Are young horses now doing too much?

Also on this conversation, if you look at the decent 4yo sjers they will jump maybe two BN for experience and an outing and then head to Bolesworth where they don’t jump against the clock and or Stoneleigh for the same. So maybe 4 outings.
IMO it’s not the professionals who are the issues with 4yo….. it’s the amateurs because 90cm is a tiny height so think age classes are expected when actually they were always introduced to produce the future superstars on minimal production.
I don’t know any of the serious eventers who do much with their 4yo. If you look at someone like Laura Colletts. They are doing a little bit at the moment while the decent horses are on holiday but this is late in the year. They won’t have been competed eventing. That won’t happen until a 5yo.
I have had a look at 20 years of BYEH results from the champs and the 4yo mostly disappear after winning. It’s not a good indicator for future success. The 5yo is much better.
On 2/3yo racehorses, I do believe the prevalence of KS in racehorses is down to how they work and lack of top line. I would be interested in whether a trainer like Henrietta Knight and Nicky Henderson whose horses always look amazing have less issues. Jo Davis is another who seems to make a real effort developing topline but appreciate this is NH and the horses are older.
 
Think people expect more. Just recently sold my 4 year old, he went to one show and won his class, he walk, trots canters, pops a little fence confidently and calmly and hacks alone and in company, and is 16.3hh and still has a lot of maturing to do though for most people in the videos he was too green, as he isn’t consistent inter contact, occasionally falls out though a shoulder etc. They need to look like machines and too many people don’t have a good enough eye to see a green horse learning to seek the contact but occasionally loosing connection and balance (he was a big mover) to a horse that is fixed in its neck and back but looks “pretty“. Horse wasn’t sold to amateur but a professional in the end. Hopefully will cheer him on at hoys in a couple of years!
 
Sadly many people no longer spend time working slowly with their young horses and getting them fit enough to compete at a consistent level. If you think back to the days of the long event / hunting etc youngsters where expected to do bits and pieces but where then turned away for months. How many people now have the time or facilities or inclination to bring on a young horse or get an older one properly fit? We used to walk miles for weeks getting horses fit before they were allowed to trot etc now they’re on a walker going round in circles every day or on a surface being ‘schooled’. Times change and some things are now better but we also need why changes were made and review the reasons whether they are good or less so.
 
I think the problem with these posts is there is always an element of sanctimoniousness that comes with them. As with every horse it’s about the individual. We know from the science that horses need to do more work than people think but it needs to be the right work. Ultimately everyone wants the same outcome in a sound, good citizen who has minimal issues and there are many different roads to Rome.
 
gosh thats a long word, sancti-whotsit.

its just that there are more potholes in some roads than others

thats why op asked the question, i suppose
 
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Yes. I find age classes very distasteful. They encourage people to push babies far too much too quickly.

Faran was backed beginning of the year did hacking and one half rideout then was turned away for a month. Plan was to hack all summer then spend the winter going to the odd Cavaletti/Le trec/flatwork clinic around more hacking.

That went to complete sh!t when Injured my spine then even more so when they found existing damage to two other discs in my cervical spine that the injury to my lumbar spine made worse ? so he’s had from June 8 off until now where he is being long lined in prep for me getting back on. I will spend the winter fittening both him and building up my strength as my legs are like Bambi and it’s not great.

Producing horses for sale to me isn’t a great excuse for ruining a horse young. It’s just people looking to make money off the back of an innocent creature not caring that they will be more than likely broken by early teens latest
 
The biggest problem is the prices people are willing to pay. The hours needed to produce a nice, all-round horse or pony properly would make bringing them on to sell as a business completely unviable, as no one will pay a price that reflects that.
 
Don't think you can make generalizations about any discipline. There are good and bad trainers in all of them. I lived on a pro-showjumping yard (had nothing to do with the yard - we were renting a flat on the property), and the trainer started her youngsters in draw reins. That forces an outline alright.

Do I think all SJers do that? I hope not! I'm sure they don't.
 
Caol Ila said:
Don't think you can make generalizations about any discipline. There are good and bad trainers in all of them. I lived on a pro-showjumping yard (had nothing to do with the yard - we were renting a flat on the property), and the trainer started her youngsters in draw reins. That forces an outline alright.

