Backing the young horse - NOT the MR way!!

[eahotson]

I went to a Monty Roberts demo where they backed a previously unridden horse.Monty said that people then ask him if the horse is ready to be ridden away and he said NO.I did think at the time, well why do it then? But hey ho.

 

[Pale Rider]

Bit egotistical there Janet, be careful, it's hard not to believe your own hype.

 

[RuthM]

Exactly RuthM - almost every day there are threads from people wanting to back their own horse and asking hows and whys! A video gives SOME idea of just one stage - and it's very boring when there's no chasing around a round pen or wild bucking. Hopefully a few people will have got some ideas from this one of simple things which a lot of people haven't thought of yet - the use of the cavesson to help teach steering and stopping without risking damage to the horse's mouth, the use of the person on the ground to help teach 'forward' to the legs etc.

On this we must differ. I had a gutfull for re-breaks after lone attempts at it. I think using professionals with dozens of horses under their belt and the reputation to match is vastly underated. I'd ban bloody DVDs and demos - the 'do not try this at home' is a pathetic disclaimer to prevent legal action and nowt but a profound idiot fails to be aware that many will try this at home, many. A farrier is paid to shoe a horse, very few believe that by virtue of radically different experience they are equipped, in many ways the same is true of breaking, it is different and I think it takes years to learn, years with endless different horses and a fine tutor. If you said that you'd nail your own coffin no matter who much you might hate to have 'extra business' or how happy you might be with what you have already. My old gaffa never advertised, and wouldn't have advertised even for free.

I'm fortunate to have the dignity to post under my own first name, I was a groom, ergo invisible to 95% of the horse world, my name is worth little except to me. I would not and never will name the yard I worked for, because they are still friends and there's nothing more spooky than finding yourself talked about by a friend publicly - just ewww!

The above gives me the freedom to say that the frustration felt by those doing the slog I know to be extreme, and how, if not as you have done, can it be expressed? Without a name (in many ways rightfully) no-one would listen to a jot I could say but if you have that background you equally get gagged.

If the pro's are disallowed to speak then it gives showmen free rein to persuade without dissent. Heaven help us.

 

[Pale Rider]

Safe to ride, Janet, I understand that these horses are only started by MR, no claims being made that they are safe. As I understand it this is just the start of their education and they are brought on over the months and years.
I think saying an in backed horse is safe to ride in 6 to 8 weeks, for a novice rider is a far bigger claim.

 

[tristar]

mrs george often comes across a bit like she's advertising, but i don't see how she can separate showing what she does and somehow seeming to promoting her professional work, why not?

she often takes the time to answer people's questions in various threads without judgement and offers effective ideas whatever the subject.

i think the video clip is shows a young horse working calmly and its only by seeing clips like this that a lot of people who are'nt on prof yards will ever begin to understand what it can be like, also it must be in the interests of horses welfare to put vidoes like this on here.

 

[eahotson]

Safe to ride, Janet, I understand that these horses are only started by MR, no claims being made that they are safe. As I understand it this is just the start of their education and they are brought on over the months and years.
I think saying an in backed horse is safe to ride in 6 to 8 weeks, for a novice rider is a far bigger claim.

Well then, why didn't Monty EXPLAIN.You see I am, like a lo t of people, quite novice especially about backing and breaking horses.If I had been thinking (perish the thought) about breaking my own I could have come away with some very strange ideas.If you are talking to novices you have to EXPLAIN a lot more, not assume knowledge.He should have said Over the next few weeks the owner will have to do the following and give advice.Instead of which, basically he just said, look how much faster I can do it than your traditional breakers.And what was the point of doing it at the demo really? Loading issues and some stuff I can understand, but not that.I like some of the stuff that Kelly does/says and respect her as a good alround horsewoman.I don't think Janet is advertizing for what its worth.I am sure that there are people up and down the country backing horses in much the same way.She was just trying to show the difference between Montys methods and, for want of a better word, the more traditional way.
I agree I would have reservations about a newly broken horse for a novice/nervous person but if the horse was a genuine one and they had VERY good back up from a genuinely good person (which usually costs a lot of money)then I guess it could work.

 

[RuthM]

Safe to ride, Janet, I understand that these horses are only started by MR, no claims being made that they are safe. As I understand it this is just the start of their education and they are brought on over the months and years.
I think saying an in backed horse is safe to ride in 6 to 8 weeks, for a novice rider is a far bigger claim.

What? In reality around 30% of the horse owning world who think they are amazing are ruddy useless. Every single breaking yard HAS TO repeatedly idiot proof horses within 6 to 8 weeks because people will not pay for more, and they have to do so again and again and again. A good reputation is not 90% success - if one out of ten went wrong afterwards the person would be ripped to hell and gone. 95% is not enough one in twenty wouldn't cut it either! A good yard may have around 5 in privately owned at any one time, 3 to 4 of which will be ridden at home by solid riders but it's a fact of life that the other one or two belong to people who are rubbish and have no clue they are rubbish.

It's not a grand claim at all, it is every day life in the real world and without those willing to dig in and deal with it the horses owned by fruitloops, grown up brats and crackpots wouldn't even get a basic good backing.

 

[Pale Rider]

I think you'll find its more like 70 per cent are ruddy useless. Lol.

 

[RuthM]

I think you'll find its more like 70 per cent are ruddy useless. Lol.

Then, surely, one must accept my point was wholly valid. It's not a big claim, it's a mundane reality.

 

[Pale Rider]

I do take your point, but, how does a horse feel about being made idiot proof.
I know so many who say, "i have to do this, because that's what will happen"

I've been down this route, and keep having to turn people away is no way to make any money. We all have to eat.

