Assumptions...

JFTDWS

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 November 2010
Messages
20,982
Visit site
I know a few people who literally leave their horse to their own devices when hacking - it's terrifying. Horse knobs off randomly because "we always canter here", or walks in the middle of the road because "he likes to be in the middle" - and all sorts of bat guano crazy nonsense like that.

I school on hacks. I don't micro-manage - I want them to think for themselves, but I do take a contact sometimes, lateral work, etc - other times I'm on a loose rein, but if I ask for something, I expect it. If I don't get it immediately, we work on schooling the response till I do, every time. I'm quite happy to leave them to it - but if I ask them to do something, or not to do it, I expect it to happen as I want it to, and I rarely have a hack where I don't check up on some aspect of their training and build on it.

Unlike MP, I do have set periods of consistent focus during most, if not all, hacks, and I do repeat exercises - if I get a duff transition, we stop and repeat. If that means doubling back and repeating a line down a track, I will do that (I did that today actually, duff canter transition as mare was gawping at a fallen tree...). If it means going back and forth down a track repeatedly, I've done that too. Mostly, it doesn't and repetition and focus occurs during linear progress around a hack. That said, I don't have an arena at the moment, and prefer hacking to schooling in the field, so that's probably a bit influential in my decisions.
 
Last edited:

TPO

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 November 2008
Messages
9,414
Location
Kinross
Visit site
Inspired by some recent threads, I am beginning to question a few! So let's have a debate...

Be the Boss was drilled into me as a kid. Then I got interested in natural horsemanship (whatever that means) where Be The Boss was replaced with Be the Alpha. Be the one who moves the horse's feet. Which when it comes down to it looks very similar to Be The Boss. But this attitude assumes horses will learn 'respect' via having firm boundaries. Whereas maybe horses just learn that boundaries are expected if you have firm boundaries. I look at people sending their horse out on circles in round pens and think what is the horse learning from any of this? Then Be The Alpha was replaced with Be The Trustworthy Leader..... But how is that different from just being consistent, fair and communicating well?

A good horseman can go up to a horse he has never met and gain immediate compliance because of clarity of communication with good timing and feel. So why do we assume any sort of leadership role born of hours of groundwork is necessary?

Thoughts??!

I was so far down my own rabbit hole I forgot where this all started so went back to re read OP.

To go back to the Boss/Alpha stuff. I know what I think it means; to me most animals/people feel more comfortable and confident knowing what is expected of them, being treated fairly and given the tools to do what is expected of them. As such this also means that they are physically and mentally able to do what is asked of them.

When you watch a herd of horses be it in the paddock or feral becoming the boss/alpha often isnt pretty and I'm not sure why some people look to emulate that.An established herd leader can be firm and fair or can be a tyrant- I'm sure we've all worked for people at various ends of the spectrum.

My thoughts are the same with "Join Up" (trade marker, send $50 to Monty 🙄)...when horses are chased out of the herd and kept out it's pretty much a punishment (physical and mental) because as a prey herd animal being alone and ostracized is not a good place to be. The horses have their reasons for doing this and the pushed out have a lot of reasons for coming grovelling back.

So what I dont get is why we take petted and pampered Peaches who we've spent the last half hour grooming and smooshing their muzzle out to a round pen and then start chasing them around to "bond". Peaches ain't got a friggin clue as to why she is now being sent away and driven around. The session normally ends with a confused Peaches (hopefully) being caught and take back to their domesticated life. It just doesn't fit or make sense to me.

I know the likes of BB, MR and the greats like the Dorrances and Ray Hunt use similar methods but they ARE dealing (and certainly learnt by dealing) with feral horses. Literally hundreds of them that will have been feral over thousands of acres and be fluent in horse. They haven't spent their days being polished, living on a postage stamp and being domesticated to that degree.

That leads into the point about how we need hours of ground work (or are hours of ground work needed) when a good horseman can produce the goods almost immediately.

The thing is they have already put in the hours and that is why they can do it just so now.

Like driving a car, if you can drive and have held your license doe a while you can pretty much drive any car and get a feel for it. Sure if you normally drive manual and are faced with an automatic it might take a bit of adjustment and careful trial but your foundation is solid. It's the same with horses, when you're working hundreds annually it doesn't take long to learn to read them and be able to transfer those skills.

