Ask a Parelli student....no holds barred....you asked, I giveth.

[tongue~n~cheek]

The user name 'Tongue in cheek' i may be wrong but it says to me this person is talking tongue in cheek

wiki definition:
Tongue-in-cheek is a term used to refer to humor in which a statement, or an entire fictional work, is not meant to be taken seriously, but its sarcasm is subtle.

I am here annonomously was thinking off the cuff at the time, not alot of thought put into it

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Ok... I have an actual question about Parelli (which I have never practiced). I understand that a lot of practitioners of Parelli learn the method from DVDs; apart from the potential to reach a wider audience, what are the benefits for a novice horse owner in using a DVD over having an actual instructor to help them? As a Parelli teacher, do you have concerns about those who have learned from the DVD not using the methods 'properly'? This is not meant to be inflammatory, it is a genuine question!

first, i want to say I am not a proffesional parelli instructor, I do not speak for the parelli organization, and not affiliated with them other than as a student.

nothing compares to live instruction, with a good instructor. I myself paid hoards of money, only to find out that my international dressage judge I was learning from nearly got me killed. mmy horse hated me, and only let me ride for 15min before she would have enough of his bull. so live instruction is not always what it is cracked up to be. this is true of ALL disciplines.

some people have NO access to live quality instruction, this fills that gap.

can people safely learn from dvd's. yes and many do every day.

can some people get harmed from watching dvd's. yes and many do everyday.

but I see alot worse going on every where around me. I have seen great instructors have students that just don't get it. I my self have had to explain things in a thousand ways to someone for them to get it. both in tradition disciplenes and natural. people are people. every method and discipline being successful is determined ultimately by the aptitude of the human.

as far as parelli dvd's, IMO, it has helped far more than it has harmed.

 

[skint1]

Tongue and Cheek, Are you from FiSH?

 

[rhino]

Hi t~n~c, thanks for your input in this and 'the other' thread.

As an adult 'beginner' owner I looked into many different techniques and horsemanship methods, I have attended demonstrations and have a lot of friends involved with Parelli.

Leaving 'problem horses' aside, I don't really understand a lot of the groundwork techniques with Parelli. If I want my horse to back up I will put a flat hand on his chest and say 'back'. Similarly I can turn him on the forehand or quarters or move him forwards. He will confidently lead anywhere, over anything.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't really understand the rope wiggling, 'carrot stick' waving and the games themselves. Most of the time you have to move the horse around he will be in a field, stable, tied up for grooming or tacked up for excercise. Generally not in a rope halter, with a handy carrot stick and long rope. What do you do? You move the horse around by putting a hand on it and saying over/back etc. Obviously there will be horses who find this difficult but from what I have seen the Parelli 'games' seem to confuse horses more than anything.

To progress through the levels you have to demonstrate you are doing everything the 'Parelli' way. It is not marketed as being able to pick and choose the bits you would use (I haven't found this with any of the other 'NH' trainers). It seems to be an all or nothing approach and I don't understand how this can be applied - blanket style - to all horses, when every horse has a different personality (horsenality??).

Sorry for the long rambling post but I haven't before had the opportunity to have my questions answered by someone like yourself, normally my enquiries are not welcomed by Parelli people.

 

[yaddowshad]

Parelli is a circus sold to people who have over horsed themselves and have not bothered to learn to ride a horse properly or have even the basics of good stable management.

 

[fburton]

Thanks for your most generous offer, tongue~n~cheek.

My questions are:

1) Is there really a strong tendency - as I have noticed - for Parelli students to assume that any problem behaviour that doesn't actually involve the horse running away indicates dominance? So, for example, Catwalk's evading the bridle being put on is dominant behaviour.

2) Why is that?

Thanks,
Francis

 

[fburton]

I am here annonomously was thinking off the cuff at the time, not alot of thought put into it

I would say you're doing pretty well!

 

[pippinpie]

The reason Parelli is aimed at novices is because people with more experience with horses realise that the majority of the system is bull sh*t and is NOT natural horsemanship but a business making money. It does worry me that people are throwing there money at this system and learning incorrectly. I know there is not just one system for training horses but i fail to understand what this particular system is trying to achieve!

Well thats were you are totally wrong and misinformed, I was introduced to PNH by an experience ex owner of a BHS riding school, I myself are BHS trained and have 40+ years experience, and there are many like us, PNH can't chose its students, so if you have problems with some of their attitudes you can't blame the program for them.
The bottom line is this program works, it will not work for you if you are not looking for something better in your relationship with your horses and it won't work if you dont have an open mind to think outside the box, if you are happy in your box then thats OK but please don't knock others who want more.

