Echo Bravo
Well-Known Member
I have a 7 year old mare that is still deciding wether she want's to be broken in yet,she will let me know at sometime.
Backing the young horse - NOT the MR way!!
- Thread starter JanetGeorge
- Start date
dafthoss
Well-Known Member
Love the way you break horses JG and if ever I had one needing breaking I'd not hesitate to send it your way. Having seen some one of yours out and about (baby rhythm) he is a lovely young lad. If only you bred small horses I'd be on my way when I next was horse shopping .
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JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
Love the way you break horses JG and if ever I had one needing breaking I'd not hesitate to send it your way. Having seen some one of yours out and about (baby rhythm) he is a lovely young lad. If only you bred small horses I'd be on my way when I next was horse shopping
Rhythm is a sweetie - but quite a BIG sweetie (his Mum is 17.1 so not surprising that he's a big boy.)
How small do you like - the mare in that video is barely 15.3 and I have a couple of 2 and 3 year olds who'll be under 16hh
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
I like JanetGeorge's methods so no arguments there, but talking about "traditional British methods" versus "traditional American methods?" As though one is considerably superior to the other? Really?
I've seen just as many badly trained horses in Britain as I have seen in the US. The methods I learned when I was trained how to start youngsters may have been more Western orientated, but they were kind, compassionate, patient, and put as good a foundation on a colt as you could want. No gadgets at all.
"Common sense" horsemanship is only common sense to people who have a thorough background in horses and a solid understanding of how their brains work and how to communicate with them. And maybe a grasp of how operant conditioning works. As they are prey animals and have a very different view of their world than us, mere "common sense" will not make a good horseman, as the novice horseman, not knowing any better, may well assume that the horse thinks like us more than it does. It annoys me when people say, "My training is just common sense." Common sense to who? To some, "common sense" would dictate not getting on the back of a 1000lbs flight animal to begin with!
Parelli is just as controversial in the States as he is here.
I've seen just as many badly trained horses in Britain as I have seen in the US. The methods I learned when I was trained how to start youngsters may have been more Western orientated, but they were kind, compassionate, patient, and put as good a foundation on a colt as you could want. No gadgets at all.
"Common sense" horsemanship is only common sense to people who have a thorough background in horses and a solid understanding of how their brains work and how to communicate with them. And maybe a grasp of how operant conditioning works. As they are prey animals and have a very different view of their world than us, mere "common sense" will not make a good horseman, as the novice horseman, not knowing any better, may well assume that the horse thinks like us more than it does. It annoys me when people say, "My training is just common sense." Common sense to who? To some, "common sense" would dictate not getting on the back of a 1000lbs flight animal to begin with!
Parelli is just as controversial in the States as he is here.
dafthoss
Well-Known Member
I'd love to know how he manages to be so cute despite being so huge
I like mine fairly small
current ones only 14.2 but when I leave uni I'll be after some thing a little larger (as well as him as he isnt going any where) but I'm only 5'2 so feel silly on any thing big. Will just be after some thing that can make horse strides out competing basically so about 15something if it rides like a big pony then that would be perfect. But would like to not have to undo some one elses mess ups next time so will be looking at some thing correctly produced from the out set to go out and have fun on.rubysmum
Well-Known Member
your methods sound lovely AND effective - i am only a numpty, but have just acquired a 5 yr old - who was backed & ridden away & has done very little since - i am happily spending a couple of weeks lunging, re-introducing tack and doing manners work but have been asked why i am not riding her yet - personally i like to set up horses to succeed, so 14/21 days of making sure that it will go well when she is ridden just seems sensible - perhaps in our super-fast culture people cannot cope with anything that does not give instant gratification
Kaylum
Well-Known Member
That's how we would back so much likey, the only thing I would say is we would be off the yard if we didn't have a riding hat and a good pair of boots on when on the ground.