Ditto cattle, you can learn to read them (sometimes a fractured wrist and cracked ribs can help speed up that process!!), same with dogs, chickens (apparently the easiest animals to do join up with and are used for training feel into people??) etc etc

So yes a good horseman can make an immediate impression but they will ways have put the hours in to get to that point.
 

TPO

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 November 2008
Messages
9,414
Location
Kinross
Visit site
The hacking thing makes me think of a previous post by AE about how little we expect/how much we accept of our horses.

We've probably all done (and will definitely know a frequent offender) a version of "not today Satan" when you know that riding in that corner of the school/hacking past that falling bag/bothering to enter the ring just isnt worth it on that day - pick your battles and all that. It's when it becomes "he doesn't like that corner so we avoid it" that the issue grows and seeps into other areas. He always jogs on the way home, he doesn't like that verge, cows scare him, hes spooky, so on and on and on...

Some horses have jobs. Back in the day Native Americans were galloping about bare back using only their seat/leg/weight aids to guide their horses as they fired off arrows. From the days of yonder to the present day horses are used to muster, rope and doctor cattle. Cowboys need a horse that knows it job so that s/he can get on with theirs. Horses who deal with charging cattle, galloping herds of feral horses, snakes, choppers, creeks, crocs, all weathers, sheer cliffs etc and Peaches doesn't like a plastic bag so will spook, spin and p off!

I dont think horses should be micro managed and JFTD-WS has described it spot on as to you ask you get and horse keeps doing as asked off that one said until a new instruction is given.

Again, not an overnight thing so "proper" training has to be done at some point to make these enjoyable to hack horses.

I think the bottom line is that there are no short cuts and you'll get what you're prepared to accept with the disclaimer that you get out what you put in.

Sometimes that means that we aren't good enough/dont know enough to be able to put the good stuff in and I guess that is why we do question things, look for help/opinions, try to find good trainers and have random spiralling brain dump threads like this? 😬
 

silv

Well-Known Member
Joined
10 April 2002
Messages
2,285
Location
new zealand
Visit site
I was so far down my own rabbit hole I forgot where this all started so went back to re read OP.

To go back to the Boss/Alpha stuff. I know what I think it means; to me most animals/people feel more comfortable and confident knowing what is expected of them, being treated fairly and given the tools to do what is expected of them. As such this also means that they are physically and mentally able to do what is asked of them.

When you watch a herd of horses be it in the paddock or feral becoming the boss/alpha often isnt pretty and I'm not sure why some people look to emulate that.An established herd leader can be firm and fair or can be a tyrant- I'm sure we've all worked for people at various ends of the spectrum.

My thoughts are the same with "Join Up" (trade marker, send $50 to Monty 🙄)...when horses are chased out of the herd and kept out it's pretty much a punishment (physical and mental) because as a prey herd animal being alone and ostracized is not a good place to be. The horses have their reasons for doing this and the pushed out have a lot of reasons for coming grovelling back.

So what I dont get is why we take petted and pampered Peaches who we've spent the last half hour grooming and smooshing their muzzle out to a round pen and then start chasing them around to "bond". Peaches ain't got a friggin clue as to why she is now being sent away and driven around. The session normally ends with a confused Peaches (hopefully) being caught and take back to their domesticated life. It just doesn't fit or make sense to me.

I know the likes of BB, MR and the greats like the Dorrances and Ray Hunt use similar methods but they ARE dealing (and certainly learnt by dealing) with feral horses. Literally hundreds of them that will have been feral over thousands of acres and be fluent in horse. They haven't spent their days being polished, living on a postage stamp and being domesticated to that degree.

That leads into the point about how we need hours of ground work (or are hours of ground work needed) when a good horseman can produce the goods almost immediately.

The thing is they have already put in the hours and that is why they can do it just so now.

Like driving a car, if you can drive and have held your license doe a while you can pretty much drive any car and get a feel for it. Sure if you normally drive manual and are faced with an automatic it might take a bit of adjustment and careful trial but your foundation is solid. It's the same with horses, when you're working hundreds annually it doesn't take long to learn to read them and be able to transfer those skills.