 

[pippinpie]

Originally Posted by Caledonia
I'd really like to know what your opinion as a horseman is on this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918

I have just seen this video and I am upset as most of you but the last comment is spot on:
This is a very old clip, and I am not condoning what's going on but I can say that Parelli Natural Horsemanship is an ever evolving program, I'm sure Pat will agree that not every thing he did in the past is/was good, we all learn from our mistakes and I'm sure Pat Parelli is no exception

 

[fburton]

The bottom line is this program works, it will not work for you if you are not looking for something better in your relationship with your horses and it won't work if you dont have an open mind to think outside the box, if you are happy in your box then thats OK but please don't knock others who want more.

Hmm, isn't Parelli Natural Horsemanship just another box to be happy inside? Indeed, the program is designed to be complete and self-contained, and - correct me if I'm wrong - students are actively discouraged from drawing on knowledge from other trainers. Of course, not all people who find Parelli useful follow that dictum; many pick and choose from a variety of sources, and that seems to work well for them too.

I guess I also find the suggestion that ditching everything to follow Parelli necessarily will lead to an improvement in the relationship with your horse a little disturbing. Doesn't that imply a superiority to everything else?

 

[PolarSkye]

OK . . . please explain this (and this is a genuine question - I'm not making a "dig" . . . I am genuinely confused):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyF2QqP29DU

I get that LP is trying to get the horse to back up (out of her personal space?), but . . . this doesn't look like a trusting relationship to me. Perhaps I'm just horribly naive, but LP's body language seems unnecessarily aggressive and I see a distinct lack of patience and kindness here . . . and why does she hit the horse in the face . . . repeatedly (with her hand)?

Kali gets a smack or a suitable reprimand if he does something particularly rude (or potentially dangerous/hurtful for the humans around him . . . he is too big to be flinging himself about with no regard for the people/children standing around him), but just one and then we move on . . . the second he gives me the behaviour I want (not using me as a scratching post, for instance, or standing still while I sort his bridle out) I praise him lavishly. I'm a strong advocate of pressure/release and rewarding good behaviour/a try . . . however, what I see in this video is pressure, pressure, pressure and very little release.

Can you shed any light?

Many thanks,

P

 

[pippinpie]

Hmm, isn't Parelli Natural Horsemanship just another box to be happy inside? Indeed, the program is designed to be complete and self-contained, and - correct me if I'm wrong - students are actively discouraged from drawing on knowledge from other trainers. Of course, not all people who find Parelli useful follow that dictum; many pick and choose from a variety of sources, and that seems to work well for them too.

I guess I also find the suggestion that ditching everything to follow Parelli necessarily will lead to an improvement in the relationship with your horse a little disturbing. Doesn't that imply a superiority to everything else?

Not sure how many of those comments are aimed at me but #1 There are many PNH students including myself who do look at all methods of working with horses, Participating in PNH does not require you to remove your brain in the process. #2 I have a life time of experiences to draw upon and I've not ditch them I have just enhanced them. For me life is a never ending learning curve, and if it suits me I don't care were I get my info from.
If anything I wrote came across as me thinking I am superior, then that was not my intention, on the contrary actually.

 

[Morgan123]

OK I've got some!! Thanks for this BTW it's great to have a good old debate about this stuff. I just want to say - i disagree with some theory of Parelli and with the extremes whihc are showcased but not necessarily with pressure/release principles and think that Parelli system COULD be used perfectly kindly (though it's often not, especially by the creators and highest-level users of the system, which is a bti of a fatal flaw), so I'm not being rude here at all and thank you for your input on all this stuff!!

OK - In reading up on Parelli i read this about the first few "games" (this was written by a parelli instructor i assume as it was an article in a magazin)

1) - friendly game. in the friendly game, you use the carrot stick to stroke the horse to give it a pleasurable feeling. when it stands still it is rewarded by you removing the stick stimulus.

I totally don't get that?! Surely if being stroked with a stick is so nice (which i can't see) then the removing it when they do the right thing is completely counter productive??!

2) "Using the friendly game, among others, the horse learns to stand still and trust the handler".

