which is also good as she hasn’t done hours and hours of circles. She had excellent manners and feel she had been started really well.

I’ve seen a couple of adverts on FB which made me a bit uncomfortable. One was a cob jumping as a 3 yr old and the other was also a 3 yr old who ‘held his head nicely’ whilst being hauled in the mouth to pin his head behind the vertical. It just didn’t sit right with me. But I’m also not an expert. Both ponies looked in a good condition.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Back in the 70's/early 80's our RC used to hold various jumping competitions. I remember at one Wing Newcomers I was helping on the collecting ring and got chatting to one of the competitors. This was late May, she was on a nice grey Irish mare, 4 yrs old and had already competed and been placed in several such classes. What were the chances of that staying sound? I felt very sorry for a very nice mare.

 

[ycbm]

I drag hunted once and a regular hunter was out on a 3 year old and stayed all day and jumped. I thought being out at all was wrong and what he did was outright abuse. There was another member of the field who told him exactly what she thought in a very loud voice.
.

 

[meleeka]

I think like with most things, people have different ideas about when is too much. I do think if I was buying a 4 year old now, I’d want it to have a little bit of life experience. I don’t necessarily even mean backed, but taken off the yard at least. I’ve known a couple of 4 year olds who were backed and going nicely in the school, but both had varying meltdowns when the owners tried to hack out or go to a very small event. One in particular was literally taken out of the field, shut in a stable while being backed and then sold. He was quite big and the owner really struggled to settle him into a normal environment.

 

[Caol Ila]

My four year old does nothing. Well, she goes on walks, long-reins, lunges, and rolls her eyes at me while I wave an umbrella in her face.

 

[honetpot]

I think the ones being advertised at 4 have largely been produced for sale, and that people who have a 4 year old they intend to keep are taking things more slowly.

There used to be a reasonable market for green, or even unbacked, 4 year olds, but the price difference is now so great between that and a horse that can be shown doing "stuff" that more are being brought on first, maybe?
.

This sums it up. I buy in youngsters as a long term project, they are kept cheaply like cattle, and then sold backed at four, or the last wasn't. I probably make money, if you do not include labour costs, on all of them but would make much more if I started them at three and did more with them, but it's my hobby, and as long as the money turns over, their sale pays for hay and bits on the yard, it's a low input system, so hay is my main cost.
TBH I would rather sell at four to someone who has the knowledge and puts the works in, for less, than someone who pays more and wants to buy ready made, and then takes it away and cocks it up. If making money on the sale is the end product, then the only thing you can do is add value with production.
Selling from a smart yard also increases the price, I have sold two through friends, they go there just for viewings and I have put £2k on the asking price, and they sell no problem.

 

[SpotsandBays]

I have a 4yo that I’ve had since he was 8 months.
My plan was always to back lightly at 3 and then bring on when he was 4, and get him out and about a little bit. (I was thinking out to a sponsored ride, maybe an intro dressage or two and a couple of other non competitive outings just showing him the world).
Well I got on him at the end of last year a handful of times just getting him used to the idea of me being sat on him, and turned away as planned. Brought him back a little in spring but then thought I’d wait until the autumn again as he’s just not quite there physically yet. Then he fractured his skull in the field so has just been a pretty field ornament for months ?
I’d watch other people out doing stuff with their 4yos, feeling abit bleh that mine wasn’t doing the same. But realistically, he’s still not there physically - and that’s ok. He’s a warmblood that’s pushing 16.3. I’m in no rush. I want this horse for life!

edited to add that I forgot to actually write the point of my ramble ?
I think it does depend largely on the type of the animal, and as above - whether they are being trained for sale or to be kept. For keeps I think people do tend to take it slower. But from a sales point of view, it’s more appealing to buyers usually when the horse has experienced (rightly or wrongly at that age/horse dependant) more of the world.

 

[Cortez]

Depends on the horse and its maturity, and on the ability and judgement of the trainer. I dislike blanket rules on what horses should or should not be doing at particular ages. Obviously a 4 year old is a young, immature horse and should be in work appropriate to ability. Oh, and one metre is not very high, every horse should be able to hop over that.

 

[MidChristmasCrisis]

Honestly yes I do think some four year olds are doing too much too soon …and it seems to be in the showjumping world but everyone has their own benchmark for these things and i am older so maybe I’m out of touch….