Ditto cattle, you can learn to read them (sometimes a fractured wrist and cracked ribs can help speed up that process!!), same with dogs, chickens (apparently the easiest animals to do join up with and are used for training feel into people??) etc etc

So yes a good horseman can make an immediate impression but they will ways have put the hours in to get to that point.

My thoughts entirely.
 

Meowy Catkin

Meow!
Joined
19 July 2010
Messages
22,635
Visit site
Sitting on the couch? No get them to do the washing up and then tidy the kitchen. :D

flossyssire.jpg


^My grey's sire as a foal. The kitchen door was open so he went into the house and made himself at home.
 

Mule

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 October 2016
Messages
7,655
Visit site
Sitting on the couch? No get them to do the washing up and then tidy the kitchen. :D

flossyssire.jpg


^My grey's sire as a foal. The kitchen door was open so he went into the house and made himself at home.
Haha I love it:D It's cool you got a photo. Mine definitely wouldn't make himself that useful. He'd be more of a stretching out on the couch with his hooves up type:p
 

Meowy Catkin

Meow!
Joined
19 July 2010
Messages
22,635
Visit site
Yes his owner sent it to me as it's so funny. I thought that she was very quick thinking, taking the photo before shooing him back outside (the paddock is right by the house).
 

milliepops

Wears headscarf aggressively
Joined
26 July 2008
Messages
27,538
Visit site
Haha I love it:D It's cool you got a photo. Mine definitely wouldn't make himself that useful. He'd be more of a stretching out on the couch with his hooves up type:p
Millie would be nosing in all the cupboards (she has form for this) Kira would def be one of those on the sofa types, stealing all the space. Salty would be eating the flowers :rolleyes: she is ermintrude, in horse form.
 

Caol Ila

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 January 2012
Messages
7,518
Location
Glasgow
Visit site
What a good thread.

When I had my horses in Colorado in the late-90s and early-2000s, join-up was the thing. Guys who followed Monty Roberts and Pat Parelli were doing clinics everywhere, and we all learned how to move a horse's feet, how to chase it around the round pen until it joined up to you, how to maneuver it around on a long lead rope. We were told that the round pen stuff was how horses communicate with each other, and when we chased it away, we were being the "alpha mare," communicating with our horses in a way they would understand. We believed it.

Then it started being questioned. Behaviourists did studies where they would put a mare and an unrelated yearling in a round pen, to see if the mare chased the yearling until it submitted. She didn't, not in any of the trials. They did the remote-controlled car thing mentioned earlier in this thread. They observed mustangs in the American west and other populations of feral horses, like the Camargue horses in France. When horses had more or less unlimited access to space, did they chase one another around? Nope. The researchers suggested round pen training was effectively a conditioning response -- and arguably one that has its place with certain horses (i.e. feral) in certain situations, but is unnecessarily stressful for the average domestic horse who's already used to following humans.

In my own experience, my horse would follow me within half a circle of the round pen. As per the exercise, I would let her follow, then send her away again. She'd pin her ears when asked to leave. In hindsight, that was probably punishment in her mind -- she was doing the thing I wanted, then the pressure went back on for no reason the horse could understand. Luckily, horses are generally forgiving.

Not everything we learned from those NH trainers was useless. Not at all. Being able to get the horse's feet moving in any direction from the lightest of cues has always served me well. Mark Rashid says you get to their brain through their feet, and I like his methods because he's not rigid in his approach nor his theory, but adapts to the horse in front of him. And he doesn't showboat at clinic. Even when working with tough horses, he is kind and slow.

@every ride is a training ride.... I don't think it's supercilious. I think what people mean when they say this is that you shouldn't inadvertantly teach unwanted habits, or inadvertantly punish good habits. If the horse softens his jaw on a ride, soften your contact. I wish I had a pound for every rider I saw who rode with a stiff, heavy handed contact and never gave any release, no matter what the horse did (and then they wonder why the horse has all these resistance behaviours... except they don't wonder at all... they laugh it off as the horse being "cheeky." *headdesk*). Or if the horse wants to rush home after a hack, deal with it. Don't let him make that a habit. Again, I wish I had a pound for every rider who shrugged and said, "Well, he just does that."
 

milliepops

Wears headscarf aggressively
Joined
26 July 2008
Messages
27,538
Visit site
Or if the horse wants to rush home after a hack, deal with it. Don't let him make that a habit. Again, I wish I had a pound for every rider who shrugged and said, "Well, he just does that."