How is that the case? The horse is wearing a pressure halter (I know it's under another name, btu I've been repeatedly informed by Parelli people that you need it to do parelli as you don't get the same fine control in a normal headcollar, therefore it's basically working to create fine pressure and is therefore a pressure halter under another name), and the horse is learning that if it moves away from the carrot stick it gets pressure on its head. similarly when the friendly game is played with the rope flicking rather than the stroking stick, the horse stands becuase of the pressure on its head, not becuase it trusts its owner. maybe it learns the rope flicking is ok, but the initial thing that's happening is that it has to supress its fear, surely. otherwise you could play the games loose right form the start, if it really was trust. comments??

3) "using the moving away games (i think they're called the porcupine games among others) is typical of what mares do to teach their foals to move away from pressure."

I think that's really counter productive - cannot see how moving away is a 'game' for a horse and have certainly never seen a mare repeatedly asking ehr foal to move from left to right!!

4) Why does there have to be so much of the massively dominant movement of the hrose as in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918 - this is very typical of parelli clips,. i never want my hroses to ever move away from me that quickly - if you compare it to herd behaviour in a field, it is most reminiscent of a subservient horse running away from e.g. its human or the water trough when it sees a very dominant and agressive horse approaching. I don't want my horses to see me as very dominant and agressive, i want them to see me as someone i can trust.

comments??

5) Linda parelli in partiuclar, but all the others too, do an awful lot of jerking nastily on their horse's halters. why adn what on earth are they trying to achieve? I would completely freak out if i saw someone do that to my horse wiht a thin rope halter - their heads are so sensitive!

thank you!!

 

[pippinpie]

As T n C is in USA the time line does not allow her to answer questions as they crop up, so I hope I'm not poking my nose in here. But I will give my slant on this post:

OK I've got some!! Thanks for this BTW it's great to have a good old debate about this stuff. I just want to say - i disagree with some theory of Parelli and with the extremes whihc are showcased but not necessarily with pressure/release principles and think that Parelli system COULD be used perfectly kindly (though it's often not, especially by the creators and highest-level users of the system, which is a bti of a fatal flaw), so I'm not being rude here at all and thank you for your input on all this stuff!!

OK - In reading up on Parelli i read this about the first few "games" (this was written by a parelli instructor i assume as it was an article in a magazin)

1) - friendly game. in the friendly game, you use the carrot stick to stroke the horse to give it a pleasurable feeling. when it stands still it is rewarded by you removing the stick stimulus.

I totally don't get that?! Surely if being stroked with a stick is so nice (which i can't see) then the removing it when they do the right thing is completely counter productive??!

The CS is used like an extention of your own body/arm and the horse learns to accept it with no fear, CS are never used to hit the horse that would be counter productive, it is also used amongst other things to drive your horse like you would with you own arm/hand.
Horses are very aware of your body language and they soon learn what 'neutral' means, neutral is the release, so after you have got a try from your horse after asking him to do something it is the reward.

2) "Using the friendly game, among others, the horse learns to stand still and trust the handler".

How is that the case? The horse is wearing a pressure halter (I know it's under another name, btu I've been repeatedly informed by Parelli people that you need it to do parelli as you don't get the same fine control in a normal headcollar, therefore it's basically working to create fine pressure and is therefore a pressure halter under another name), and the horse is learning that if it moves away from the carrot stick it gets pressure on its head. similarly when the friendly game is played with the rope flicking rather than the stroking stick, the horse stands becuase of the pressure on its head, not becuase it trusts its owner. maybe it learns the rope flicking is ok, but the initial thing that's happening is that it has to supress its fear, surely. otherwise you could play the games loose right form the start, if it really was trust. comments??

The rope halter is the best bit of equipment I have ever used, it is greatly misunderstood, fitted correctly it is both gentle and effective, gentle when used in knowlegable hands and effective when more control is needed.
Horses soon learn that the that if they resist it will put as much pressure as they are resisting back on them, then when they relax they get imediate release, they become more polite and attentive. 95% of what I do with my horses is done with no pressure at all and only 5% will be with slight pressure as they have respect without fear for it.
You really need to understand the reasoning behind the prey animal instinct to understand why horses become fearful and so many times horses are punished and pushed through thressholds that we may not even have noticed, how would you like to be standing on the edge of lets say a diving board worried about jumping in and someone come up behind you and gives you a push, how would you feel? would you trust that person again?

3) "using the moving away games (i think they're called the porcupine games among others) is typical of what mares do to teach their foals to move away from pressure."

I think that's really counter productive - cannot see how moving away is a 'game' for a horse and have certainly never seen a mare repeatedly asking ehr foal to move from left to right!!

For safety and respect I horse must learn not to crowd on top of you, and the driving game is used to move the horse away from you in much the same way as horse do themselves.

