Are young horses now doing too much?

[Sleipnir]

Jumping 1.40m courses in competition? I don't even think that would be allowed. Are you sure they have not put her over a few bigger fences for a sales video? I don't know anyone who would buy a 4yo that's being regularly jumped around 1.40m.

No, they are jumping 140cm courses at home. Up to 125 in competition.

 

[LEC]

No, they are jumping 140cm courses at home. Up to 125 in competition.

4yos jump 90-1.10m in YH classes. 5yo jump 1.10 - 1.20 and 6yo jump up to 1.30. Obviously world YH champs is slightly different kettle of fish but that’s for the worlds best and if you look at 6/7yo winners they are world class horses who win medals.

 

[teapot]

Also on this conversation, if you look at the decent 4yo sjers they will jump maybe two BN for experience and an outing and then head to Bolesworth where they don’t jump against the clock and or Stoneleigh for the same. So maybe 4 outings.
IMO it’s not the professionals who are the issues with 4yo….. it’s the amateurs because 90cm is a tiny height so think age classes are expected when actually they were always introduced to produce the future superstars on minimal production.
I don’t know any of the serious eventers who do much with their 4yo. If you look at someone like Laura Colletts. They are doing a little bit at the moment while the decent horses are on holiday but this is late in the year. They won’t have been competed eventing. That won’t happen until a 5yo.
I have had a look at 20 years of BYEH results from the champs and the 4yo mostly disappear after winning. It’s not a good indicator for future success. The 5yo is much better.
On 2/3yo racehorses, I do believe the prevalence of KS in racehorses is down to how they work and lack of top line. I would be interested in whether a trainer like Henrietta Knight and Nicky Henderson whose horses always look amazing have less issues. Jo Davis is another who seems to make a real effort developing topline but appreciate this is NH and the horses are older.

I've got a syndicate share in a Nicky Henderson horse - he's only 5, was slightly off after some routine work, so has gone back to his owner post vet checks etc sound for a winter of fittening and strengthening, before heading back to racehorse life. He's working better under saddle (I get weekly updates) than some horses I've seen out at lowest levels of BD...

 

[RachelFerd]

I've got a syndicate share in a Nicky Henderson horse - he's only 5, was slightly off after some routine work, so has gone back to his owner post vet checks etc sound for a winter of fittening and strengthening, before heading back to racehorse life. He's working better under saddle (I get weekly updates) than some horses I've seen out at lowest levels of BD...

And you don't see any of Aiden O Brien's working badly at home - sure, there's a reliance on a few gadgets to do the job, but nothing is allowed to work upside down.

 

[lannerch]

I recently read an article by a vet who said if you want to produce your young horse for example as a eventer or race horse you have to start younger than if you just want a hack general all rounder.

Like a child starting gymnastics you have to train the muscles and joints to be flexible and slowly strengthen and develop whilst still developing to take the work, and like a gymnastic athlete if you start that training too late it doesn’t happen.

 

[maya2008]

I recently read an article by a vet who said if you want to produce your young horse for example as a eventer or race horse you have to start younger than if you just want a hack general all rounder.

Like a child starting gymnastics you have to train the muscles and joints to be flexible and slowly strengthen and develop whilst still developing to take the work, and like a gymnastic athlete if you start that training too late it doesn’t happen.

I would agree - learning a new sport as an adult is SO hard! Even if you stop for years, something you learned as a child is easy.

 

[sbloom]

I've not read the thread, apologies, but my learning, over the last few years, is that we are training too much on one surface, yes tackling too much too soon but equally we have a fundamental issue with so much of our training. Our breeding has become obsessed with range of movement, expression, yet our training is still focused on bringing this aspect out, instead of stabilising our horses. It's even true of native breeds, they are gradually becoming more sporty, at least in some lines...and this move across the board seems to be at the bottom of the epidemic of lameness we seem to be seeing, injections becoming the only way to maintain a sport horse over the years.

I do think there is better understanding out there/coming that helps us train in a way that gives better stability, but it's a long way from being mainstream.

 

[Sleipnir]

4yos jump 90-1.10m in YH classes. 5yo jump 1.10 - 1.20 and 6yo jump up to 1.30. Obviously world YH champs is slightly different kettle of fish but that’s for the worlds best and if you look at 6/7yo winners they are world class horses who win medals.