Oh yeah, that's a good one! there's a horse where i am, that gallops- bolts- up the road, round the bend and onto the concrete yard every day on the way home. "he just does it". Yikes!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: TPO

ycbm

Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Joined
30 January 2015
Messages
56,539
Visit site
@every ride is a training ride.... I don't think it's supercilious. I think what people mean when they say this is that you shouldn't inadvertantly teach unwanted habits, or inadvertantly punish good habits. If the horse softens his jaw on a ride, soften your contact. I wish I had a pound for every rider I saw who rode with a stiff, heavy handed contact and never gave any release, no matter what the horse did (and then they wonder why the horse has all these resistance behaviours... except they don't wonder at all... they laugh it off as the horse being "cheeky." *headdesk*). Or if the horse wants to rush home after a hack, deal with it. Don't let him make that a habit. Again, I wish I had a pound for every rider who shrugged and said, "Well, he just does that."


I agree with your whole post, but this explains things in a way I agree with. It's a different view, I think, than one which says that you should be schooling or improving or training a horse on every hack Though it may simply be a case of different people's interpretation of a particular word.

I also think it's possible for experienced enough riders on well trained horses to ride through the countryside for the pure pleasure and stress relief of it without doing any damage and without consciously attempting not to punish good habits or reward bad ones. I don't really see the point of equating examples of sheer bad horsemanship, which we all see all the time, with being able to ride in a carefree manner. The two are worlds apart.

.
 

Ambers Echo

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 October 2017
Messages
9,966
Visit site
The hacking thing makes me think of a previous post by AE about how little we expect/how much we accept of our horses.

We've probably all done (and will definitely know a frequent offender) a version of "not today Satan" when you know that riding in that corner of the school/hacking past that falling bag/bothering to enter the ring just isnt worth it on that day - pick your battles and all that. It's when it becomes "he doesn't like that corner so we avoid it" that the issue grows and seeps into other areas. He always jogs on the way home, he doesn't like that verge, cows scare him, hes spooky, so on and on and on...

Some horses have jobs. Back in the day Native Americans were galloping about bare back using only their seat/leg/weight aids to guide their horses as they fired off arrows. From the days of yonder to the present day horses are used to muster, rope and doctor cattle. Cowboys need a horse that knows it job so that s/he can get on with theirs. Horses who deal with charging cattle, galloping herds of feral horses, snakes, choppers, creeks, crocs, all weathers, sheer cliffs etc and Peaches doesn't like a plastic bag so will spook, spin and p off!

This is one of the key things I took from the BB clinic. He said "you English are crazy. You ride horses who you have no control over and you dont even care because most of the time they let you". I can't tell you the number of times those words have come back to me when out with people who are telling me all the things their horses can't / won't do. Which horse has to go first. Which one needs to go on ahead before you canter. Which one can't go last at a XC clinic as he can't be left behind etc etc.

Sometimes people are just working through issues and managing things safely in the meantime but at other times there seems to be a belief that the ways the horse it today is how he just is! As opposed to it being a training issue.
 

Ambers Echo

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 October 2017
Messages
9,966
Visit site
So what I dont get is why we take petted and pampered Peaches who we've spent the last half hour grooming and smooshing their muzzle out to a round pen and then start chasing them around to "bond". Peaches ain't got a friggin clue as to why she is now being sent away and driven around. The session normally ends with a confused Peaches (hopefully) being caught and take back to their domesticated life. It just doesn't fit or make sense to me.

Totally agree with this too. After reading Montys book many years ago I tried join up with my then pony. Almost as soon as I started I began to regret it as my pony appeared to basically be completely confused. " What are you doing? What did I do?". He then jumped out of the arena and bogged off. Sensible pony. Took a while to restore his trust in me. After that i decided I would never again try a technique without being clear about and in agreement with the underlying reasons. Which does mean spending time in rabbit holes but that's better than uncritical acceptance of techniques based on spurious concepts.
 

