Ask a Parelli student....no holds barred....you asked, I giveth.

Just had to pop in here and express my admiration for tongue in cheek for answering questions willingly and with an honest and open approach. A skill and attitude to aspire to.
 
catkin said:
Thank you TnC for taking the time to explain so well and dispassionately and for being thought-provoking.

I have always had difficulty with the semantics and labels being bandied about (being defensive myself here I guess)
'natural horsemanship'? - my horses don't live naturally, but I have brought them into this life so it's my responsibility to make it as comfortable for them as possible using whatever tools we need for OUR particular circumstances;
the phrase 'playing' with horses has always made me feel a bit queasy - as I interpret that as the crazy bucking, galloping games they do with each other out in the field - me, I'm not a playmate, I'm just this weird alien being who they usually like to associate with 'cos I feed them, groom them, entertain them perhaps.

On the equipment side, I wonder how many of us can honestly say we have NOT bought something because of the branding........
I certainly have, and I can be extremely fussy about the design of equipment as, like lots of people, I have found that some things work, for me, better than others (for example, I know I am more effective longreining with terrets on a roller rather than D-rings).

Thank you for the explanation of the use of the voice - this is something that has always confused me about the Parelli system as it is an aid I have been taught and encouraged to use since I was a child (decades ago now).

Can you please clarify that I have understood this correctly - it is discouraged at the beginning to allow concentration on bodylanguage but then used later if required. I'm interested because an old nagsman I had the good fortune to be taught by years ago used to use the voice in two very distinct ways, a soft murmuring when reassuring/gentling a horse and a crisp 'request' like trot-on, stand, back, which was to be clear and not surrounded with 'chit-chat' - the rest of the time you were silent around the horses.
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Yes you have understood correctly, with one exception, reintroduction of voice if 'desired" most do not go back, as they have become quite fluent in the body language.
Just as your old nagsman knew, to be "chatty" will, put your voice aid in a fog of confusion. ANY aid can be mis-used, including voice. if you are constantly blathering about and not keeping your voice cues, clear, the horse wont even recognize them as a cue, and just like body language, there is likely a consequence to follow if not listened to, to give the command meaning.

As for the semantics, PLAY, as a word or description for "working" with our horses. Pat knows, and I agree, that a single word can completely change our mindset. We use the word "play" to help keep our wits about ourselves, and not abuse the good nature of equine friends. doesnt mean that if you dont use that word, that you have a negatice mind set. only that as a program, he wanted to be able to reach those that DO.:cool:
 
ponynuts said:
I think it is quite appropriate you use the term "cult" - which would support my theory that all followers of Parelli have been brainwashed! This would explain your completely lame reasons for this despicable demonstration of, domination of an innocent animal with brute force and 'crass' showmanship. If you are making a living from dishing out this rubbish, I would sincerely hope that you are able to diversify quickly and find a new use for your 'carrot stick' - because when people see this fiasco for themselves, they will at least have the courage to admit they have been 'scammed' by a couple of real cowboys!
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"MY" completely lame reasons?

I am looking around and confused to where I am? HMMMMM

If you have truly read all of THIS thread, up to this point on page 16 and still have that opinion of ME, than who am I to try to change your mind?:cool:
 
SophieRIDSH said:
In one of the "Barney" videos Linda can be heard to say "Oh, good clunk" as the clip hits the horse in the chin

FWIW, if I want a horse to move her body I apply an aid to her body. I might even clunk a whip to her chest if a less fourceful request to back up is ignored.

The most common first reaction to a clunk on the horse's chin is that the horse moves her head, usually up. Barney demonstrates this quite clearly.

Anyway, it's 9:30 AM on the east coast USA and I really should be cleaning stalls and getting mares in. We are expecting a high of 95F or about 35C. I'm really procrastinating
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I have basically answered this in another post. But many, including the parelli program use many techniques to back a horse up. the program is there to teach them to us. however, because the wiggle waggle is the most noticable, and different from traditional techniques, it is the one that is focused on and gets the most attention. the wiggle waggle is first and foremost a means to teach novices to stay SAFE and keep a horse out of your space. something I think we all can agree is a must. this is just one way to achieve that safety.:cool:
 
bay_beasty said:
welcome to the forum pony nuts.... are you are long term lurker first time poster?
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I said earlier to some one pro parelli, that if you ignore and not inflame an opposing and rediculous remark, you will be noticed as having nothing but nobel and honest intentions, and those that mistreat you in that light will be set straight by one of thier own.