 

[Wizpop]

It always puts me off when I see adverts for 4 sometimes 3 year olds, that have been out jumping, schooling, competing etc. Maybe I’m old fashioned but I was always led to believe that the growth plates did not finally close until a horse is 8 years old? I think that is in the back which is the last place for the plates to close, which is obviously affected by the weight of any rider.
So, mentally a horse might seem mature but physically it’s body simply isn’t. All breeds mature at the same rate.
So, to answer OPs question, I would be looking very carefully at the level of work and sort of training a 4 year old has had if it had already been under saddle for some time.

 

[Iloveeverycat]

I think the ones being advertised at 4 have largely been produced for sale, and that people who have a 4 year old they intend to keep are taking things more slowly.

There used to be a reasonable market for green, or even unbacked, 4 year olds, but the price difference is now so great between that and a horse that can be shown doing "stuff" that more are being brought on first, maybe?
.

Yeah that’s the impression I got from the adverts. I’m just thinking is a four year old that’s done all that something I should be avoiding , as a many sellers producing a horse for sale probably won’t be worried about lameness issues in the future

 

[greenbean10]

Talking about mainly showjumping - I think lots of horses do too much too soon, but producers need to get their 4 year olds out jumping to sell them.

If I was in the market for a showjumping 4 year old I would expect it to have been out to some shows and if not then I wouldn't be paying as much.

90cm will be fairly easy for a 4 year old that's been bred to jump.

A 4 year old spending the year doing a few shows and lots of hacking followed by a winter break doesn't bother me too much.

I do think horses do too much too soon, but I think a lot of show jumpers break down because of how much they are jumped over a long period of time. My (showjumping bred) horse is still jumping at 21...and while she was in the ring at 4, she did very little jumping between the ages of 8-14.

What I dislike is having to scroll down for 15 minutes to get to the bottom of a 10 year olds record!

 

[ihatework]

I think it’s far more nuanced and very difficult to convey.

Are some horses overdone early - hell yes! Sometimes through ignorance, sometimes through commercial pressure.

Does that mean that a 4yo shouldn’t school or jump? Hell no! But you have to assess what you have in front of you and educate proportionately and appropriately.

Just because they aren’t fully mature and growth plates aren’t all closed, doesn’t mean they can’t work. Horses need to move, they need to develop and they need to strengthen. I strongly believe that appropriate work is beneficial.

So it’s a really complex mix of the horses conformation, temperament, natural ability, rider skill that determines what is or isn’t suitable for them.

For example, a well bred SJ that is well developed, has a good brain, and is ridden by a good rider could easily pop round 1m without having been overtrained. Indeed fannying around at 70cm would likely be detrimental to their jump long term. Done judiciously this is not wrong. Done frequently with a view to winging round 4yo classes then probably falls into the ignorance or commercial pressures above.

Take the crossbred 4yo that’s come out of a dealer to a DIY amateur with ambitions of RC/grassroots - well that horses probably isn’t going to be of the quality and have the management/skill to be doing much more than hacking about and a bit of dressage/small fences. Again that’s ok and appropriate.

 

[maya2008]

My old SJ pony was backed at 3.5yo, hacked for six months then went in the school. It all came so easily to her, she could jump 1m with very little preparation. She went to a few shows at 4yo for experience, xc once - and to look at her you would have thought she’d done a ton of preparation work. That wasn’t the case, she was really so talented she only needed one practice show to get the hang of going round a course.

So not all sports bred youngsters that have pics of shows, xc etc will have been hammered.

 

[oldie48]

The four year old that has been having a holiday here was backed earlier this year, has been in the school and can walk trot and canter in a nice rhythm and balance. She's popped a few poles and jumps and went out to a local competition venue to do a prelim test, she's been out on the lorry and been in an indoor school. She's hacking out in company and on her own. She's a happy girl and seems to enjoy her work. The work she's doing is well within her capability and the focus is as much about allowing her to see the world as it is about training her body. Seems fine to me.

 

[claracanter]

If they are thoroughbred NH horses, they can be running in hurdle races at 4. Flat racehorses run from 2 years old. I always wondered how this squares with the rest of the horse world when they take things much slower. Young event horse classes are very big now and they have a world championships for 6 year olds. I guess if someone buys an OTT thoroughbred at 3, then they are most likely going crack on because they know it’s already been out and about.

 

[Widgeon]

15 or so years ago when I got my first horse , I remember four years olds that were for sale had just learnt the basics and were advertised as green, etc

at the moment I’m seeing so many four years old that have been out competing jumping 1m+, regularly competing, cross country and everything .