Pearlsasinger

Up in the clouds
Joined
20 February 2009
Messages
44,730
Location
W. Yorks
Visit site
@every ride is a training ride.... I don't think it's supercilious. I think what people mean when they say this is that you shouldn't inadvertantly teach unwanted habits, or inadvertantly punish good habits. If the horse softens his jaw on a ride, soften your contact. I wish I had a pound for every rider I saw who rode with a stiff, heavy handed contact and never gave any release, no matter what the horse did (and then they wonder why the horse has all these resistance behaviours... except they don't wonder at all... they laugh it off as the horse being "cheeky." *headdesk*). Or if the horse wants to rush home after a hack, deal with it. Don't let him make that a habit. Again, I wish I had a pound for every rider who shrugged and said, "Well, he just does that."
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/assumptions.776914/page-4#roVdLKkQ5i7ZdbxL.99




Thank you, CI, you have explained exactly what I meant, so much better than I did. I think half the time riders don't realise what effect tehy are having on their horses - and I don't mean riders like mp, who are competing at PSG!
 

Caol Ila

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 January 2012
Messages
7,518
Location
Glasgow
Visit site
This is one of the key things I took from the BB clinic. He said "you English are crazy. You ride horses who you have no control over and you dont even care because most of the time they let you". I can't tell you the number of times those words have come back to me when out with people who are telling me all the things their horses can't / won't do. Which horse has to go first. Which one needs to go on ahead before you canter. Which one can't go last at a XC clinic as he can't be left behind etc etc.

Sometimes people are just working through issues and managing things safely in the meantime but at other times there seems to be a belief that the ways the horse it today is how he just is! As opposed to it being a training issue.

Buck and I agree. As an expat, one thing that stands out to me like a swollen, sore thumb is how endemic this attitude is -- how the horse is today is how he always is. Back in the US, at least at my old barn, people believed even the most feral, anxious horse could be improved with training and taught ground manners. Only two days ago, my horse was tied in front of the barn, and a fellow livery walked past and commented, "Wow. She just stands there. Mine would be all over the place." It took all my willpower to not say, "Yeah, it's called f&*('in training." I think what I said was, "Yeah, she knows it's her job." Sort of the same thing, but nicer. I get it all the time.

I also think it's possible for experienced enough riders on well trained horses to ride through the countryside for the pure pleasure and stress relief of it without doing any damage and without consciously attempting not to punish good habits or reward bad ones. I don't really see the point of equating examples of sheer bad horsemanship, which we all see all the time, with being able to ride in a carefree manner. The two are worlds apart.

Aye, I agree. I think often people unconsciously punish good habits and reward bad ones, but an experienced enough, sensitive rider won't do either, even when slopping along on a long rein. When people say, 'you're always training,' I don't think it's directed, or should be directed, at good riders who are perfectly aware of how they effect the horse.
 

Ambers Echo

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 October 2017
Messages
9,966
Visit site
My dad has been quite clear in telling me that riding horses is cruel, i think that's at the root of why they didn't help me with my ponies when I was a kid and why he's never shown any interest in the competitions we've done etc.

Perhaps this is a self serving rationalisation but I like to think horses are happier with a job to do. I think they are like us - on any given day we might prefer to chill with our mates than work but we are happier with a job than without one. Horses in the wild have to survive and procreate. All that is taken away from a domesticated horse so isnt life as a lawn mower a bit dull and unsatisfying for a young/working age fit horse?
 

milliepops

Wears headscarf aggressively
Joined
26 July 2008
Messages
27,538
Visit site
Perhaps this is a self serving rationalisation but I like to think horses are happier with a job to do. I think they are like us - on any given day we might prefer to chill with our mates than work but we are happier with a job than without one. Horses in the wild have to survive and procreate. All that is taken away from a domesticated horse so isnt life as a lawn mower a bit dull and unsatisfying for a young/working age fit horse?

from outside the rabbit hole I can see your POV.
However, I have one young/working age lawnmower who is literally the happiest horse I have ever had the pleasure of knowing.
I thought she'd get bored being up on the yard where they are stabled part of the time and only have smallish paddocks. But she is bright, engaged with the world, interested in your company but happy to do her own thing... she definitely doesn't miss having a job. it's a relief in a way, but puts me back into the rabbit hole in another way!
 