Regarding the mr debate there is no reason to cause an animal pain, I don't care who you are or what your methods are. I saw a very high up BHS instructor beat a girls horse up after she had ridden it, the horse had been hoof perfect. She didn't know I was watching her I should have filmed it. She saw me afterwards and gave me some very nasty looks which I gave back, I told the owner but she didn't believe me.
Regarding the mr debate there is no reason to cause an animal pain, I don't care who you are or what your methods are. I saw a very high up BHS instructor beat a girls horse up after she had ridden it, the horse had been hoof perfect. She didn't know I was watching her I should have filmed it. She saw me afterwards and gave me some very nasty looks which I gave back, I told the owner but she didn't believe me.
Equilibrium Ireland
Well-Known Member
Preaching to the choir JG. I will say that the last 3 we've had were more like 8 weeks riding nicely but when we got them they actually didn't even know how to lead. The first week alone was learning to lead, have a schedule, and basics like grooming.
We did have one we bred ourselves in which we used to ride in from the field before she was broke in just a headcollar and rope. A Ginger TB mare of all things. But we did all the regular stuff when it was time to start her.
It's all in what you get through your door I suppose.
Terri
We did have one we bred ourselves in which we used to ride in from the field before she was broke in just a headcollar and rope. A Ginger TB mare of all things. But we did all the regular stuff when it was time to start her.
It's all in what you get through your door I suppose.
Terri
LauraWheeler
Well-Known Member
You mean you don't chase your horses round till they are to exausted to argue with you
Don't get me started on MR
I was thinking of setting up my own 'school' to. The only trouble is I do it for the good of the horse. NOT as a money making sceam
That mare looks a real sweetie. Well done you for giving her the best start in life. I hope you find her a wonderful home and she goes on to give someone many years of happyness. Keep up the good work.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
I see children make "friends" with horses all the time. They are gentle, compassionate and show LOVE & RESPECT. The horses and ponies show it back.
If you don't like the word "common sense", then I can't argue with you. I'm sorry it annoys you.
I can still hold on to my opinion that I communicate with my animals with a sense of that love and compassion. Ever since I was a child. I did not need MR or PP to show me how to communicate with my animals. That to me is common sense. It is innate and all are capable of it.
Come to think of it, thousands of caring compassionate people have come before the subject matter and produced beautiful partnerships. None needed carrot sticks or painful halters. Just time and the will to listen.
Granted, there are bad trainers everywhere, it is shame they have have so many blind followers.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
Like.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
Tallyho I have usually had good and very good relationships with my horses on the ground with no fancy equipment, just by good will patience and getting to know them etc.HOWEVER I have usually bought/handled pleasant natured horses with a non abusive background.There are some horses that are much more challenging and thats where knowledge and experience come to the fore.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
I do not doubt it. All I am saying is that NH is not the only way.
What we have to remember is that everybody's experiences are different. I believe the majority of the market going to NH demos are young and inexperienced looking for that 'natural' way. When plenty of experience exists here.
I also have had to learn as I go. I have been to see MR as I was interested. What I saw only mirrored my "English" mentors be it a little more flashy. So, I have seen with my own eyes and made my own judgement. I have not come here to criticise individuals as some have come to criticise my views.
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
I'd agree there are bad trainers in all 'schools' of horsemanship. But 'traditional' in America was pretty much the same as 'traditional' in Australia. Horses ran pretty much 'wild' on LARGE acreages with very little handling. And then the cowboys 'broke' them in - which in most cases involved roping them, getting the tack on (pretty forcefully) and riding them until they stopped bucking!!
Within those 'traditional' approaches there were people who did it better - taking time and patience. There was a chap in Oz, backing young TBs dewstined for the track, who had his own version of Join-up (rather better than MR's IMHO) - and the horses he backed were always far better behaved and easier to ride/handle than most others! MR claims his father used 'abusive' methods - but this has been strongly disputed by many who knew him well!
in the UK, much less land so horses kept closer - so quieter to start with. Early handling of foals and youngstock makes a HUGE difference. And the uses of horses - even 100 years ago - were rather different (not too many 10,000 acre stations to muster in the UK!! So generally I think it's fair to say that 'traditional' UK methods tended to be quieter and kinder than MOST in the countries where there were extensive cattle ranges to cope with.