Do I think all SJers do that? I hope not! I'm sure they don't.
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Here's a shockingly unpopular opinion - draw reins do have their place, used correctly. Sometimes they are a helpful bit of guidance towards showing the horse the way. They aren't the only way, they aren't necessarily the right way, they can certainly be used badly... but they can also be used perfectly acceptably. For me the bigger offence would be continuing to let a horse carry the rider in a really ineffective and hollow way.
 
Would you jump in draw reins?

I have also used them to help guide a horse to the right place. She was a 10 or 11 year old horse who had been going hollow and inverted for so long and could not figure out how to move forward while putting her head down at the same time. Under a trainer's supervision, I used draw reins for one or two lessons to show her it was possible. I am not against them in all situations. But for a young horse's very first ride, eh, not sure about that. And these youngsters had them on from the very first moment they were backed. And she jumped them straightaway. In some kind of headgear like draw reins/vienna reins/chambones.

Plus, I saw other dodgy things, like the assistant trainer beating a youngster with a lunge whip because it kept turning into the lunging circle. I don't mean one crack, either. Like repeatedly hammering it across the hindquarters.
 
Caol Ila said:
Would you jump in draw reins?

I have also used them to help guide a horse to the right place. She was a 10 or 11 year old horse who had been going hollow and inverted for so long and could not figure out how to move forward while putting her head down at the same time. Under a trainer's supervision, I used draw reins for one or two lessons to show her it was possible. I am not against them in all situations. But for a young horse's very first ride, eh, not sure about that. And these youngsters had them on from the very first moment they were backed. And she jumped them straightaway. In some kind of headgear like draw reins/vienna reins/chambones.

Plus, I saw other dodgy things, like the assistant trainer beating a youngster with a lunge whip because it kept turning into the lunging circle. I don't mean one crack, either. Like repeatedly hammering it across the hindquarters.
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I don't jump in them. I also wouldn't use them at a first ride or an early ride. And that trainer set up does sound totally rubbish. I just hate that "OMG any horse under the age of 8 should never be ridden in draw reins" type hysteria that you see from some people. Usually people whose horses still haven't learnt how to carry a rider when they are an (ever)green 12yo. I'd just like to accept that there are many shades of grey when it comes to appropriate approach for young horses.
 
I jump in draw reins but it’s usually older horses who have hit a training block. I also have a paranoia about it so it’s not very big but often solves a problem in an hour rather than 4 weeks of wrestling and being heavier with the hand than I would like.
 
LEC said:
Also on this conversation, if you look at the decent 4yo sjers they will jump maybe two BN for experience and an outing and then head to Bolesworth where they don’t jump against the clock and or Stoneleigh for the same. So maybe 4 outings.
IMO it’s not the professionals who are the issues with 4yo….. it’s the amateurs because 90cm is a tiny height so think age classes are expected when actually they were always introduced to produce the future superstars on minimal production.
I don’t know any of the serious eventers who do much with their 4yo. If you look at someone like Laura Colletts. They are doing a little bit at the moment while the decent horses are on holiday but this is late in the year. They won’t have been competed eventing. That won’t happen until a 5yo.
I have had a look at 20 years of BYEH results from the champs and the 4yo mostly disappear after winning. It’s not a good indicator for future success. The 5yo is much better.
On 2/3yo racehorses, I do believe the prevalence of KS in racehorses is down to how they work and lack of top line. I would be interested in whether a trainer like Henrietta Knight and Nicky Henderson whose horses always look amazing have less issues. Jo Davis is another who seems to make a real effort developing topline but appreciate this is NH and the horses are older.
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That's interesting about the 5 year old Young Eventers. I watched a whole class at one 3 day event, and I thought that they horses in those classes had done a lot of hard work over the couple of days they were there. So they must have been training quite hard to get there.
 
I have 2 youngsters currently.

They are very different people.