TPO

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 November 2008
Messages
9,414
Location
Kinross
Visit site
What a good thread.

When I had my horses in Colorado in the late-90s and early-2000s, join-up was the thing. Guys who followed Monty Roberts and Pat Parelli were doing clinics everywhere, and we all learned how to move a horse's feet, how to chase it around the round pen until it joined up to you, how to maneuver it around on a long lead rope. We were told that the round pen stuff was how horses communicate with each other, and when we chased it away, we were being the "alpha mare," communicating with our horses in a way they would understand. We believed it.

Then it started being questioned. Behaviourists did studies where they would put a mare and an unrelated yearling in a round pen, to see if the mare chased the yearling until it submitted. She didn't, not in any of the trials. They did the remote-controlled car thing mentioned earlier in this thread. They observed mustangs in the American west and other populations of feral horses, like the Camargue horses in France. When horses had more or less unlimited access to space, did they chase one another around? Nope. The researchers suggested round pen training was effectively a conditioning response -- and arguably one that has its place with certain horses (i.e. feral) in certain situations, but is unnecessarily stressful for the average domestic horse who's already used to following humans.

In my own experience, my horse would follow me within half a circle of the round pen. As per the exercise, I would let her follow, then send her away again. She'd pin her ears when asked to leave. In hindsight, that was probably punishment in her mind -- she was doing the thing I wanted, then the pressure went back on for no reason the horse could understand. Luckily, horses are generally forgiving.

Not everything we learned from those NH trainers was useless. Not at all. Being able to get the horse's feet moving in any direction from the lightest of cues has always served me well. Mark Rashid says you get to their brain through their feet, and I like his methods because he's not rigid in his approach nor his theory, but adapts to the horse in front of him. And he doesn't showboat at clinic. Even when working with tough horses, he is kind and slow.

@every ride is a training ride.... I don't think it's supercilious. I think what people mean when they say this is that you shouldn't inadvertantly teach unwanted habits, or inadvertantly punish good habits. If the horse softens his jaw on a ride, soften your contact. I wish I had a pound for every rider I saw who rode with a stiff, heavy handed contact and never gave any release, no matter what the horse did (and then they wonder why the horse has all these resistance behaviours... except they don't wonder at all... they laugh it off as the horse being "cheeky." *headdesk*). Or if the horse wants to rush home after a hack, deal with it. Don't let him make that a habit. Again, I wish I had a pound for every rider who shrugged and said, "Well, he just does that."

I think this sort of surmises the ethos; Do the best you can until you know better then do better (paraphrased)

Some, maybe the majority, try different approaches with good intentions. Some things can only be learnt the hard way and sometimes all the information isn't available to make a fully informed decision. I find it really easy to beat myself up repeatedly about the mistakes that happened when I simply didn't know any better or different and did think that I was doing the best that I could with my base of knowledge at that time. Like @Caol Ila said a lot better than I can there things to be learnt from everyone and every system - even if it is what not to do!

What I probably find most frustrating (and that's a tough call because it's a long list ha ha) is the "I know enough" mentality of so many. I appreciate that not everyone is a book geek or likes watching lots of videos but it's the "I've had horses for 30 years..." attitude and they don't need to know any different or learn any more because "horses are still horses" but then have horses every truly been "horses" when we own and keep them? Look at how much has changed even in the past 5yrs with regards to awareness of ulcers, the need for adlib forage, kissing spine, PSSM, EMS, vitamin/mineral balancing and grass effects to name just a few. I'm sure at professional levels there have been huge advancements in keeping horses on the road at higher levels (another ethical conundrum...) too.
 

