Ask a Parelli student....no holds barred....you asked, I giveth.

T n C, its great that you are answering these questions for people. I really think its helping in peoples understanding of parelli and NH.

About the wild horse race and rodeos, ive been against them for a long time. But not only those. Steer wrestling, roping and bronc riding is all such barbaric cruelty.
I dont know if many people here has seen the recent flicka film. It had a few scenes with a wild horse race, and i think 2 horses actually died during filming. I always like Tim mgraw's music(who was in the film), but he never spoke out about this so know im not much of a fan.

Its strange though to think that for a country that has produced so many amazing horsemen and woman, that this sort of thing is still so popular. Plus, a lot of great horse trainers started out as bronc riders or bull riders before becoming trainers. Strange.
At least they have one advantage, of being unafraid of backing a bucking youngster.
 
Jennyharvey said:
Its strange though to think that for a country that has produced so many amazing horsemen and woman, that this sort of thing is still so popular.
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I agree. It saddens and frustrates me. Here in California, there is a certain amount of outrage over so-called "Mexican rodeo" in which an event called "tripping" is practiced. It is indeed horrible, involving a horse let loose in an arena and then a rider (or maybe a pair of riders) rope the legs of the horse in order to trip it.

Horses are routinely cut, bruised, lamed and suffer broken bones in these events and the outrage is certainly justified. Especially because defenders use the excuse that it is a cultural and traditional thing (much like the defenders of bullfighting).

And yet rodeo is defended with the same excuse. Tradition alone is no reason to keep a practice if time and experience shows the practice to be cruel or detrimental or unfair or any other negative. I don't care if a bunch of cowboys in the 18th century worked this way - this is the 21st century and I would hope we've evolved!

Sorry for the rant. Stuff like this p***s me off.
 
Oh Baymareb yours is not the only country that has its share of cruelty, here in the UK you only have to go down to an unaffiliated SJ competition to make your blood boil, Pushy parents living their missed chances by sticking their poor little kids on unsuitable ponies, geared up to the hill in bits, curb chains, nose bands, martingales and boots, all you hear is 'whack it' 'turn then whack it again' 'use you spurs' 'give him one in the mouth if it doesn't turn' 'this time if it stops thrash it', yes I've seen it all many times as a course builder!
Luckily here in UK most abuse and I say that very loosely is due to neglect and not physical abuse but that goes on as well.
We are all ashamed of our fellow humans sometimes.

Sorry drifting off topic
 
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pippinpie said:
Oh Baymareb yours is not the only country that has its share of cruelty, here in the UK you only have to go down to an unaffiliated SJ competition to make your blood boil, Pushy parents living their missed chances by sticking their poor little kids on unsuitable ponies, geared up to the hill in bits, curb chains, nose bands, martingales and boots, all you hear is 'whack it' 'turn then whack it again' 'use you spurs' 'give him one in the mouth if it doesn't turn' 'this time if it stops thrash it', yes I've seen it all many times as a course builder!
Luckily here in UK most abuse and I say that very loosely is due to neglect and not physical abuse but that goes on as well.
We are all ashamed of our fellow humans sometimes.

Sorry drifting off topic
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Very true. But its not just the children. Adults can just be as bad, and they are bigger and stronger so could cause hurt much more easily.
 
No, what Monty Roberts does is not the same as Parelli. Although, some of what Monty Roberts does can be just as contentious.
 
tongue~n~cheek said:
I recieved a cyber beating by my peers and for trying to do something NICE for the parelli's. Nothing more. I was never so embarresed in all my life. Even if I get outed publicly for this thread, I will not be embarrased by it. The other I was.
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T n C I have said it before and I will say it again. You should stand up and be SO SO SO SO proud of what you have achieved on this forum. Your grace, humility, clarity and honesty have been poured out in your posts and you have achieved amazing things. Pat should be banging at your door to have lessons on how to create open discussion without making people feel small and put upon. Your Parelli peers should hang their heads in shame for bullying such a caring, honest person. As you know, I have changed and its down to you and your willingness to accept people and let them see who you really are. There is ALWAYS a space for you on this forum, and I know I am not the only one who thinks this. You have 'bridged the gap', let people learn, understand and discuss the true meaning of parelli and yet let them still keep their ideals too, something that Pat has yet to achieve, and probably never will.
 