I would rather not be condescending, be recognised for who I am, earn my oppositions respect (not agreement) and see the alphas of thier own pack chase them away from the carcass.

thank you bay beasty for proving my point! and thank you ponynuts for giving her the opportunity to do so.:cool:
 
tongue~n~cheek said:
I said earlier to some one pro parelli, that if you ignore and not inflame an opposing and rediculous remark, you will be noticed as having nothing but nobel and honest intentions, and those that mistreat you in that light will be set straight by one of thier own.

I would rather not be condescending, be recognised for who I am, earn my oppositions respect (not agreement) and see the alphas of thier own pack chase them away from the carcass.

thank you bay beasty for proving my point! and thank you ponynuts for giving her the opportunity to do so.:cool:
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I learned from the best :D :D
 
Caledonia said:
I'm impressed at your patience, t'nc, thank you for your replies. :)



It was interesting to read the breakdown of the left/right/introvert/extrovert brain labels. I can see how that would be helpful to a degree for the inexperienced owner; ie to have it pointed out to them their horse's 'type' so they understood their horse's boundaries.

However, here's the first but; if they can't figure it for themselves without labelling, how can they figure it from the DVDs?

And my second but; the four types are not nearly enough. Reading a horse is far more complicated than that.

With it spelled out I can sweepingly identify each horse I have ever worked with within one of those boxes, but also some horses that can switch between the two. I have one that goes from mostly confident/lazy/stubborn to occasionally unconfident/quiet/unpredictable, it happens like lightning, and if I was inexperienced and continued with the assumption I was still dealing with box 1, I could well be very squished.

I do understand you are saying this is a basic breakdown, but I think what I'm struggling to say is that these labels are dangerous if incorrectly applied or misunderstood, and if a programme suggests that you can learn this via DVD, it has to be missing something.

Back in the non Parelli world, most successful trainers and horsemen (in all disciplines) read their horses and those of their pupils. It's part of the brief, and the biggest clue out there for working with horses, IMO. But that is done on a real level, face to face, with the opportunity for the trainer/rider to see and adjust.

I think the less experienced buy into the idea, which in essence is a good IDEA, but not so great in practice if you don't have the innate understanding of the horse in the first place. As others have said in various places, the horses that I have seen that seem to mostly cope with Parelli seem to be resigned to their fate, not alert and sharing the 'bond', they appear worried to put a foot wrong.
Unfortunately some of those that haven't coped have turned into confused and angry animals, whose trust and desire to please has long gone, because those using the tools don't understand what they are doing.

This is where Parelli fails the horses for me.
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Ok, I have only given the bare bones most basic description, and a non NH person can sweepingly identify every horse they have ever worked with.
So imagine a person with a 10dvd set on the subject with all told god knows how many hours. this is the ONE thing that the parelli's can honestly take credit for. there are specific strategies that apply to each of the "labels" that work best for that kind of horse. And yes many horses are quadrant jumpers, thus making it a must to know the strategies for all, and address the horse that shows up at any given moment. many people are now quite skilled in being able to read a horse, and many, like my self do the chart for the horse in different situations. I have a friend that has a mild LBE but when he was first started undersaddle the trainer (not parelli/not traditional)didnt know that he was an RBI with the saddle, thus he was bucking and rearing. I noticed it when she was saddling and asked her about it. we stopped right there, changed her approach and took the time needed to fix it right there until he was confident with the saddle alone, and from that moment on she used the rbi strategies while doing ground work with the sadle on rather than the usual LBE strategies. in less than 3 weeks, this novice rider had a confident horse with no more bucking. but his signs were so subtle they went unnoticed. I who had a great deal of traditional common sense prior to parelli, and I have learned a great deal about horsenalities.

If a novice has no "common sense" as you all call it here, but does in fact have a horse, how do you go about teaching them to read a horse? Chances are it is similar, they just gave it a name, gave it labels, put it on dvd's so that people who do not have access to someone with common sense to get help from, can still have success reading a horse. trust me it can be learned and is learned everyday to great success. the birth of it was in the old L2blue. it isn't just the labels though that make it amazing, it is the included strategies to go with the labels that sets it apart from the rest.

when working with a horse i ask my self all the time, is he confident or unconfident. i ask a horse to do something and watch his reply and ask my self again, often the int/ex is easy from there. some times it is tricky, but is it not anyways. people in all methods have difficulty, this is not exclusive to the parelli's. no one is perfect. no one.