4) Why does there have to be so much of the massively dominant movement of the horse as in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918 - this is very typical of parelli clips,. i never want my horses to ever move away from me that quickly - if you compare it to herd behaviour in a field, it is most reminiscent of a subservient horse running away from e.g. its human or the water trough when it sees a very dominant and aggressive horse approaching. I don't want my horses to see me as very dominant and aggressive, i want them to see me as someone i can trust.

comments??

No comment I didn't like it either!

5) Linda parelli in partiuclar, but all the others too, do an awful lot of jerking nastily on their horse's halters. why adn what on earth are they trying to achieve? I would completely freak out if i saw someone do that to my horse wiht a thin rope halter - their heads are so sensitive!

thank you!!

I too found that short clip on YouTube unsettling, but I have seen the much longer unedited version, although hard to watch even for me I understand what she was trying to do, and she did achieve it by the way, she wanted the horse which beforehand was becoming dangerous to its handler and the others that were in its near vicinity, the horse got distracted to the point were humans did not even exist, so Linda took over and tried to gain its attention and some recognition that she was even there, I could go on but as I would have done it differently I won't defend it further, also that was an old video and I'm sure that Linda would now do things better.

It can have such great rewards, even little kids can do it :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdTFLSONfHY&feature=related
What a relationship. full of love and trust.

 

[Morgan123]

The CS is used like an extention of your own body/arm and the horse learns to accept it with no fear, CS are never used to hit the horse that would be counter productive, it is also used amongst other things to drive your horse like you would with you own arm/hand.
Horses are very aware of your body language and they soon learn what 'neutral' means, neutral is the release, so after you have got a try from your horse after asking him to do something it is the reward.


The rope halter is the best bit of equipment I have ever used, it is greatly misunderstood, fitted correctly it is both gentle and effective, gentle when used in knowlegable hands and effective when more control is needed.
Horses soon learn that the that if they resist it will put as much pressure as they are resisting back on them, then when they relax they get imediate release, they become more polite and attentive. 95% of what I do with my horses is done with no pressure at all and only 5% will be with slight pressure as they have respect without fear for it.
You really need to understand the reasoning behind the prey animal instinct to understand why horses become fearful and so many times horses are punished and pushed through thressholds that we may not even have noticed, how would you like to be standing on the edge of lets say a diving board worried about jumping in and someone come up behind you and gives you a push, how would you feel? would you trust that person again?
For safety and respect I horse must learn not to crowd on top of you, and the driving game is used to move the horse away from you in much the same way as horse do themselves.

No comment I didn't like it either!
I too found that short clip on YouTube unsettling, but I have seen the much longer unedited version, although hard to watch even for me I understand what she was trying to do, and she did achieve it by the way, she wanted the horse which beforehand was becoming dangerous to its handler and the others that were in its near vicinity, the horse got distracted to the point were humans did not even exist, so Linda took over and tried to gain its attention and some recognition that she was even there, I could go on but as I would have done it differently I won't defend it further, also that was an old video and I'm sure that Linda would now do things better.

It can have such great rewards, even little kids can do it :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdTFLSONfHY&feature=related
What a relationship. full of love and trust.

OK thansk. However i totally disagree with a lot of thigns there. would you mind elaborating?

1) you missed my point - re-check what the parelli person wrote in my quote. The theory is compltely at odds wiht what it's saying - it's saying to remove a "reward" when the horse does what you want.

2) thansk - believe me i've done an awful lot of research and understand prey animal and fear behaviour, but pressure and release is actually incredibly at odds with that in some ways. I agree that using minimal pressure (as you say with the pressure halter) is great partly BECAUSE the horse is a prey animal, however the problem i'm saying here (and again please re-read what i wrote as my point was missed) - if the horse is, say, scared of the rope being flicked at it, it only ends up standing still becuase of pressure on its head (i.e. supression) not becuase of any genuine desensitisation. the desensitisation does happen, but it is secondary to the pressure, which is absolutely what you would NOT want given that this is a prey animal. my point was that the pressure halter SHOULD be completely unecessary if the exercise truly achieved what it's meant to, in this instance.

3) Of course a horse should never crowd you and must learn to respect space, but there's a complete difference between a horse respecting your space and a horse running away in a fearful and subservient manner, whihc is what i see again and again in these parelli clips!!

4) Yeh - i am sure there are great examples of parleli being used kindly by nice people, becuase if you're acting in a pleasant and kind way to your horse and not endlessly showing it you're the boss in a dominant agressive way, then you can achieve great things NO MATTER WHICH SCHOOL OF THOUGHT YOU USE. however, i think it says a lot that the people who "invented" (well, market) the system are the ones who seem to misuse it the most and are constantly under fire for abuse?! No?