VictoriaEDT said:
To be honest OP I am not really interested in an explanation of "catwalkgate" - it is blindingly obvious PP and LP behaviour here was not acceptable. I have seen in the past LP throwing a rope into the face of a horse with one eye - she was standing on the "blind" side of the horse all the time and threw the rope into the blind side. That speaks for itself and is why I am not interested in hearing their side of the story.
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I can't remember if I commented on this, I got a little lost last night, I think this is where I left off.

this thread is not for me to explain "catwalkgate" (lol love it)

each person has to stand up for what they saw with thier own eyes, be it in person, dvd, hidden camera phone. I for one have my own opinion on it, but cannot explain it. some have tried to explain it, as a fact, both the horsemanship side of it (tools and techniques) and the principles side (venue, when to quit, lack of comment and so forth)

to me that is an injustice to all involved including the horse. I think the ONLY one who can and should comment is Pat ( IMO in more detail). the FACT of the matter is, the ONLY person who knows what he did, how and why is Pat himself. short of an true explaination and FULL video viewing or FULL eye witness, i think judgement should be reserved. the video clips are far too grainy, distant, and SHORT to give ANY one the full facts for judgement. Not to mention lack of an OFFICIAL statement by BHS, FOTH officials, and ALL vets involved, leaves you with not enough facts to do anything other than guess and speculate. leaving one to give opinions like misinformed accusation or defense. It doesn't appear to me that the students have done anything to help the matter.

and the ones who honestly need to stand judgment are the ones who created this problem in this horse, and his current owner who let 8 weeks pass before seeking any help, and then a quick fix at that, rather than learn to handle a horse him self with patience and time.:cool:
 
anima said:
They don't seem able to handle their own PR well,so amybe they should :p

I am not anti NH. TBH I am not even really anti PNH since I am of a veiw that if it works and causes no harm it's all good.
The second you put on "colours" though it all goes to ****,and teh Parelli's attitude to "outsiders" has done nothing to make them just one of a long line of methods avalable-the us or abuse mentality has made them(and their product) into a figure of hatred.

Monty Roberts has never(at least not since he came to be a "known" figure") felt a backlash like Parelli for instance,simply because he puts his point across in a simple,gentle way and works hard to ensure it makes sense.
The Parelli's respond with "you don't understand"-attempting to make experianced horsemen feel stupid will never endear you ;)
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agreed. I hate that he said "no one works harder than I". how arrogant. I understand what he "meant" but he understands more about public speaking that expect people to know what he "meant".

saying that other dont understand, while a fact, we DONT understand, to say so is condescending at best. just because someone doesn't do parelli doesn't mean they are ignorant. and just because you do, doesn't mean you are all knowing. while most will in fact not understand the "technique" as you WOULD have to have a fundemental understanding of the method to do so, I think the part they are missing is the fact that most dont understand how he GOT there in the first place. which takes little more than common sense and decency to come to the conclusion that he shouldn't have GONE THERE.

to say there was confusion? I dont think people are "confused" about how they feel. either pro or con. and to insinuate that is the "problem" will get exactly what you said. people think, you think they are stupid, and never endear you!

I think they all too often ignore the "naysayers". this is not bright IMO, as there is value in critisism and questions. you dont have to agree with them, but they do give you a - to the + on your compass to guide you on your journey. with out it, your compass will no longer always point north, it will do no more than spin out of control:cool:
 
THanks TNC, you have been honest and upfront, but please explain how'hitting a horse' with a rope around the head that is head shy, cures the horse.

ANd please explain why it took my 20 r old horse 18mts to trust me again after he went on loan, and he had a parelli person show him how to ' behave' and broke the mans arm?

And after just loving him and looking after him , he is now lovely and beautiful, and kind?

Just a question on common sense.......
 
daisydo said:
THanks TNC, you have been honest and upfront, but please explain how'hitting a horse' with a rope around the head that is head shy, cures the horse.