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
You're NOT a numpty!! "Setting a horse up to succeed" is the very basis of my training philosophy!! Take a step back when there are gale force winds - that's NOT the day to introduce something new! Turn a mare out when she's ragingly in season - that's NOT the day to expect her to listen to you! You want every step to go well - give it the best chance!
eahotson
Well-Known Member
I ABSOLUTELY agree that NH is not the only way.Again it depends on your experiences.The TRADITIONAL way a few years ago was presented to me as no nonsense wack it if it doesn't behave.You get posters on here who write, I am no bunny hugger not me I have a stick and I know how to use it.So, like a lot ofpeople I was looking for kinder ways.I realize now that what was presented to me as traditional was just violent and ignorant horsemanship not traditional horsemanship.I think that there has always been educated and uneducated horsemanship.Elizabeth 1 had a horsemaster who wrote a book apparently, about horsemanship,which lasted until the early 19th century which talked much about kindness and gentleness in training horses.Of course that would only have been available to peopl ewho could afford it and could read.Not so many then.
I was interested in NH but not so much now.A lot seems a bit cultish and personality led.The best person with horses I have ever met is a guy called John Wilmott.Hugely experienced, very kind.The nearest thing I have ever found to a horse whisperer.Although he would deny that very firmly.No carrot sticks or any other fancy equipment.
A lot of novices end up in the natural horsemanship camp because its very hard to find really GOOD proffessional help and they struggle.I did for a long time but now have a fabulous instructor who has helped me so much and I am now in a happy place but I look around me and despair sometimes.
YasandCrystal
Well-Known Member
Lovely mare and lovely video. Just how backing should be imo.
I must say Monty attracted a lot of fans over that mustang backing he did and I hated every minute of it. I couldn't see any skill in hounding a horse across a desert until it was physiccally and mentally so knackered that it submitted to him. He really went down in my estimation after that. He definately has a special way with horses, I wouldn't deny that, but it's the money/marketing machine that spoils it all in the end.
I must say Monty attracted a lot of fans over that mustang backing he did and I hated every minute of it. I couldn't see any skill in hounding a horse across a desert until it was physiccally and mentally so knackered that it submitted to him. He really went down in my estimation after that. He definately has a special way with horses, I wouldn't deny that, but it's the money/marketing machine that spoils it all in the end.
AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
What a lovely mare Janet.
Please remember Alice and her big brother Little Ted have their holidays with you booked in for 2014.
Please remember Alice and her big brother Little Ted have their holidays with you booked in for 2014.
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
Am I the only one who thinks that a nervous middle aged lady who hasnt ridden for a while, is possibly not the person for a just backed 3 or 4 year old.....however well backed it is?
Cortez
Tough but Fair
You are not.....
Equilibrium Ireland
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure Janet would not sell a horse to someone if it didn't suit.
These unhandked ponies I mentioned. Two were for a client's daughter who had a bad accident and had lost all her confidence. When the father asked me how long it would take and could daughter ride, I said I don't know. I can't know that before I get started. Happy to say it only went from good to better with both ponies. Daughter has great confidence and has learned so much. It's too long to go into all the details.
Terri
These unhandked ponies I mentioned. Two were for a client's daughter who had a bad accident and had lost all her confidence. When the father asked me how long it would take and could daughter ride, I said I don't know. I can't know that before I get started. Happy to say it only went from good to better with both ponies. Daughter has great confidence and has learned so much. It's too long to go into all the details.