Any light shed on the above appreciated. Thanks!

 

[mystiandsunny]

Could a Parelli person explain this please? http://fuglyblog.com/ today's entry - the video.

 

[Cedars]

Am i the only person who cant see the movie, only a green screen?

 

[pippinpie]

OK thansk. However i totally disagree with a lot of thigns there. would you mind elaborating?

1) you missed my point - re-check what the parelli person wrote in my quote. The theory is compltely at odds wiht what it's saying - it's saying to remove a "reward" when the horse does what you want.

Not quite sure in what tense you referring to reward, sorry. But I take it that you might mean this: eg. I ask my horse to do something: move his hind 1/4's over, so I put pressure on him in my body language (up my energy) and give him the 'aids' to move, I keep up that pressure until he responds, (if he is just learning) I would release that pressure and go into a relaxed posture (neutral) thus taking away the pressure and giving him the release/reward at the first moment that he made an effort to understand my command. when the horse understand what is being asked hopefully the next time you ask he responds more rapidly and with more effort, hence less pressure to the point were he will be so tuned in he is waiting for you to ask for something!

2) thansk - believe me i've done an awful lot of research and understand prey animal and fear behaviour, but pressure and release is actually incredibly at odds with that in some ways. I agree that using minimal pressure (as you say with the pressure halter) is great partly BECAUSE the horse is a prey animal, however the problem i'm saying here (and again please re-read what i wrote as my point was missed) - if the horse is, say, scared of the rope being flicked at it, it only ends up standing still becuase of pressure on its head (i.e. supression) not becuase of any genuine desensitisation. the desensitisation does happen, but it is secondary to the pressure, which is absolutely what you would NOT want given that this is a prey animal. my point was that the pressure halter SHOULD be completely unecessary if the exercise truly achieved what it's meant to, in this instance.!

I can only recant my own experiences, and although I now only have a few horses I only have time to practice on 3, 2 adults and a yearling. all have good manners but have improved greatly since I started PNH, I find that the biggest problem relating to Prey / predator is the trust issue, and the more I understood and read their behaviour the more I could build that trust, I haven't had to use undue pressure on mine, if they get scared it comes either in the form of stuck dumb 'what the hell is that' and freeze in which case I would wait, give him time to think it over, mostly it passes very quickly but if it turn out to be the other scared 'I'm out of here' type then I would act as soon as possible and access what to do, if I were in a safe place I would allow some drift and then let the horse face what ever he found so scary, only then can he work out for himself if it really is going to kill him.
You ask that if a horse is scared of having a rope thrown at it and pulls back, then obviously throwing the rope was to much pressure and you need to drop that pressure to something he can accept and build on that to the point were rope throwing holds no fear. as for the pressure on the head when he pulls back that will release the moment he decides to stop resisting, he decides when he gets that reward, horses are very fast learners and a normal not to mixed up abused horse will twig on very fast about pressure and how to get release, pressure can be as little as just looking him in the eyes when you have your energy up in your body. and some introverted horses find looking you in the eye very difficult just like introverted people.
I have one very easy horse who helped me so much when I was learning these 'new' techniques, he was so accepting of my accidentally bonking him on the head with the rope, but because he read MY intentions he knew I wasn't trying to harm him, bless him.!

3) Of course a horse should never crowd you and must learn to respect space, but there's a complete difference between a horse respecting your space and a horse running away in a fearful and subservient manner, whihc is what i see again and again in these parelli clips!!!

I can't comment as I don't know what you have seen.

4) Yeh - i am sure there are great examples of parleli being used kindly by nice people, becuase if you're acting in a pleasant and kind way to your horse and not endlessly showing it you're the boss in a dominant agressive way, then you can achieve great things NO MATTER WHICH SCHOOL OF THOUGHT YOU USE. however, i think it says a lot that the people who "invented" (well, market) the system are the ones who seem to misuse it the most and are constantly under fire for abuse?! No?

I can't comment on other peoples behaviour and Parelli can't choose who use/misuse their methods, all I know is it works for me and I only use methods I feel are right for me and my horses, Not everything about PNH is 100% to my liking but then I don't have to use that then.
I do hope I have covered most of you queries, this takes so long to do I get lost. : )!

Any light shed on the above appreciated. Thanks

 

[Natch]

Parelli is a circus sold to people who have over horsed themselves and have not bothered to learn to ride a horse properly or have even the basics of good stable management.