ANd please explain why it took my 20 r old horse 18mts to trust me again after he went on loan, and he had a parelli person show him how to ' behave' and broke the mans arm?

And after just loving him and looking after him , he is now lovely and beautiful, and kind?

Just a question on common sense.......
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because I am only on page 13 on aswering questions, it will be a while before I get to this. so if you could, restate your question, as I can't find one I can answer. I am guessing here, that there is an actual horse you know (yours) or one in a Linda dvd or catwalk, that you are speaking of. alone, for me, each of those situations will have a different answer. so if you are speaking of why someone may have done a spicific thing to YOUR horse, as I am suspecting, need more info as to which situation you are speaking of.

and "hitting a horse about the head", I need more discription of what this means. describe the "how" of the hitting. what I picture in my head may not be what you saw.

I am sorry about what happened to your horse. as to why it took 18months would be dependant on MANY different things. such as the type of horse he is, what happened to him, and how/what you have done to help him heal. without those details, I cannot really answer in all honesty. it would just be drivvling propeganda, and I know no one is looking for that.

I have a very long explaination about 'trust". however, because it is plastered all over "my" domain. sharing it with you here would "out" me.

give me more info. if it something I can answer, I will. :cool:
 
SpottedCat said:
The O'Conners are 4* level event riders, so pretty good horsemen.

But that does not answer my question, which was why does Parelli not advocate kit which can't be used in this way (i.e. a better way of fastening line to halter so if people bypass steps it does not end up with a horse being hit round the head like that), not, is this kit universal in the NH world and can I buy it outside the Parelli system.
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Page 12 is where I am at. if I have missed anything before this, let me know.

First of course I cannot speak other than MY speculation, but it is intentional, and common among many NH practitioners. Pat calls it a "hinge"

I am going to my best to explain this and yet still stay brief, and in no way judging one type as better than another.

the hinge acts as a buffer/diffuser. if the rope is directly attached to the halter, not in a link fashion such as this

http://idfropehalters.com/shop/index.cfm.23.html

(note, stallion pic is of stallion that is half brother to my aunts stallion that I rode as a child, what a cool discovery, havnt heard the name fadjur in 30ys)

then the rope becomes a part of the halter. thus losing some subtlety in technique. when you wiggle rope lightly, and rope not touching the ground, the halter will move more easily on the face of the horse, with less energy being exerted by the human.

when you have a hinge type attachement like this, take note of how low the snap is from the face.

http://www.downunderhorsemanship.com/products2.cfm/id/33/name/Rope Halter

the snap is not infact tied and thus able to freely move about the loop of the halter, so when you send a tad too much energy (we are talking about "refined" technique here, it slows DOWN at the snap, and doesn't move the halter as quickly, thus making your phase 3 more effective and less likely to feel like the beginning of a phase 4. (there is a post regarding the exact explanation of the 4 phases as it applies to the yo-yo.

and with the added weight, it hangs, thus making it less likely to hit horse when in a light phase 4. but there if needed for an effective phase 4 when safety is an issue or a higher level of skill.

I know there is NO way anything I say can convince you that the snap REALLY doesn't hit the horse as often as you think. so rather than try to do that, I will try to make a small video tomorow (with my loan ranger mask on) to demonstrate to you what it SHOULD look like when done correctly, and that it doesn't hit the head in the way you think it does, when not done correctly in the hands of novices, or when done correctly as a phase 4 one time 'POP". showing all of this that I describe. no promises as it is my mothers birthday and I wil be doing old lady things till my eyes roll out of my head, but will do it no later than moday for sure and post a link here.

but since I am not sure that will convince you still, all I can say, is go to tack store and expiriment for yourself.

Now, before I get a bunch of replies about what a crock of bull this is, the difference between the two types of attachment are minimal. like comparing a mercedes and a bmw. they both get you from point a to point b, but handle just a bit differently.