TPO

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 November 2008
Messages
9,414
Location
Kinross
Visit site
Perhaps this is a self serving rationalisation but I like to think horses are happier with a job to do. I think they are like us - on any given day we might prefer to chill with our mates than work but we are happier with a job than without one. Horses in the wild have to survive and procreate. All that is taken away from a domesticated horse so isnt life as a lawn mower a bit dull and unsatisfying for a young/working age fit horse?

See I disagree (from within the rabbit hole!). The only reason a horse is bored and stuck being a lawn mower on managed, same type grazing is because we have made it so. I seriously think we are kidding ourselves that horses enjoy being ridden/conditioned to let us ride in the way we choose etc. I think said bored horses might quite enjoy hacking nd getting out to see more of the world, some might like the atmosphere at buzzy shows and what not but I don't think in a month of Sundays a horse would ever choose to do what we do with them. Nail on metal rims, put metal in their mouths, strap things around their faces, put the hide of another dead prey animal onto theirs backs, alternate between endless circles asking for "improvement" to whatever we've thought of to train that day, putting them over fences that they WILL rattle cannons off at some point and then the fixed ones that can cause serious damage never mind the studs that can cause self inflicted damage along with stopping the mechanics of a landing causing further strains and stresses to their ligaments, tendons, muscles and joints. However while we restrict their world I think it's only fair that we make every effort to afford them different stimuli to try and keep them engaged and content in the best possible health. Heck I knew someone who could ramble on even more than me about how good the care their horses got and yet the water buckets were all disgusting and clearly hadn't been cleaned ever/in a very long time - I mean when folk can't even make time to ensure clean water daily what hope do these poor animals have really?
 

Caol Ila

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 January 2012
Messages
7,518
Location
Glasgow
Visit site
Perhaps this is a self serving rationalisation but I like to think horses are happier with a job to do. I think they are like us - on any given day we might prefer to chill with our mates than work but we are happier with a job than without one. Horses in the wild have to survive and procreate. All that is taken away from a domesticated horse so isnt life as a lawn mower a bit dull and unsatisfying for a young/working age fit horse?

A few years ago, I watched a documentary called 'The Path of the Horse,' directed by and about a woman in the US who was a hunter/jumper trainer, who wanted to find a kinder way to work with horses than standard H/J (which at its worst, can be pretty rough and unsympathetic). The documentary started with her interviewing Mark Rashid and the like, trainers who have methods for creating willing, happy ridden horse, but eventually moving on to Alexander Nevzorov. The filmmaker's revelation at the end of the documentary, after working with Nevzorov, is that we should not be riding horses at all, but pursuing spiritual connections with our horses from the ground alone. Nevzorov is a pretty out there guy. The film was clearly slanted towards a point of view and an agenda, but it did make me think a little about the ethics of riding. Not enough to stop doing it, but enough to look at my horse and ask, 'is she stressed? Does she seem unhappy with this?' The answer seemed no, so I saddled up and only felt a little guilty. Last week, I walked out onto the road outside the yard gates with my friend to watch her trot her horse up, as she was concerned about lameness. Thinking the three of us were going on a hack without her stressed my horse out!
 
  • Like
Reactions: TPO

MotherOfChickens

MotherDucker
Joined
3 May 2007
Messages
16,641
Location
Weathertop
Visit site
Perhaps this is a self serving rationalisation but I like to think horses are happier with a job to do. I think they are like us - on any given day we might prefer to chill with our mates than work but we are happier with a job than without one. Horses in the wild have to survive and procreate. All that is taken away from a domesticated horse so isnt life as a lawn mower a bit dull and unsatisfying for a young/working age fit horse?

some horse seemingly love to work-my first lusitano was one of these. I think many enjoy hacking and a good view and an awful lot of them dont mind us being on top of them and most want an easy life ie to get along. Life as a lawnmower doesnt have to be 'dull' although I also think thats an anthropomorphism. Yes, keep a horse on a flat, barish field with limited company and nothing else to do or the same view and that would be dull. Give them the sort of turn out they were made for and you'll find them quite happy (apart from the institutionilised ones). I have a 5 acre summer field, its full of banks and bluffs, burns and ruined stone walls, fallen logs, pebbly beaches and all manner of forage to browse. I've had a couple of friends say if you were going to design a field for a horse it would look like this one (although with 40ft banks, some might disagree). My ponies love it, they move around it all the time-the shape of it and the obstacles in it mean they use energy (natives dont walk up a bank, they tackle it full on) and keep moving-they can get away from flies, paddle in the burn, shelter under the beech trees. Its just a shame its not usable year round.