HHO is a playground where people who don't care about horses bludgeon them into submission.

Generalisations like that really don't get anyone anywhere.

 

[narkymare]

as a novice reading and trying to learn - i ve watched latest parelli and wouldnt want my horse tied up - i love him, im on montys forum and respect him much more - i do not think he would hurt a horse to prove his point - as a total novice i could not trust these parellis xxx

 

[Natch]

OK,here we go.

3)Following on
Why is the required equipment so damn expensive?

Onto equipment-
http://shop.parellinaturalhorsetraining.com/product.jsf?catId=109
that 4 piece kit costs £120.28.
...
So to recap- PP kit- £120.
Local tack shop-£20.
Now I am sure there are instructors out there with a brain who do advise you to borrow a DVD/use current common bits and bobs to start with,but all the ones I have come into contact with insist ONLY the branded equipemtn will do,and of course,it can only be bought direct(unless you stalk Ebay for someone chucking it out).
Once again,to me this smacks of money grabbing not "spreading the good word" while covering costs.

I use similar equipment, and have tried it with both kinds, so can speak for myself and my grounsdskills methods in reply to this, if its any use.

12ft rope. What can I say apart from it handles differently? Its personal preferance again - I have no doubt a lunge line and whip would work, and see no reason people starting out can't use one. My reasons for using the 12ft lines are that when I use a lunge line, which is a lot lighter, it doesn't move the same way. I was also taught to allow the horse some drift, i.e. the rope to feed through your hands, not so easy with my lunge line which has handy stops to prevent this exact same thing. Incidentally, my 12ft rope is attached like this:

http://www.naturalhorsesupply.com/attachlead.htm

to avoid any metal clip smacking the horse in the face.

ETA: My 12 and 22ft lines were the main thing I spent my student loan on that year! They didn't come from Parelli, but they weren't much cheaper than theirs. However they have lasted really well, including surviving when some idiot left it in a pool of horse pee for a week when she borrowed it.

I agree with you that its a lot of money to spend on the equipment, and people could easily suffice with cheaper versions. none of mine is parelli branded, I found it all cheaper elsewhere. Its sad to hear of parelli instructors who won't teach you unless you have the branded kit On the whole though, its generally the case that as people get into a new thing, they want to use and buy all the brand new, right equipment. Materialistic, yes, but true.

As for the cost of the DVDs, well yes it is a lot of money, but it includes a fair heft of material. my main objection to the retail of all the parelli stuff is that there are people who will buy the DVDs and the starter pack and think they are the next, well, pat parelli you really can't substitute face to face lessons with DVDs, in my opinion, not when you're working with horses.

 

[Hollycat]

I have only a few friends who are really into Parelli/natural horsemanship so I don't know if this is representative of Parelli or not. My question is - why is there no verbal communication with the horse? Maybe its just me being a chatty person but I find voice commands very useful, particularly when progressing something taught inhand to being taught under saddle under saddle - e.g teaching a youngster the command for trot on the lunge verbally can then be effectively used when asking for trot under saddle.

 

[Snickers]

The thing I don't understand about Parelli is it's purpose... I've seen it used on 'problem' horses with no effect, and people who do Parelli don't seem to be in the same league, competition wise, as the traditional trainers... So it's not really about the riding, is it about having a polite horse?

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

First of all pleas keep in mind I am only one person and am having a hard time keeping up with you. I am barely on page 3. could someone PLEASE
PM me how to get more posts on a page? Please????

I went to user CP and couldn't find it.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

OK - this is not posted at anyone in particular - just in case anyone thinks they are being accused of being snarky

If you have read the other thread, and after millions of pages it is easy to forget everthing that was posted, the OP does come accross as being a sensible individual.

I think this lady (appologies if I have this wrong) is in fact a genuine poster, that quite clearly does have a mind of her own, and has made it abundantly clear what she does and does not agree with on the other thread.

I think her intention with this thread was to answer genuine questions that people might have about Parelli/Natural Horsemanship or what ever else you want to call it.