I also am NOT saying that the snap NEVER unintentionaly hits the horse.
lets say that you imagine that horse gets hit with EVERY swing and sway of the rope. You see the rope swing 20 times thus think the horse gets whacked 20 times. I will say, with NO scientific eveidence, just swingin a dead kat here, maybe 10-20%. so out of 20 swings the horse MAY get whacked 2-4 times. my feeling is less than that, but since I haven't been a novice in QUITE some time, nor have any of my students, I cannot recal with accurate guess. I for one, have this corrected with in the first lesson with a student, as I would NEVER tolerate someone looking like david did in that video, and point to me as thier trainer.:eek:

the skilled "one pop" I was speaking of can be learned in one lesson (usually minutes) and IS taught in the program. at least the red/blue levels. i cannot speak for the new pkts as I honesly have just skimed them over (not a fan of the new levels) though it may also be in other dvd's series.

AND, since you SHOULD be using phases, the snap would NEVER hit the horse at ALL during those phases. if done corectly, the horse should honestly RARELY get whacked. if you see evidence otherwise, you are not seeing it done correctly.

AND I know for a FACT not all people with a carrot stick are following Pat, and may be following another practioner, so before you judge it as PNH, you should ask the person 'who's" technique they are using.

whew/swipes brow and heads out for a smoke,

was it as good for you?:cool:
 
SpottedCat said:
The O'Conners are 4* level event riders, so pretty good horsemen.

But that does not answer my question, which was why does Parelli not advocate kit which can't be used in this way (i.e. a better way of fastening line to halter so if people bypass steps it does not end up with a horse being hit round the head like that), not, is this kit universal in the NH world and can I buy it outside the Parelli system.
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Also, FWIW, clinton anderson, who is known for being more "assertive" than other practitioners, and has a thinner, stiffer, halter with more nose knots.

the wiggle wiggle whack whack, is more "harsh" than the parelli's yet he gets little flack. I think it is because of his people approach.:cool:
 
foolforahorse said:
Please explain to me what Linda is trying to accomplish here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyF2QqP29DU
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OK, the one you have been waiting for.

this, for me, is like floating in shark infested waters while bleeding, but in the interest of getting to the top of Everest, I will try to explain. I am full aware that this will NOT change anyones mind. Please know this is not in defense of Linda, nor is my opinion in ANY way "approved" by PNH. This is JUST my explanation as I see it, and at the end, my opinion.

I watched it just now as I have not viewed this EDITED version, in months, and the FULL version in years. AND my eyesite is not the best for small videos on the computer screen. I WILL try and find my level1 and watch on th big screen, though it is VERY low on my priority list;) as I already know my position on this matter.

So one thing i noticed in reference to comments made about this video, not just recently but a few months back as well, is that she is saying "bump" not "thump', I know this sounds like "WTF is the difference". In many circles a bump is regarding a tug on the halter, and a thump when the snap connects. now how many circles, and how big the circles, I don't know. I may be the only circle, with a member of 1 (me) but I don't think so.

in peoples accusations of the entirety being abuse, I know that makes no difference, and I need not be told that, I know full well the abuse stance. this is not the thread for it PLEASE.

but since there is MUCH talk about the equiptment, in general, and the snap in specific, it has relevence. in a bump, the snap is not likely to make any contact. in a thump it does, and it may be intentional or unintentional.

In order for the snap to hit the horse in the face a few laws of physics must be met. YES there is criteria to be met, for said snap "abuse" to take place.

1. you have to have some sort of slack in the rope, the more slack the more likely a thump, otherwise you will just get a bump or possibly some rope touches to the face.

2. there has to be some sort of up ward movement from the rope, or

3. there has to be some sort of serious sideways and upward swing in the rope.

In watching the video, yes there are times the snap makes contact. And as I have stated in a previous post, you cannot deny the EFFORT she is putting into this. It is a situation like this, that usually results in the horse getting the "whack" to the head that you talk about. NOT, generally speaking, normal days of playing and learning, and certainly not once both the horse and handler understand the technique. So in reference to novices having sessions like this, it shouldn't be happening often or for very long.
And only after the proper phases 1-2-3 that I have previously described been applied. And a normal phase 4 shouldn't look like this.