Terri
Ibblebibble
Well-Known Member
anyone with even half an ounce of common sense should be able to see that Janet's way of backing a horse is preferable to trying to achieve it in 10 hours or any other rigid timetable, but in MR's defence i didn't think that 10 hours was his usual routine, for a show/ experiment yes ( and i don't think that's a good idea at all) but I would be surprised if he suggested all horses should be backed this way.
As to 'traditional' it's a term which is used a lot but i often wonder exactly what people mean by it, does it depend on what generation you grew up in
I was taught the BHS way at college, (late 1980's) at that time it all seemed about appearance and looking right and doing things by the book rather than listening to the horses and going at their pace. Even the way we lunged was different, we weren't supposed to move too much, the horse was supposed to do all the work not us, now we are told to walk a small circle rather than plant ourselves in the middle. I found the BHS way stiff and unyielding, now maybe that was just the way our instructor taught it but it was that experience which made me look for alternatives later in life when i got my own horses. MR seemed to have some good ideas so that was a starting point, from there i've progressed to looking at other trainers and their ideas.
IMO if Monty and others get people to think about how they treat their horses and to look at different ideas it can only be a good thing.
As to 'traditional' it's a term which is used a lot but i often wonder exactly what people mean by it, does it depend on what generation you grew up in
I was taught the BHS way at college, (late 1980's) at that time it all seemed about appearance and looking right and doing things by the book rather than listening to the horses and going at their pace. Even the way we lunged was different, we weren't supposed to move too much, the horse was supposed to do all the work not us, now we are told to walk a small circle rather than plant ourselves in the middle. I found the BHS way stiff and unyielding, now maybe that was just the way our instructor taught it but it was that experience which made me look for alternatives later in life when i got my own horses. MR seemed to have some good ideas so that was a starting point, from there i've progressed to looking at other trainers and their ideas.
IMO if Monty and others get people to think about how they treat their horses and to look at different ideas it can only be a good thing.
Mongoose11
Well-Known Member
I read from the initial post that the lady was nervous as had hardly ridden for six months after losing her own. Bound to be nervous after a break but the fact that she once had her own until recently suggests she may have the appropriate experience? Just 'getting back in the saddle' nerves perhaps?
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
My point is that Monty Roberts and Pat Parelli are not indicative of all the kinds of training happening in the US. First of all, it's a big country. Really big. Riding on the East Coast probably has more in common with riding here. In the West, while there is indeed a tradition of taking rank horses off the range and riding the buck out of them, there is also one of training them as compassionately and painlessly as possible. Then as now, it depends on the people. Also, Janet's comment about how there was little in the way of early handling of youngsters does not really reflect the way most domestic horses in the US live now. Unless you adopt a mustang from the BLM, chances are most young horses will have received handling from birth, same as in the UK. Janet's video is lovely to watch (ingenious using the cavesson by the way -- next time I back a youngster, I am borrowing that idea), while the other day I saw people riding their green four year old, hauling its face off for a good 45 minutes, as it was nervous and jiggy. I wish its owners would start looking at Roberts' methods, or anyone, which would at least indicate that they recognise something isn't working and are interested in exploring different methods and changing something. I personally don't think Roberts and Parelli exemplify at all what works well with methods which get labeled as "natural horsemanship," but for someone coming from the "whack him, kick him" school of thought, it's a start.
As Parelli and Roberts have done the best marketing, there as well as here, I suppose one can get the impression of how horse training in the States is, but it's only an impression. There are as many methods and variations on methods as people. Americans would be horrified to find out that Brits think Parelli = "traditional" American horse training methods!