some of you might be interested in looking up Lucy Rees and her views on synchronicity (its not woo, its science ;) )
 

Ambers Echo

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 October 2017
Messages
9,966
Visit site
from outside the rabbit hole I can see your POV.
However, I have one young/working age lawnmower who is literally the happiest horse I have ever had the pleasure of knowing.
I thought she'd get bored being up on the yard where they are stabled part of the time and only have smallish paddocks. But she is bright, engaged with the world, interested in your company but happy to do her own thing... she definitely doesn't miss having a job. it's a relief in a way, but puts me back into the rabbit hole in another way!

Oh dear that doesn't really help. I suppose i will have to be happy with the belief that my horses are at least relatively content to be ridden. Amber puts her ears back readily and pulls very offended expressions when things are not to her liking. But never when saddle or bridle appear.
 

Caol Ila

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 January 2012
Messages
7,518
Location
Glasgow
Visit site
What I probably find most frustrating (and that's a tough call because it's a long list ha ha) is the "I know enough" mentality of so many. I appreciate that not everyone is a book geek or likes watching lots of videos but it's the "I've had horses for 30 years..." attitude and they don't need to know any different or learn any more because "horses are still horses" but then have horses every truly been "horses" when we own and keep them? Look at how much has changed even in the past 5yrs with regards to awareness of ulcers, the need for adlib forage, kissing spine, PSSM, EMS, vitamin/mineral balancing and grass effects to name just a few. I'm sure at professional levels there have been huge advancements in keeping horses on the road at higher levels (another ethical conundrum...) too.

Aye, that drives me nuts as well. Another thing I wish I had a pound for everytime I heard it. I'd be a rich woman at this rate. The winner is the livery yard owner who told me in one breath that she had horses for 30 years and knew everything, then in next breath, suggested my horse was fencewalking because, "She's too shiny and her blood must be too hot." Um, what?
 

ihatework

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 September 2004
Messages
21,345
Visit site
Perhaps this is a self serving rationalisation but I like to think horses are happier with a job to do. I think they are like us - on any given day we might prefer to chill with our mates than work but we are happier with a job than without one. Horses in the wild have to survive and procreate. All that is taken away from a domesticated horse so isnt life as a lawn mower a bit dull and unsatisfying for a young/working age fit horse?

I think that is self serving rationalisation I’m afraid.

I think horses have their own personalities, likes & dislikes, motivators etc.

No doubt in my mind that many horses love to work.
Some can take it or leave it but are naturally compliant so do it for us anyway.
Some really would prefer not to!

Something I’m always quite conscious of is if I am working a horse, is that horse doing a job it is reasonably happy & capable to do?

I think I said somewhere on a different thread that we use domesticated horses for our own gratification. We need to be very aware of that the whole time. I love Eventing (as you can probably tell), I subject my horses to it in an ideal world, because it is what I want. It is a sport that places quite a lot of demands on a horse, physically and mentally, and a heightened risk of injury and even death. I still do it.

Rabbit hole again 😜
 

Ambers Echo

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 October 2017
Messages
9,966
Visit site
It is definitely true that I have horses for my benefit not theirs! And I agree that the least I owe them is to strive for fairness, consistency and a high standard of care. Having said that, Amber gives every impression of loving XC at least. She can probably take or leave dressage!
 

JFTDWS

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 November 2010
Messages
20,982
Visit site
My Daemon was miserable when he wasn't being worked. He was happy enough in the field, in his stable, messing around with the others, but if I came in to catch something, he was always there first, trying to be the one I wanted. If I rode in the arena, he stood and watched. It made me feel terrible! I brought him back into work and he's much happier since - particularly if there are jumps involved. All mine are fairly keen to work, most of the time - but mostly they hack, so that's fairly unsurprising. If I had problems catching horses, or felt they were really reluctant to work, I would probably feel differently.
 
Top