This video is NOT a typical play session where the focus is on learning. This horse was severely distracted and not listening to more subtle requests, that are edited out of this video. I have a horse like this as well, so I understand the nature of what is going on in the video. Linda is doing what she can to get this horses attention. It appears to me that she is also experimenting as to "what" technique applied, actually DOES get this horses attention. Then focusing on using that strategy. She is releasing when she gets "one eye" (not picking on a one eyed horse, just sounds funny saying "2 eyes" in regards to a horse that actually only has one eye) the "attention" however is lost almost immediately, resulting in the technique being quickly applied again. This horses adrenaline is very high, and he is very focused on what ever it is that is going on in the distance. As someone who owns and has been on many "joy rides" that followed that exact kind of behavior, I know how important it is to have your horses full attention, because once running, there is almost NO stopping them. Often with horses like this, they don't even notice all your comotion, it is as if you don't exist, no matter how "brutal" the application may seem. And that is what is scariest of all (for me anyways) you stand there saying to yourself "OMG what do I have to do to get this horse to notice me, with out getting my self run over or kicked"

In my experience, pre parelli, it was these types of horses that had stud chains both over thier noses and used as a gum CHAIN. And I have seen that thousands of times. At that time, I also had used stud chains when I felt required, but never in the mouth. My position was, I would rather yank on that chain once, maybe twice, be understood, and have no further incidents. As opposed to repeated other in'effective techniques. But it was a last resort, not a first one.

So in watching the video, what I SEE, is a horse that is barely if even aware that Linda is there creating all that comotion. And if it is, it is ignoring her and her comotion. Is the horse getting whacked and thumped in the head, yanked on, bumped and spanked? YES! Does the horse even notice it? NO!

Now for my opinon. While not a particularly effective campain, it is ultimately effective. Of course the end of video also edited out. And a whole lot in between. Was this the best way to go about it? Maybe not. Are there other (notice I did not say better) ways to go about this? YES! Is this the only way? NO! Is this the best way? Who knows Would Linda do it differently or better today? (it also is an old video) In MY opinion, likely. As she is a better horse woman today than then, and we all grow and get better. Should this have been in thier program? I found it educational, but I learn something from everything, even if it is what not to do. Is this ONE clip of info, the sum of the whole of the program as it was then (20hrs of video) or today? NO

Do I think it is abuse? NO! I would if that horse had it's full attention on her, was doing everything in it's power to please her, and she kept on it anyway. But that didn't happen. NOT EVEN CLOSE. is it bullying, 'eh, that is in the eye of the beholder.

IF you feel that is abuse, those are your feelings and I am not here to tell you that you are wrong. So please, do not tell me that I am wrong. I put myself out there to try to offer some explanation, as I see it. I said I would answer honest questions, and I feel this IS and honest question. I am NOT the one in this video, and will NOT respond to attacks against me on this. "I" have done nothing wrong. And I am NOT asking you to agree with me.

I was asked "what is Linda trying to accomplish here?" So this is MY interpretation only. Linda and the owner, offered a HONEST, HEARTFELT and COMPLETE explanation regarding this MONTHS ago.

What I find so terribly sad, is that at this moment, in 3 short DAYS, the petition to BAN the parellis, who have saved directly or indirectly hundreds of thousands of horses lives, already has 708 signatures. And yet the petition below, to ban one of the cruelest "sports" in modern civilization that actually KILLS horses for human entertainment, only has recieved 257 in 3 WEEKS. If you have not yet seen it, I ask you to now.