Robin is hugely intelligent and needs to have his mind occupied otherwise he finds ways to entertain himself. At rising 3 he has worn tack and full harness. He long reins and understands the concept of lunging (literally a couple of circles on each rein in the field once or twice) as things click very easily with him. He's seen all traffic and walked out on in hand hacks all over our local area. He travels well and has been shown successfully in different environment's (indoors, outdoors, speaker systems, busy shows, quiet shows, etc etc) and he's loved every second of it. I'll sit on him in the new year (with my brave pants on) and he'll hack next year both in hand and under saddle. Plus some more showing. You could easily do to much with him and ruin him physically as he is so switched on mentally. Its a fine line.

Reggie however, is a totally different cookie. He hasn't done a lot at all. He is going to be a lot bigger than Robin so ideally I'd like to get going with him ASAP but it's just not going to happen. He walks nicely and has just about worked out how to trot nicely next to me. He'll pick up feet etc etc, and ground manners are there, but anything else would overwhelm the little simple boy. He's happy to walk out with Robin but gets tired really quickly. He'll be left until a lot later to do anything with him as he's just not mentally ready for life in general yet.

Every horse is different.
 
Orangehorse said:
That's interesting about the 5 year old Young Eventers. I watched a whole class at one 3 day event, and I thought that they horses in those classes had done a lot of hard work over the couple of days they were there. So they must have been training quite hard to get there.
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The 5yos run round 1*. So 1.05. It’s also end of the season. Just looked up the winner.
They did 2x90 and 9x 100 over a 6 month period which isn’t a huge amount. Plus with a pro rider.
2nd place did 8 x 100 and a novice.
3rd place did 3 x 90 and 6 x 100.
You should not be taking a horse who finds it hard work. It’s not designed for those horses. The above all have very good records….
 
Having looked up the purpose and judging of these age classes, any horse that was tired or struggling in them simply should not have been entered. These classes are for assessing future potential as a top class eventer. All of the really classy horses will skip round a metre, we've had ponies that would do that without breaking sweat and the dressage test is pretty basic really and the judges aren't looking for lots of collection or judging paces, they are looking for well balanced trainable athletic horses.
 
oldie48 said:
Having looked up the purpose and judging of these age classes, any horse that was tired or struggling in them simply should not have been entered. These classes are for assessing future potential as a top class eventer. All of the really classy horses will skip round a metre, we've had ponies that would do that without breaking sweat and the dressage test is pretty basic really and the judges aren't looking for lots of collection or judging paces, they are looking for well balanced trainable athletic horses.
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Also, asking a purpose bred jumping horse towards the end of its 5yo year to jump round courses of LESS than 1m is bonkers and develops a poorer jump, not a better one. People suggesting that these horses should be jumping 80-90cm when they're approaching 6yo old are totally misunderstanding the physiology and biomechanics of these animals. Reduce the frequency and/or complexity if you like, but don't reduce the height.
 
LEC said:
The 5yos run round 1*. So 1.05. It’s also end of the season. Just looked up the winner.
They did 2x90 and 9x 100 over a 6 month period which isn’t a huge amount. Plus with a pro rider.
2nd place did 8 x 100 and a novice.
3rd place did 3 x 90 and 6 x 100.
You should not be taking a horse who finds it hard work. It’s not designed for those horses. The above all have very good records….
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That's interesting, I would have thought that was quite a lot for a 5yo as I work that out to mean that the horse would be out eventing pretty much every other week over 6 months?
 
Squeak said:
That's interesting, I would have thought that was quite a lot for a 5yo as I work that out to mean that the horse would be out eventing pretty much every other week over 6 months?
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I’m on the fence.
Personally I wouldn’t want a 5yo running quite that frequently. My really switched on 5yo certainly didn’t (but has had a busy 6yo season).
That said, I’m a bit precious and I don’t need to make a living from it.

But heights - 1* is nothing to the type of horse these classes are aimed at.
 
Gamebird said:
Also, asking a purpose bred jumping horse towards the end of its 5yo year to jump round courses of LESS than 1m is bonkers and develops a poorer jump, not a better one. People suggesting that these horses should be jumping 80-90cm when they're approaching 6yo old are totally misunderstanding the physiology and biomechanics of these animals. Reduce the frequency and/or complexity if you like, but don't reduce the height.
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As a wise old trainer once said to me ‘don’t train a horse how not to jump’
 
LEC said:
The 5yos run round 1*. So 1.05. It’s also end of the season. Just looked up the winner.
They did 2x90 and 9x 100 over a 6 month period which isn’t a huge amount. Plus with a pro rider.
2nd place did 8 x 100 and a novice.
3rd place did 3 x 90 and 6 x 100.
You should not be taking a horse who finds it hard work. It’s not designed for those horses. The above all have very good records….
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The class I watched was in May.
A 5 year old should be able to do a fair amount, going to shows, cross country and hunting.