This is probably true in the UK, where these standards are much more regulated. Alas, I am not from the UK and some unaffiliated competition organisers couldn't care less about the age of horses entered.

 

[Ratface]

People getting on horses that are, in my opinion, too young for it, is an absolute bugbear of mine.
My old boy was out showing in hand as a three year old. Backed at six and turned away for a year. Had a long, busy and successful career as a showjumper and was retired sound at eighteen. Still sound and onward bound.
Though I was sad to see a heavy male trainer posting of their prowess in starting a three year old Arabian and cantering round in small circles.
However, I am quite aware that I am out of step with a great number of other equestrians, so I will not comment further.

 

[sakura]

Like a child starting gymnastics you have to train the muscles and joints to be flexible and slowly strengthen and develop whilst still developing to take the work, and like a gymnastic athlete if you start that training too late it doesn’t happen.

And yet time and time again, adults who trained hard as a child in figure skating are forced to retire through injury in their early 20s. 25+ is considered an old athlete in both gymnastics and figure skating.

I'm currently battling arthritis in my 16 year old mare who was extensively hunted at 3. I'll never know for sure if she wouldn't have developed it anyway, but I have an idea.

Imo, yes. We ask far too much of horses too soon. But I also have no interest in competing at high levels.

 

[sbloom]

And yet time and time again, adults who trained hard as a child in figure skating are forced to retire through injury in their early 20s. 25+ is considered an old athlete in both gymnastics and figure skating.

I'm currently battling arthritis in my 16 year old mare who was extensively hunted at 3. I'll never know for sure if she wouldn't have developed it anyway, but I have an idea.

Imo, yes. We ask far too much of horses too soon. But I also have no interest in competing at high levels.

Yes, I can't agree with conditioning young horses to the, effectively, extreme sports we do with them. Conditioned to carry weight from 3, very carefully, no problem, but if we're having to start anything other than 100% biomechanically correct movement, deliberately, before the growth plates are fused, in order to have a successful competition horse, then we've got things very wrong. And I think we have.

 

[Cortez]

Yes, I can't agree with conditioning young horses to the, effectively, extreme sports we do with them. Conditioned to carry weight from 3, very carefully, no problem, but if we're having to start anything other than 100% biomechanically correct movement, deliberately, before the growth plates are fused, in order to have a successful competition horse, then we've got things very wrong. And I think we have.

And yet there have been studies (proper scientific ones) which indicate that working young horses judiciously is better for long term bone, tendon and ligament strength than not doing so.

 

[sbloom]

And yet there have been studies (proper scientific ones) which indicate that working young horses judiciously is better for long term bone, tendon and ligament strength than not doing so.

Hence my comment about conditioning them to carry weight, not the same as working them in the way that very young future human gymnasts are (which in itself is super controversial as the children have little agency in this).

 

[Cortez]

Hence my comment about conditioning them to carry weight, not the same as working them in the way that very young future human gymnasts are (which in itself is super controversial as the children have little agency in this).

I think everyone will agree that over working very young horses is not the way to go (racing, we're looking at you). Conditioning to carry weight is only one part of early horse training, perhaps the most important thing to do is train the correct muscles and the correct shape of the horse, particularly in the back and hindquarter, and balance under the rider. Slowly building up these, and also bone and tendons, are what keeps horses progressing with fitness and hopefully contributes to long term soundness. Leaving horses in fields (or much worse, sitting in stables) doing eff all won't do anything towards training, fitness or longevity for riding.

 

[sbloom]

I think everyone will agree that over working very young horses is not the way to go (racing, we're looking at you). Conditioning to carry weight is only one part of early horse training, perhaps the most important thing to do is train the correct muscles and the correct shape of the horse, particularly in the back and hindquarter, and balance under the rider. Slowly building up these, and also bone and tendons, are what keeps horses progressing with fitness and hopefully contributes to long term soundness. Leaving horses in fields (or much worse, sitting in stables) doing eff all won't do anything towards training, fitness or longevity for riding.