I want to thank all of you that have helped me, support the petition here as you have done more to help the petition than anyone else (in signature count) GO UK! :cool:
 
eahotson said:
You might actually (if you have the time) go to the tag ends of the other Parelli posts.There is beginningto be SOME acceptance by both traditionalists and the Parelli camp that at least if we can't agree ,we can disagree peacefully.That not all practitioners of Parelli are slavish to Pat and Linda and that we all want the same in the end, to do the best by our horses.
This dominance issue.Don't we all dominate our horses to some degree.You may want your horse to go in a trailer so you can go to a show.Most of us try and do this kindly.Showing the horse that there is nothing to be afraid of and driving consideratly.HOWEVER at the end of the day, you require him to go in the trailer.You are not really giving him a choice.
I have lost count of how many trads say For sure I give him a whack if he misbehaves.Whats that but dominance really.We do itwith dogs, cats children anyone we feel resposible for.We give them some degree of freedom.I always think of my horses field time as HIS time and as far as possible his box as HIS home.When I take him out to ride that is MY time.The price he pays for the lovely lifestyle he has generally.
You need to be able to say NO to children for many reasons, not least there personal safety.To the 3 year old NO you may not cross that busy road on your own.
When out on a hack you need to be able to say to your horse NO you may not turn round and bolt for home simply because you don't like the look of that lorry.Its simply not safe either for you or him.
There is a check and balance to all of this.Over dominance becomes bullying which is what I PERSONALLY (And I accept that other people may not agree) happened to Pat at that demo.
I would also question Roberts role in all of this.MANY REASONS.One is though.Its stated by someone on the other post that his friend practises Parelli and he wanted to give it a shot with Catwalk but that he didn't stay for the demo.Well if I wanted to try Parelli methods I would have made sure I stayed for the demo.It doesn't make sense otherwise and I quite agree with the OP it certainly does seem that Robert has no interest at all in any form of ground work.
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I couldn not have said this better myself. To be honest, while those are EXACTLY my opinons, since I am answerinn questions, I didn't even think of it.
So thank you!:cool:
 
Thanks for all this discussion TIC.
RE the clip, it's just not needed. Other trainers and their students manage to get beautiful subtle communication without ever having to even risk metal clunking on their horse's face. I think the problem is that Parelli is so entrenched in the use of their phases. I'm taught now to ask softly with the initial cue (like phase 1), but then support it with different "ask" if the horse doesn't understand. As a result I have found that I can do way, way less to achieve much more with my horse, and without putting them under so much pressure. I don't increase my initial cue to get a horse to respond. (No touch the hair, touch the skin, touch the muscle, touch the bone...).
Probably the reason others manage so well with ropes that link directly to their halters is because they never feel the need to swing their rope about in the Parelli way.
I do know how much the clips hit the face, and of course it isn't with every swing, but even once is unacceptable to me. Sometimes those halters fit so badly that the clips make contact with the face just because the horse gets some energy going. Not fair.
 
ORANGEHORSE said:
TnC I think you have given some excellent, thoughtful answers to the questions, well done.

I haven't got involved with Parelli as I doubt my ability as a trainer, and I thought that there was too much to go wrong if "done at home" without supervision of an experienced trainer. But I know people who have had terrific success with previously difficult horses, and the horses canter towards their owners in greeting when they see them.

I think we are all in agreement that the Catwalk demo went seriously wrong.
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While I am NOT trying to convert you, it is the reason why you chose not to investigate NH that I want to comment on. If you have a horse, whether you like it or not, you are his trainer. whether you think you are doing anything or not, you are his trainer. You are the one who spends the majority of the time alone with him. So IF, and only IF you are interested in it. Dont let this last weekend deter you from investigating it. If you have friends that are doing it, they will likely have no problem letting you borrowing something that might give you a dabble in it, so YOU can make up your mind for YOUSELF. You don't need to go 'lock stock and barrel". You don't need to change your lifestyle. Talk to your friends about it. let them know you are interested and that you have questions, sincere questions (we are a leary bunch about questions) and you would like them to share thier experiences, good and bad, and that if you have any follow up questions, you will let them know.

despite the fact that it doesn't work for everyone. MANY people do it all on thier own and have fabulouse results. And thier are instructors out there that can help you.:cool:
 
Anyone thinking of looking further into "nh" style training. Can I suggest that you go and watch some clinics first? There are some excellent trainers out there who visit the UK, check whose approach sits best with you before you invest too much time (or money!).
See, I now think, to coin Parelli's phrase, that Parelli are the "best of the worst". Look further and find the best.
 
That is probably the closest thing to a clear explanation of the LP video I have seen. It seemed to me that she was trying to gain the horse's attention but it did and still does seem a ridiculous way to do so.