I look at it like this, it is a tool. when you look at me, the only tools you see are the halter/lead/carrotstick/string, what you can't see is the wharehouse of a tackroom inside my head. some people only have a mental tack room the size of a foot locker, others the size of a shed. Everyday I am at the mental tack store buying things to put in mine. someday it will be the size of sears tower.

perhaps you could be seeing a person with a carrot stick that has not had much learning of the horsenalities. again, many people carry the stick, not all are following parelli program. if you really want to blow thier mind, walk up and ask them what horsenality the horse is? with a good aproach a dialogue could be had that you could actually gain more fact about the situation you are watching, rather than a lump sum assumption. not everything is as it seems.

here is the chart for your viewing, it is on thier website

http://files.parelli.com/HorsenalityChart.pdf

:cool:
 
There are people with "carrot sticks" on my clinic, in all sorts of colours. To be honest, if someone came up to them and asked what horsenality their horse is they would probably fall over laughing. So just be careful that you're approaching a Parelli student if you do that.
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As far as I'm conerned the intelligent thing to do is keep a weanling out of your personal space before it gets any bigger and stronger. No rocket science there.
 
Tinypony said:
There are people with "carrot sticks" on my clinic, in all sorts of colours. To be honest, if someone came up to them and asked what horsenality their horse is they would probably fall over laughing. So just be careful that you're approaching a Parelli student if you do that.
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that's exactly my point:eek:

you cannot judge a horseperson by the color of thier stick:cool:
 
Why do parelli disciples consider others anti???? do they not recognise challenge over such concrete beliefs??? why all this new language that nobody else uses, ie; horseenality??? is it in the oxford dictionary??? I think not. Where is the common sense???
 
vandypip said:
Why do parelli disciples consider others anti???? do they not recognise challenge over such concrete beliefs??? why all this new language that nobody else uses, ie; horseenality??? is it in the oxford dictionary??? I think not. Where is the common sense???
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Ummm Vandypip, now come on, I am actually not going to stand by and accept this. I am sure that there are plenty of things that you say in your daily life that others would not understand but has a meaning to you and would not be found in the dictionary. I have so many words that mean things in my family that to outsiders are gobbledigook, and yet they have developed due to a relationship based on trust and history between my family. No, horsenaility is not a term found in the oxford english dictionary, but neither would neddy or ponio, both used on this forum by many, even though some complain, and yet we know what the term means, but if I said it to my friends who dont have horses they would look at me like i am an idiot (well they do that anyway but thats another story). Horsenality is a term used between a group of people who all have an understanding of that term and know the meaning, it is harmless.
 
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Fair comment bay beasty. BUT if we don't share the same sentiments we are all considered anti!! which is utter C**P. Do parrelians el al think that the average person interested in equine welfare are failing unless they engage in baby talk???
 
bay_beasty said:
I personally, after reading this post, and some of the other post, but cant read it all. I have come to the conclusion that judging someone on one thing generally results in a poor judgement made. I.e. I am not a parelli-ite and don't really like Pat or Linda very much, however, T n C has opened my eyes a bit more, and reading into some of her posts I realise that her purpose for following the parelli route was not for profit, fame, glory and boasting, but because she wanted to get the best relationship out of her horse(s) as possible and this is the way she thought she could achieve this. Although its not the way I would choose, as I have found that in the past, esp so with my late Dougal, I had a brilliant, very trusting relationship with no carrot sticking involved, but some stern words and some tellings not askings and a great deal of trust, which was reciprocated, I can understand, why people would choose parelli.

Back to my point, to judge T n C purely on the fact she does Parelli, is as arrogant and rude as some people think Parellis are to them. I have changed my opinion on Parelli, and will from now on be looking at the person, not the label. I am a christian and I would hope that people would not make assumptions on that fact and get to know who I am first. I think T n C has done a brilliant thing here, opening calm, friendly and necessary discussion about Parelli. You can see how my attitude has changed through the post, it is obvious.
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Awww thank you. you are right, not for profit, fame, glory or boasting.

nor is that my reason for this thread. it honestly was just an experiment to see if it was infact possible to help people to see that you cannot judge a book by the cover. nor can you judge the student based soley by the teacher, nor by thier peers. we really shouldn't judge anyone. let those who live in glass houses throw the first stone, or what ever the saying is;)
so if this can be achieved here, during such a volotile moment, then surely it can be achieved in the quiet moments in our own yards. I hope parelli students are taking notice of the possibility for change. though based on our forum i say not.:(

I have to say that we are all individual, and within the parelli student body, not everyone has had the means within which to purchase all the materials either. everyone is doing thier best to make due with what they can afford. we even do dvd sharing, with total strangers, swaping one set for another, and returning when done.

those of us with more experience, do what we can to help each other out, and we have an AWESOME support system with our savvy forum. post a querry and rest assured you will get help. we are not allowed to give training advice, but can share 'this is what happende to me, and what I did and how it worked out" kinda thing.