I personally think that the only truly healthy way to train a horse is as an overall athlete whose main focus is being able to carry us with as little compromise to its body from doing so. That is what I mean by training to carry weight, it's a short hand. Training for a specialist sport before, say, 6-7, I think will eventually be found to be less than optimal, if we go the way I hope we go. I have never said leave the horse in a field, and never do with my customers, there's nearly always good work to be done to help the horse.

Bob Wood or Danny Emerson have posted on this but darned if I can find a post.

 

[tristar]

i`ve a7 yr old, and would say he is just now starting to fit into his own body where work is concerned, he is a different horse to just 12 months ago and is still growing a bit.

our vet thinks 7 is young, so do i, i want to think about what they will be able to do when they are 15 to 22 or so and have the physical and mental coinciding with the training and peaking at the same time

i much prefer to let the young horse move under me in a natural way and let him show his own movements and patterns, then there is something to work with as an individual

 

[Cortez]

i`ve a7 yr old, and would say he is just now starting to fit into his own body where work is concerned, he is a different horse to just 12 months ago and is still growing a bit.

our vet thinks 7 is young, so do i, i want to think about what they will be able to do when they are 15 to 22 or so and have the physical and mental coinciding with the training and peaking at the same time

i much prefer to let the young horse move under me in a natural way and let him show his own movements and patterns, then there is something to work with as an individual

A horse moving in a "natural way" is not best served to carry a rider.

 

[stangs]

And yet there have been studies (proper scientific ones) which indicate that working young horses judiciously is better for long term bone, tendon and ligament strength than not doing so.

This is true, but most of these studies (at least, what I've been able to find) focus on the legs. Conditioning the legs young is good - arguably, racing's right to be training them at 2 - but, if you're conditioning the horse under the saddle, that's also a massive impact on the spine, which develops much slower than the legs. So I struggle to believe that conditioning the young horse under the saddle has solely positive consequences. The fact that non-ridden work is uncommon and often ineffective in the UK, and most equestrian cultures, doesn't help.

 

[TPO]

This is true, but most of these studies (at least, what I've been able to find) focus on the legs. Conditioning the legs young is good - arguably, racing's right to be training them at 2 - but, if you're conditioning the horse under the saddle, that's also a massive impact on the spine, which develops much slower than the legs. So I struggle to believe that conditioning the young horse under the saddle has solely positive consequences. The fact that non-ridden work is uncommon and often ineffective in the UK, and most equestrian cultures, doesn't help.

The studies of conditioning 2yr olds that I've read have all been about turnout on suitable pasture e.g. large and undulating vs stabled.

I haven't read anything (which doesn't mean that it doesn't exist) about any benefits of having 2yr olds in training.

 

[Cortez]

This is true, but most of these studies (at least, what I've been able to find) focus on the legs. Conditioning the legs young is good - arguably, racing's right to be training them at 2 - but, if you're conditioning the horse under the saddle, that's also a massive impact on the spine, which develops much slower than the legs. So I struggle to believe that conditioning the young horse under the saddle has solely positive consequences. The fact that non-ridden work is uncommon and often ineffective in the UK, and most equestrian cultures, doesn't help.

It's far from uncommon, in fact it's vital in all stages of training. Riding horses is undoubtedly not "good" for them, but the whole point about good training is that it mitigates the damage as far as possible with educated exercises.

 

[ihatework]

The studies of conditioning 2yr olds that I've read have all been about turnout on suitable pasture e.g. large and undulating vs stabled.

I haven't read anything (which doesn't mean that it doesn't exist) about any benefits of having 2yr olds in training.

There is some data about limb bone density in 2yo tbs in training. Some relevance, but completely excludes all the other ways racing fecks up young horses!

 

[stangs]

It's far from uncommon, in fact it's vital in all stages of training

It being vital doesn't mean it's not uncommon. The average UK youngster is unlikely to do anything more than basic long-reining to learn the rein aids and some very casual lunging. Even the dressage professionals I used to know weren't interested in in-hand schooling. Most people just want to ride and/or lack experience in non-ridden work.

 

[stangs]

The studies of conditioning 2yr olds that I've read have all been about turnout on suitable pasture e.g. large and undulating vs stabled.