My personal opinion (for what it is worth) is that it is some of the comments that have so far bee posted are unnessesary

I have no interest in parelli nor have I practised it and I am not aware that I am a member of any brainwashing cults but I do have manners and I think some of this thread is a bit rude to the OP

I am going out on a limb here and taking a guess that I am the OP? is that 'original poster"? thank you cronk, yes I am honest and legitimate, and honestly am opening up myself to question, even though I know many if not most hate what I stand for. I only don't want to talk about stonleigh here because I posted my opinion there and I have a family and horses that I am giving up time for to do this, so it is a limited time offer, and i will do my best to answer as many ligitemate questions that I can. if you are afraid you can pm me too. a few already have.

please no loaded questions. if it is just to get me to say something so you can attack me, please don't. I dont mind if no one agrees with me, I do not seek agreement. only to answer your questions as honestly as I can, with my opinions and understanding of natural horsemanship, particularly parelli. I cannot answer specifically on behalf of "why' pat or linda did "xyz". I can answer as to theory as I understand it. I do NOT blindly follow Pat and Linda, I do it because it works for me and those I know. I am NOT happy about stonleigh for MANY reasons. I am honestly very sad at the moment, for equus.

now to answer questions. saving videos for the end. I haven't read past page 3. cept for this.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

I have yet to read all the posts, not even close. i am trying to find where I left off and came accross something disturbing and I have a request and and honest one. I am doing this as an experiment, if it was possible, as I have argued for 10yrs, that approach is everything. I all to often, as it was done to me pre parelli, had naturalists (not exclusive to PNH) be condescending to traditionalist. IF you are going to post here as a parelli person, as a favor to another parelli person (me) PLEASE don't tell others that they are wrong, need a better relationship or what ever. If they want to bash me, so be it. If they want to bash parelli, well, I am in thier world, not the other way around. I don't expect anyone here to like or agree with me. of course I would prefer not to be bashed, who wouldn't, but I only want to see if it is possible to have dialogue that is not abusive, threatening, berating, belittling and the like. please see that. I am a big girl (yes) and my knickers are on tight. I appreciat support of me/for me, but don't put traditionalist down. PLEASE.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Okay, i have a genuine question. I've been to a 2-day Parelli demo and I'm open-minded.

When the horses are being worked at liberty (I'm thinking particularly of the 2 Friesians that were worked by the lady in the electric wheelchair) why do they have their ears back all the time they are working around her, with their tails swishing... why do they look so angry all the time? I realise they're staying near her of their own volition, but I cannot work out why they do not work like relaxed, happy, ears-forward horses.
Absolutely genuine question.
Fwiw I've been around horses for my entire life and I like to think that I'm good at reading equine body language and mood by now - I've had a lot of horses to teach me it over the years.
Thankyou.

to be honest I have wondered this my self. i asked years ago and don't exactly remember the answer and since my horses don't do that, I didnt' think of it again. I have heard people say things like spunk, and i don't think I can quite get on board with that. I have heard someone say, about "listening" and i definately am not on board with that. My best "guess" is more of a game. when horses "play" it is mock for the fight. while it is play, make no bones about the fact it is prep for dominance. I believe this instinct is stronger in some horse than others. so my guess is since at liberty horses seem more likely to be more like a 'horse' (how mine are anyways) they see it as a more natural way of being them selves, and they are now playing with you, rather than doing you bidding. so when playing with another horse, you must protect your "goods" ears, eyes, legs. so I think they are more protecting thier ears. when in a closer proximity to the human, as in my "watching" I have noticed it is more pronounced the closer they are to the human. farther away, ears are safe and come forward. I also believe they may be a teeny bit ticked, that since now we are 'playing" they may feel a little like
"well how come you can tag me, but I can't tag you" as they would be able to do with an equine buddy.

another thing is that I noticed that alot more in the older days, particularly the first levels packs. since the new red and blue put ALOT more focus on the relationship, and wanted to steer away from being 'task masters" things impoved. and now with the newest changes to the auditions, "expression" is part of your score. you are marked down if your horse has a sour face

and the lady you are speaking of is Silka (sp?) and I give her alot of credit for what she has accomplished on her own, and I am happy for her, that even though god has taken away her legs, he did not take away her horses, and she has found something that she has found a great deal of success in.

but my official answer is:
I have no friggin idea mine dont do that. I can certainly see how anyone would see a pissed off horse. and for all I know, they are

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Agree. I have a v basic genuine question, what is Parelli? I have my own thoughts and personally have never got involved with it but no one has ever actually explained to me what it is and what purpose it has.