:cool:
 
Not by all Parellians. I agree some do treat non parelliians as idiots and patronise them, but this post has shown the exact opposite of that. Yes T n C has used these terms, but she is a very experienced parelli user and I expect these terms roll right off her tongue without her noticing.

I am christian and will sometimes talk to other christians not from my church and accidentally use terms that are common in my church, and yet they have no idea what I am talking about. it is not because I want to belittle and patronise them, it is because in the heat of conversation I forget.
 
baymareb said:
This has been mentioned before but I think it bears mentioning again. When a method is marketed to inexperienced people, it makes sense to make it very easy to use and very hard to make terrible mistakes. Whacking a horse in the face with a clip seems to me a mistake that would be bad to make. However, if it's something that requires a lot of skill to do correctly, it seems a poor set-up for those novices.

I don't have any objection to using a well-timed smack to correct a horse but I am extremely careful about aiming it at the face. I also want far more precision in any correction that I use than I could get from swinging a rope with a metal clip on it from a distance, especially when it is admitted that it takes a great deal of skill to do it properly.

This is an interesting thread because it is nice to read some explanations from a Parelli person that are not either defensive or simply "you don't understand." Ultimately however, it has not convinced me of any real value to the method as opposed to any other. In fact, I see some distinct disadvantages, one of which is the confusion that results when a horse trained with Parelli methods is handled by someone who does not use those same methods.

For instance, when I lunge my mare, I expect her to stop on the circle rather than turn to face me which it seems is the norm in Parelli training. Most people know ask their horse to back by pressing a hand on their chest and saying "back," not by shaking the lead at them. Etc. That method works fine and I see no real need for a change in it. I'm not sure what the advantage is to having a horse back when you wiggle a rope at it as opposed to simply asking it to do so.

Not to say there aren't good ideas among all the other stuff but I've not seen enough to convince me that I need to change my whole approach to horse handling. And the good things I've been able to glean are the common sense approaches I've seen used in so many other methods.
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i have adressed the novice + wiggle wiggle, snap in the face in another post.

but this is were I would like parelli/nh students to take notice. here we have someone who has listened to a well reasoned explanation, and nicely responded with

"ok that's good for you, but it's not the way for me"

this should be good enough. other people are reasonable, and capable of listening and making up thier own minds. this is where all too often the 'well then you dont understand" gets tossed into the mix. it seems full well to me that she does, and while not fully, it is enough for her to have made an informed descision. does this mean that she cares not about her relationship with her horse. NO and it is ludicras to think so. not every one obtains a good relationship the same way. at the end of the day, if we are all happy with ourselves and our horses that is all that matters. not the manner in which you choose to obtain it.

as for horses being handled by non parelli people and confusion. of course there is some confusion, as there is when we handle a non NH horse, but who's to say which one is right. we both have the same thing to say. neither is wrong. neither right. it is what it is.

but a well trained horse is not ruined by different methods, and can quickly be retrained, if take the time to understand first what the horse knows, and go from there. it would be well worth the effort for NH students to know some traditional methods if only to speak to a new horse in the way the horse knows, so first you can have that rapport with the horse, then slowly mold him into what you want him to be.:cool:
 
SirenaXVI said:
Firstly I have not read all of this thread but I am very impressed with TNC's measured and educated replies - thank you.

Secondly, I have never ever studied parelli, but having read the description of the 'friendly' game, I am surprised as I do this will all my youngsters:eek:
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thank you.

this is what I meant by, youd be surprised at how similar we actually are. And look you are, you just said so!;)

the friendly is nothing more than sacking out, desensitizing and so forth. it just has a name that is easy to remember.

I guess we could rename it, "common sense in a box":cool:
 
Echo Bravo said:
The thing to do is not buy any horse that has gone through the parellie training or offer 1/2 the asking price:D:D:D:D:D
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No offense, but I do take a bit of offense to that. in reality you are right, if you don't like them, don't buy them. but please don't devalue them. my horses are priceless to me. I would never offer a traditionaly trained person half the asking price simply because it was trained traditionally.

PRICELESS is say!:cool:
 
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