I haven't read anything (which doesn't mean that it doesn't exist) about any benefits of having 2yr olds in training.

https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/11/2/463 provides a nice review of the literature
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1080744615315321
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22320408/

Last year or so, a study made the rounds saying training needed to start before the kneecaps fused for the animal's longevity, however I cannot find it for the life of me.

 

[Cortez]

It being vital doesn't mean it's not uncommon. The average UK youngster is unlikely to do anything more than basic long-reining to learn the rein aids and some very casual lunging. Even the dressage professionals I used to know weren't interested in in-hand schooling. Most people just want to ride and/or lack experience in non-ridden work.

My experience is in professional training, I can only say that in the course of my career in-hand training has been a very large part of every horse I've ever been involved with.

 

[Caol Ila]

But it’s not common. I’d love to take my long reining to the next level, like teaching lateral work, but there’s virtually no one around who can teach that to horses or owners.

 

[Bob notacob]

Interesting post. I was lucky as a kid to attach myself to a racing yard (age 13 ) and watch the best trainer I have ever seen ,at work. I never saw him break down a single horse ,over number of years on a 40 horse yard. We had the odd accident but NEVER anything to do with overwork ,and yet he was highly successful . In hindsight I see that it was all down to attention to detail and personal involvement with every horse and member of staff. I learned the difference between exercise and work. Exercise builds up a horse , work knocks it down. And always leave a horse better than before you got onto it!

 

[Caol Ila]

Racing is a tough one, though. Is a 10 year old ex-racer not dissimilar to a 30-year old ex pro football player? Anyone on a Premier League level team will have been pushed to the edges of their athleticism as a teenager. Maybe they stayed sound long enough for their career, but are they sound into middle age or does it catch up to them?

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Im sorry but I can’t see this argument that having young horse with unfused growth plates being jumped over a meter is beneficial to them. Im reaping the benefits of gymnastics at a young age. Also martial arts, my fingers are buggered and my joints are less than optimal for a woman in her 30s ? has probably contributed to my spinal issues as well as the damage in my neck has happened a while ago but has deteriorated according to the neurologist and will continue to do so.

you just don’t go out and compete, the training has to be done, so these horses are doing a lot of work at home to be going out and competing at these classes.

My 4.5 year old has just had the physio and he’s so bumhigh that the walking hill work we are doing is very uncomfortable going down hill and he’s so higgelty piggelty that the physio was laughing as not a legs matching he says. Shoulders were out of sync, pelvis is uneven and it’s all to do with his growth. His left leg is annoying his right shoulder as he’s so bumhigh, so he got some good massage, ultrasound and infrared treatment.

I’m sure he’s not an unusual case, even if I did have a perfectly fitting saddle I wouldn’t be doing much schooling or jumping with him as it wouldn’t be fair.

 

[SEL]

My experience is in professional training, I can only say that in the course of my career in-hand training has been a very large part of every horse I've ever been involved with.

You're a bit unique there. We have one or two in hand specialists around this area but hard to find when I was looking for lessons a few years back.

 

[DabDab]

There is a huge difference in perception about young horse development between those that do it a lot and those who have one horse and all voices are given the same credence on here.

Wouldn't have much of a discussion otherwise.
I've backed many many horses but for the most part I couldn't tell you where they ended up, whether they stayed sound, whether they achieved anything.... I could tell you what they were like to back, and how easy they seemed to find stuff in the first 4-6 months of their ridden career, but that doesn't necessarily correlate to, well, anything really. The only horses I've ever really known enough to comment on are my personal horses, and of my current three I backed one at 3, one at 4 and one at 5. They are all sound but they don't really compete so it's slightly irrelevant.

So although I technically have a lot of experience with young horses, I have no particular knowledge on developmental risk factors, because when you are producing for a comp rider to take the horse out a bit and then then for it to be sold, having that knowledge isn't actually a pre-requisite ?.

My opinion (for what it isn't worth) is that it's complicated. Well ridden and well trained warmbloods doing a job that they were well bred to do break down, leisure horses who've done very little break down, some racehorses get nursed through an 18 month racing 'career' only to be a walking vet bill for the next 5-10 years for the poor soul who rehomed them. The balance between the exercise that is good for a body and the exercise that damages it is a hard enough thing for humans to work out when talking about their own bodies, let alone a horse