Yikes, that is a big question. I can give you the schpeel, or my take on it. I assume you have heard the schpeel, and every other condescending remark in reply to your question. so here is my take on it.

parelli is natural horsemanship. natural horsemanhip is working within the nature of the horse. this includes the predator prey theory, the alpha pecking order theory, a middle of the road (no pun intended with the extreme example set by pat this weekend) basically as nice as possible, but as firm as requried to get your point across.

it teaches (but apparently doesn't follow) to take the time it takes and dont act like a predator. there is an end result to each task technique, that has levels of skill, like dressage. (please I am NOT comparing it to dressage)basically a piaffe starts it level1. you are already prepping the horse for working from the hind end into the bridle, as the years and strength of the horse and rider progress a simple working trot becomes a piaffe, with more power in the back, met by the front, elevates the middle.

so just as in dressage, something you see in parelli level one, is a prep for something in level4. as an example, (killing two questions with one answer i think) leading the horse by the tail is prep for asking a horse to back out of a trailer. with the premis of teach it before you need it.

so just like that task, most tasks in the parelli have practicle everyday uses. and level one is the beginning. before you tie a horse to a post, it should be able to give to the halter when YOU put pressure on it and come forward. before you get tossed off a cliff while ridding your horse on trail, if he shies at something (not 100% avoidable with any program), it should be able to side pass away from your finger on the ground. I wouldnt want to find out fumbling down a hill, face in the dirt, bum in the air, that my horse doesn't yeild from leg pressure.

so the seven games, the basis of the program are
friendly~don't be afraid of this spooky thing
porcupine~yield to steady pressure (finger/leg) MOVE
driving~yield from rythmic pressure, no touch, stay out of my space
circling~lunging learning to be responsible/effective at a distance
squeeze~go onto, over, under between something scary, prep for a trailer, crossing white paint on the pavement, going in puddles, etc, not circus performance.
yo-yo~back and forth, I believe you all call it 'waggle waggle thump thump"
is prep for transitions, & for staying safe. goal is straigtness.

so parelli is a collection of techniques to help you learn how to be safe, and progress toward doing everyday normal things with your horse.

it is in a logical sequence from the easiest to the hardest, but that doesn't make it simple. it teaches about timing, that pressure motivates, and the release is what teaches, so timing is VERY important. the longer you do it, the better your timing is, and the better you do with horses. naturally people take time to gain the "gross motor skills" and progress to "fine motor skils" just like in tradition riding. so don't be surprised that not all students look great, it takes a while to make it look "good". just like with anything else.

if you see a NH'er, and they look like they are fumbling, they are struggling thru the awkward learning phase, and hopefully will get it together soon.

many get trapped in the need to be perfect in level1 and don't progress because they are holding themselves back.

hope that is what you were looking for.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

That was MY question - they always look really cross and tetchy, Ears back and tail swishing and a definite glint in their eyes which I read as 'Oh for Goodness' sake, go away and leave me alone. I'm sick of this!'

despite recent display, we the students are not taught, and to my knowlege don't on thier own either, force the horses to do things.

some horses are tortured wiht the 7 games as people do not, move on and put them to practical use. the horse see's not point to endless sideways etc, and thus.....sour face!

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

I do have a genuine question.
A bit of background first. I've been around horses for 46 years now and do like to investigate something before I either accept or dismiss it. Thus I studied PNH for a while and practiced on one of my horses.
It appears to me that 'timing' of the pressure release is critical and that this should be at the slightest sign of the horse doing as asked (getting the idea).
Recognition of the slightest sign requires (I believe) considerable experience around horses to gain the ability to instantly read their body language.

So my question - if a very key element of successfully using PNH requires a deep understanding of horse body language, why is it marketed at novices?
Surely a novice does not have the ability to react fast enough to small changes in body language and therefore is highly likely to confuse the horse and create stress.

My gut feel after studying PNH for a while was experienced horse peeps dont need it and novices dont have the knowledge to use it safely (horse not human safety).

yes timing is critical, in both NH and traditional. reading a horse is critical in both as well. in my experience, based on the results I see people getting, not just my own, is that it can be done and is being done.

yes, timing is not great on a newbie, but then again, the tasks are safety oriented. the fact of the matter is, they are not forcing people to buy it. they are showing what is possible. at some point people have to realize that they are just not THAT good, to snake charm THAT many people. and there are plenty of people around to make sure that they don't.

people who may infact be novices, are likely there as they already have a horse, and already are seeking help that they have otherwise not been able to find. the majority of people learn alot. I see many traditional trainers milking novice owners as well, it is not exclusive to parelli, if you believe that is what he is doing. I didnt' use to, now I question. keep in mind I have been doing parelli for 10yrs. I am a L4 student, near complete the program.

nothing compares to live instruction, but in the absence of quality live instruction, I will take parelli dvd's everyday of the week and twice on sunday