My horse gets distracted. She's young, she's curious and she sees shiny things and butterflies all the time. Instead of flapping a rope at her for an interminable amount of time, I put her to work. I can't see how the method in the video - no matter how expertly applied - would work better than giving the horse something to do. I guess I just don't see the point.

Nor do I see the point of the situation with Catwalk. Whether or not either one of those events was abuse, I'll leave to those who witnessed them in their entirety, but I fail to see the benefit of working with Catwalk the way he was worked with. Perhaps he is being bridled now - as I understand, he was being bridled before, Whitaker had only had him 8 weeks and I think it's likely that less drastic measures would have solved the issue. We've had dozens of people tell how they solved similar issues without all the drama.

So for those who keep saying, "you just don't understand" - no, I guess I don't. But I really don't want to either because I can't imagine going through all that to accomplish things I've accomplished much easier my own way.
 
Sorry T i C but this is another accolade!! Sincere congrats to you, and most of the other posters to enable this fantastic discussion to take place. I think this is a first!!! Everyone listening and contributing with very little anxt!! I have been studying the original Parelli programme for about 12 years now. What impressed me when I first audited a clinic was how everything I learned as a child (Pony Club to A certificate pass) was given a logical sequence and a reason for doing it. "It's so old it's new again". However I have been backing away for about 4 years - since the "Linda levels" came out with THAT video on them!!! I have seen Pat live 2ce. The first time I was impressed, even though there were a couple of things I questioned!! The second time I was more impressed by his students. I felt he was a bit "over the top" - and that was about 5 or 6 years ago now. The one thing that really put me off was being told to accept what is said, not to question, just to "do it"!!! Me - I question everything!!!

Gotta say - FADJUR WAS GORGEOUS!!! One of my pin ups!!

Alyth
 
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drover said:
Hi tounge in cheek,

I am interested to hear your thoughts on the lowering of standards in the parelli world in a huge way with levels and the fact that it is so so easy to become an instructor.

10 years ago the quality of the instructors was very high but now anybody with money can get endorsed regardless of knowledge, skills or experience.

I have been in this side of the industry for over 20 years and the parelli thing started great but in particular over the last few years the materials taught and quality of instructors has dropped in a big way.

I learned from some the great horsemen that pat learned from and originally pat was doing a pretty good job of passing on that knowledge(although expensive) but know its incredibly watered down it seems just to make more money from selling heaps more dvds.

I know from my many friends world wide that are still involved with parelli that some of the new instructors have not even completed and passed the new level 2 system and are out there teaching and charging for 'online' instruction.

As my teacher R.H. would have said it should be quality and not quantity you offer (he was refering to the horse but it really refers to most things)
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Ahhh, I have been itching to answer this one;) First of all, I couldn't agree more! I am P I S S E D that they got rid of the blue/red packs, AND quite honestly would like Linda to complete it with a L3, in the same styel and quality of concepts and philosophy. We can repackage the whole thing as Linda Horsemanship;) and can include everything for L4 too, that way it is complete for the modern. the patterns are seperate from the levels as far as material is anyways, so what is the harm. I know they had to change it for the sake of restructuring the whole program, to make it easier to progress through the OFFICIAL process, but really, the way to get to the top is the same. I know lots of people didn't like them because it was Linda, and not Pat. And some people found it all, "too much information". but now there is not enough. while I don't want to see them re-do anything AGAIN, I would like for Linda to complete what she started for those of us who learn better her way. I honestly Like linda, and probably wouldn't have started parelli if it wasn't for her. So Linda, if your out there, 'um, do you think..........?

I am under the impression that you must be at least L3 grduate, albiet, I think you can "self" asses, and still apply. Personally, i find a whole lot of fault with THAT. I know alot of people will fudge at least a little:o
but everyone has to do a 30min? audition, with certain criteria met in order to apply to be an instructor. this is seperate, even if you do pass L3 officially. I have not had but one clinic in all my years parelli, done it all on my own, I have audited one dave ellis clinic and that is it. so I really cannot speak of the quality of the instructors anyways with any personal knowlege.
Is your friend sure about the not passing the NEW level 2 and they are "endorsed" instructors. If that is the case tell your friend to ask for credentials and a card or something, get a name/s and PM me, I would like to know more about that. If that is true, there is something seriously wrong with that. I am leaning toward something being fishy.