However, I think they've found and exploited a gap in the market. So many people without much horse knowledge get horses and there are far more lost owners than good trainers, so they go to the books, youtube videos, and DVDs of these guys who are more available and widely known than other trainers might be. Perhaps it depends on where you are, as well. Where I learned to ride, you couldn't get out of bed without stepping on knowledgeable horsemen and women, so it was full of opportunities to learn. This is not the case in every geographical location and in many places, there seems to be a vacuum.
jools123
Well-Known Member
Luci07
Well-Known Member
Actually I don't agree with you. I am lucky enough to see a lot of babies coming through our yard and I have seen some who have actually been easy enough to have a more novicey person sitting on them once they are settled in their work. Also I know quite a few older people, myself included who are competent amateurs but not as gung ho as we once were. My own horse was pretty much at the same stage as Janets mare and once I had assured myself he was sane (!) I was happy to get on and he has been a roaring success. Conversly there have been babies who you would think would be easy and yet have been very tricky!
Bikerchickone
Well-Known Member
Gorgeous mare and a really lovely video of her working. If only I'd seen your videos before my girl was backed. We didn't think to use a cavesson as well as a bridle and are now working very hard to get her to learn to work correctly. Luckily we've taken everything really slowly so she's a pleasure to work with and a very willing temperament helps. She's part ID too so maybe that's it!
Please post more videos!
Please post more videos!
twisteddiamond
Well-Known Member
this was how i picked it up
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
Luci - while im not necessarily disagreeing with you, I have started many, many young horses and one thing that you find is that the vast majority are very quiet to start with. It's 6 months down the line when they start to find their feet a bit that things start to go wrong, and you really do need, IMO, to be an experienced confident rider to have a young horse.
I've lost count of the amount of times I've heard someone say their just backed horse is 'lazy' or 'very steady' 'calm' etc, when in fact young horses are often just like that while they're sizing up the situation.
Particularly if they have been backed well, as I'm sure Janets are.
But then, I wouldn't have thought the next step was to give it to a 'nervous, middle aged lady who hadn't ridden for a while.'
Particularly the 3 year old!!
I'm not questioning anyones methods, but I must confess that this was my first thought when reading OP, amazed no one else seemed to think so.
Imagine if it had been the other way round, and the 'nervous, middle aged lady' had posted to say they were thinking of buying a just backed 3yo?
Probably would have been different responses....
I've lost count of the amount of times I've heard someone say their just backed horse is 'lazy' or 'very steady' 'calm' etc, when in fact young horses are often just like that while they're sizing up the situation.
Particularly if they have been backed well, as I'm sure Janets are.
But then, I wouldn't have thought the next step was to give it to a 'nervous, middle aged lady who hadn't ridden for a while.'
Particularly the 3 year old!!
I'm not questioning anyones methods, but I must confess that this was my first thought when reading OP, amazed no one else seemed to think so.
Imagine if it had been the other way round, and the 'nervous, middle aged lady' had posted to say they were thinking of buying a just backed 3yo?
Probably would have been different responses....
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
You and me both!
BUT - she is a very experienced rider - and a sympathetic and sensitive one. She was nervous because she hadn't ridden for quite a while and because she knew she was on a just backed horse who MIGHT have done anything. At the end of 20 minutes on the mare, she was grinning like a Cheshire Cat! She is coming back next week - and probably the week after - because that's how long SHE will take to decide between the two - and how long I will take to decide it's a suitable match.In fact the chestnut filly's full sister was sold to a rider who had TOTALLY lost her confidence trying horses - she had tried 35!!! More than half of them had scared her witless - and the rest were not as described. She got on the 3 year old filly in a half-frozen arena - and the grin took 10 minutes to arrive - then she hacked her out and found she WAS bomb-proof in traffic. That 3 year old is 5 now - with same owner - and it's still a total love affair! She regularly posts on my Facebook page about how wonderful Jolene is.
A PROPERLY brought up and started youngster is often more suitable than the vast majority of older horses - as long as the rider is competent and has good back-up! I would NEVER sell a horse to ANY rider unless I was confident it was a good match - and I've only got it wrong once (with a 5 year old - who napped in his new home and owner didn't smack his bum sharply for it. So the little sod escalated (he WAS out of a TBx pony mare!) I took him back for a full refund.