I wonder whether this is part of the wider problem of lack of hacking? There is a dealer not too far from us who often has very nice looking youngsters (4 /5 ish) in that he tends to advertise as being safe and sensible hacks alone and in company, with the scope to do (whatever he thinks they'll be good at) but green in the school. I'd be much more interested in that then something that could go in an outline and jump a course, but can't cope with the big wide world. He is in a relatively quiet part of the world though so I'd imagine it's much easier for him to put the hacking miles on his horses.

I'm not saying that's the whole problem but it was just a thought that occurred to me.

 

[lme]

When I was looking at 4yos I filtered out anything that had done age classes because I was looking for a horse to keep long term. She’s 5 now and has still done not a lot as she’s big, weak, still growing and somewhat accident prone.

 

[Rowreach]

It's one thing seeing the evidence that a young horse has been out and about at competitions, hunting, xc schooling or whatever, but the ones to be really wary of are those that have been loose jumped to the point where they are already knackered as 3 year olds (which happens far too often over here).

 

[Boughtabay]

I did find it incredibly hard to find an unbacked/recently backed youngster over 3 when I was searching at the tail end of 2021. I assumed it was more because I was searching towards the end of the mad COVID buying spree and all the types I was interested in had been snapped up over the summer. I did eventually find a nice unbacked 4yo locally and have backed and brought him on very slowly over the past year. He’ll be 6 in the spring and is maturing slowly - he’d probably have looked like a right odd weed if someone had started working him at 3! But he’s not the type to be ready young, he won’t stop growing for a while I’d imagine

 

[Leandy]

It all depends exactly how much it has done, with who and what you do with it next and how mature it is as an individual. Many professionals are capable of starting a young horse and getting it to an apparently much more advanced level of performance with considerably more tact and less work than many amateur riders. They do this to show the horse off well to maximise the sale price. The horse will not be established at that level but will appear great in the sales videos etc and may well have a handful of successful competition results to boot. You wouldn't buy that horse and aim to continue the intensity of work for the short, medium term. You might well buy it as a great competition prospect and then turn it away for a few months to mature. Some people will turn their young horse away for a couple of months or more to mature several times in its early years. They won't keep it consistently in work. On the other hand you will also see horses started a little later by less able riders who keep the horse in work consistently but never achieve more than an 80cm jumping round or a prelim dressage test but flog the animal around an arena for months and years on end to their physical detriment because they are not taught to carry themselves correctly or thoughtfullyl worked and leading to more wear and tear. I honestly think what matters most is not how a horse is started per se, but that it is brought on judiciously for the next couple of years and more whilst it matures.

 

[Orangehorse]

If you read the Pony Club Backing and Training Ponies and Horses, which is the classic, traditional advice, a horse would be backed at 3 and do a bit, then brought back into work in the spring of its 4 year old year, continue with the work already done and add schooling, some jumping, a couple of shows and a few days with hounds and then maybe a short day's hunting and then left again until it was 5. But as a 4 year old it wouldn't be expected to do a great deal, although it has always been fairly common to see 4 year olds show jumping and showing.

Of course, every horse is an individual and some simply wouldn't be physically mature enough for that amount of work.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I would far rather have a 4yo racehorse that ran as a 2/3/4yo than a show jumping 4yo that is out competing. Racehorses mostly go in straight lines and aren't forced into outlines to look pretty. I see a lot of these show jumping horses out doing loose schooling futurities as 1/2/3yo with a top line that suggests they have been worked in side reins or the likes and will have spent hours going round in circles or in a school.

 

[ihatework]

I would far rather have a 4yo racehorse that ran as a 2/3/4yo than a show jumping 4yo that is out competing. Racehorses mostly go in straight lines and aren't forced into outlines to look pretty. I see a lot of these show jumping horses out doing loose schooling futurities as 1/2/3yo with a top line that suggests they have been worked in side reins or the likes and will have spent hours going round in circles or in a school.

See, I would say that whilst some are certainly overdone - lots aren’t. Their genetics just make them come out looking like they have been extensively schooled. If you are from a NH TB background then it’s understandable you would jump to conclusions.

I imagine you get frustrated at pre conceived ideas of the production of racehorses. Whereas the reality is there is good and bad. Same goes for sport horses. A well produced 4yo sj I’d take over a badly produced racer, and vice versa. But in reality anyone looking for a SJ isn’t going to have a TB at the top of their list, and a TB person is isn’t going to entertain a sj stamp. So direct comparison isn’t really valid - different horses for different jobs