I can speak on speculation as far as the rest though. Yes it is easier to become one now, easier than ever. but only a 1* 2* max. you still gotta jump thru some hoops to become higher than that though, and rightly should. Here is my fear, as a previous PP hopefull, as i have taken that off the table for now. At the current rate of new PP's going thru in the last year, and to come this year, all out there giving FREE lessons as required until they get so many hours of teaching under thier belt, it will devalue anyone as a 1*.

times are tough right now, especially in the states, and I constantly hear how hard it is for some to even keep thier club membership. so why pay for lessons, when you can find a new 1* to get them for free. Furthermore, now with the new requirement that you HAVE to be a member in order to attend clinics or even take lessons (you can get 3 trial lessons without joining) after that must be a member to participate in parelli activities, there goes a whole lot of business, and comunity respect out the window. if they think we are a cult now, imagine when that goes mainstream. OMG they will slaughter us. I may as well shave my head, pull out my birkenstocks, get a white rope and hand out carrots at the airport. Wont be much of a discernable differnce in many peoples eyes. if it gets bad i will paint my sticks green and start my own celery stick business.:rolleyes: When you add this and the new ambassador program, aye aye aye! 'eh. for now I am a student, and those shoes fit me well. I enjoy it. I got a lot of pent up frustration at the moment on this stuff.

Being a good teacher takes a heck of alot more than being a good student. Some can and some can't. The old saying, those who can't, TEACH. Goes for the opposite too. I have an eagle eye, but screw thing up for myself royaly from time to time. But I am a great teacher, coach, counselor etc, and have alot of life experience to draw on. like I said, I will burn that bridge when I get to it!:cool:
 
Tinypony said:
Anyone thinking of looking further into "nh" style training. Can I suggest that you go and watch some clinics first? There are some excellent trainers out there who visit the UK, check whose approach sits best with you before you invest too much time (or money!).
See, I now think, to coin Parelli's phrase, that Parelli are the "best of the worst". Look further and find the best.
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I second that motion. the auditing part. I think people should do it regardless of traditional or NH:cool:
 
please read the statement under "BHS Statement" thread - very interesting response from them, and I think it's what we mostly wanted to hear. sm x
 
roo2012 said:
t~n~c thank you for your reply, you have answered many questions on this thread that other people have been unwilling or unable to answer before.

I understand a lot of the reasoning you have given and perhaps if I had a problem horse I would be even more aware. Luckily I have a horse with near perfect manners.

Although you have dashed my dream of travelling to see wild pokemon in their natural habitat..
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your welcome, glad I could help.;)

Yet another Pikachu Hunter lost in the jungles of Japan!

I for one have a Ponyta, my kid gave it to me. He got her from a Pokemon whisperer, I am told if I follow the program, she will evolve into a magical creature with a mane and tail of FIRE!
http://picture.funnycorner.net/funny-pictures/5684/Ponyta-1.jpg
:cool:
 
Thankyou for your posts TIC, I'm following with interest!

Personally I feel that there is abuse or at least the potential for abuse, in any 'method', even mis-using body language can be confusing for a horse, and how often do we see the top riders doing the showjumping phase in a 3 day event in a hackamore because the horse has a sore or damaged mouth? I was (am) unhappy at the handling poor Catwalk had to endure, and after watching vids of how Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling handles truly aggressive stallions I can see how different the parelli demonstration was from what communication with horses CAN be.

I think all we can do is to follow our own intuition and common sense and take the 'good' bits that resonate with us and leave the rest, providing we are honestly doing our best for our horses, always questioning and not blindly following.

We are all constantly learning and the day we stop caring enough to question the why's and wherefore's of something is the day we shouldn't be doing it. Hopefully we can all learn lessons from this for the sake of our horses.
 
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