What caught my eye was the statement that the 5 year old winners of the class had disappeared, whereas the 6 year olds had gone on to become successful event horses.
 
When he was 3.5, I lightly backed my youngster and then turned him away - meaning, I just sat on him and later did a few laps around the school at a walk + introduced trotting with a rider, which was less than a minute at trot.

He is now 4.5. We go on 40min walking hacks a couple of times a week and I walk/trot him in the school, mostly in straight lines, but starting to introduce some large circles and loops. I won't be cantering him under saddle until he's 5 in June, and I try to keep my sessions short and sweet. He's growing up to be a big horse, so anything more would be challenging his maturity and balance.

Meanwhile, a local 4yo mare, 17hh, is being sold for more than 50000, and she's already jumping 140cm courses... I try not to think about what will eventually become of her.
 
Sleipnir said:
When he was 3.5, I lightly backed my youngster and then turned him away - meaning, I just sat on him and later did a few laps around the school at a walk + introduced trotting with a rider, which was less than a minute at trot.

He is now 4.5. We go on 40min walking hacks a couple of times a week and I walk/trot him in the school, mostly in straight lines, but starting to introduce some large circles and loops. I won't be cantering him under saddle until he's 5 in June, and I try to keep my sessions short and sweet. He's growing up to be a big horse, so anything more would be challenging his maturity and balance.

Meanwhile, a local 4yo mare, 17hh, is being sold for more than 50000, and she's already jumping 140cm courses... I try not to think about what will eventually become of her.
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Nobody knows what will become of her, but it’s highly likely she will have a better chance of a competition career than one that does nothing. There are plenty of horses that are wrapped in cotton wool who don’t stay sound, just as there are plenty of horses that work hard that are absolutely fine. One thing is for sure, horses don’t train themselves and leaving horses doing little or nothing for years will result in the “green” 7,8,9 + year olds that are so very common.
 
Or ones who are incapable of standing up to work but it’s just delayed in finding out.

There is a huge difference in perception about young horse development between those that do it a lot and those who have one horse and all voices are given the same credence on here.
 
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Sleipnir said:
When he was 3.5, I lightly backed my youngster and then turned him away - meaning, I just sat on him and later did a few laps around the school at a walk + introduced trotting with a rider, which was less than a minute at trot.

He is now 4.5. We go on 40min walking hacks a couple of times a week and I walk/trot him in the school, mostly in straight lines, but starting to introduce some large circles and loops. I won't be cantering him under saddle until he's 5 in June, and I try to keep my sessions short and sweet. He's growing up to be a big horse, so anything more would be challenging his maturity and balance.

Meanwhile, a local 4yo mare, 17hh, is being sold for more than 50000, and she's already jumping 140cm courses... I try not to think about what will eventually become of her.
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Jumping 1.40m courses in competition? I don't even think that would be allowed. Are you sure they have not put her over a few bigger fences for a sales video? I don't know anyone who would buy a 4yo that's being regularly jumped around 1.40m.
 
LEC said:
Or ones who are incapable of standing up to work but it’s just delayed in finding out.

There is a huge difference in perception about young horse development between those that do it a lot and those who have one horse and all voices are given the same credence on here.
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And how endlessly often do you hear about horses on here, and in real life, that have been religiously, carefully only lightly worked until they are 6/7 and they STILL break..
 
I generally think people are unwilling to wait so they push these young horses way to far nowadays. A lot of western show horses are broken a 2 and they are walk trot and cantering at 2 . There is a opposite problem people who go way to slow training and these horses are green for their entire lives because it’s to late to teach them how to correctly use their body . As these horses develop bad habits and it’s difficult to get a horse to unlearn these bad habits so people don’t bother as it’s to much work. So theses horses look like 3 years old when the horse is actually 15+.it’s depends on the horse at the end of the day and how well they are coping with the work.
 
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