 

[Pale Rider]

I've started hundreds of horses, and all this, I can do it in 2hrs, 10hrs, a week, or 10 weeks is balls,
It takes as long as it takes, they are all different, and the majority not difficult, thank goodness.

Once started, it's the bringing on that can make a horse or turn it into a lifetime of pain.

 

[Tinypony]

I've started hundreds of horses, and all this, I can do it in 2hrs, 10hrs, a week, or 10 weeks is balls,
It takes as long as it takes, they are all different, and the majority not difficult, thank goodness.

Once started, it's the bringing on that can make a horse or turn it into a lifetime of pain.

Yes. Agree. Although thinking about it, the way I've seen some people muck up the very early stages I guess the pain can start even before it has a saddle on it's back.

Oh, and I don't consider gloves to be essential safety wear either.

Arguments above for Janet being allowed to post about what she does sound remarkably similar to those expressed in support of Kelly posting. In fact, I'd argue that Kelly is more famous than Janet, so she had even less to gain by explaining how she goes about things and why she thinks it's good. Famous as Janet is (!) I hadn't heard of her before seeing her post on the IHDG.

 

[Cuffey]

I've started hundreds of horses, and all this, I can do it in 2hrs, 10hrs, a week, or 10 weeks is balls,
It takes as long as it takes, they are all different, and the majority not difficult, thank goodness.

Once started, it's the bringing on that can make a horse or turn it into a lifetime of pain.

Exactly, totally agree, but also do think Monty's background was accepting that the job had to be done quickly and he looked for a better way than the traditional cowboy method of ''breaking''

 

[RuthM]

I do take your point, but, how does a horse feel about being made idiot proof.
I know so many who say, "i have to do this, because that's what will happen"

I've been down this route, and keep having to turn people away is no way to make any money. We all have to eat.

I don't think (honestly) that they are cognisant of it at all. It is just training, just reality. It doesn't change what's done, no rush for a 1hr job. The difference is probably the the point where the decision is made to get the owner on board and the advice given for what next. Again - it comes back to reality, some won't listen, some will but the point is 6/8 weeks is one hell of a lot more chances to prepare the horse for both the listeners and the pre maddonas.

Another flat, hard reality is that there are those not giving any of the above and who MUST be aware of the consequences of demos and DVDs but make a shed load of cash. If a breaking yard should turn down every horse they believe has a less than amazing owner - how much more should a showman refuse to show what they know will be copied by those they've not even met?

 

[Pale Rider]

Well, I think that the DVD is much maligned here on this forum.
No you cannot learn it all from a DVD, nor could you from a book a few years ago, but it didn't stop people reading around the subject.

No sensible person would take up a pastime like horses without some sort of instruction, I know a few numpties will try it, but there will always be the odd idiot.

I like to see what can be achieved, and how they achieve it. Like anything though, when things get competitive, horses suffer.

 

[rhino]

If someone watches a MR demo, or a PP one, or any of JG's videos, and decides that they have seen enough to replicate that at home, then that is THEIR fault.

Maybe novices shouldn't watch GP dressage, or international eventing, or showjumping, as we might think we can do that too What about watching stunts in films? Personally I generally try to avoid jumping off large buildings, or being set on fire, as I don't think I'd be terribly good at that either.

Every practitioner I have seen, of any type, has NOT said watch me for an hour and look what you can go and do! Aren't people always complaining about the expense/time taken to follow certain NH training programmes? If people are stupid enough to think that they can do something, with neither the knowledge or the experience, that is their fault, so why do we not apportion at least some of the blame at them?

 

[dafthoss]

If someone watches a MR demo, or a PP one, or any of JG's videos, and decides that they have seen enough to replicate that at home, then that is THEIR fault.

Maybe novices shouldn't watch GP dressage, or international eventing, or showjumping, as we might think we can do that too What about watching stunts in films? Personally I generally try to avoid jumping off large buildings, or being set on fire, as I don't think I'd be terribly good at that either.

Every practitioner I have seen, of any type, has NOT said watch me for an hour and look what you can go and do! Aren't people always complaining about the expense/time taken to follow certain NH training programmes? If people are stupid enough to think that they can do something, with neither the knowledge or the experience, that is their fault, so why do we not apportion at least some of the blame at them?

What?!? you mean I shouldnt enter the YP for burghley this year because I watched it on telly last year

 

[Pale Rider]

Rhino, my point exactly, but better put.

 

[rhino]

What?!? you mean I shouldnt enter the YP for burghley this year because I watched it on telly last year

Och you'll be fine

Rhino, my point exactly, but better put.

We're agreeing on something?

*goes to edit previous post*

 

[Caol Ila]

I just wish poor old Monty would stop being the straw man for a general slagging of NH-style methods. Monty is a very good example of Monty's methods. Other trainers who roughly fall into the NH category may have some similarities in what they do, but other respects they are quite different.

 

[RuthM]

I'm going to bow out, we won't agree. Perhaps you see people attempting 'join up' as rare as those that think they can enter burghley after watching it on the telly. I disagree but acknowledge there is no way to evidence my position.

I can't really add to what I've said so far, people are going to make their own mind up. I still think it would be both sad and harmful to gag dissent.

 

[Caol Ila]

I don't see anyone attempting "join-up." Most folk up my way are completely dismissive of NH-style methods.

On the other hand, I got told the other day that my riding looked "western" (in spite of a squillion years of dressage lessons) so what do I know about "English" methods.

 

[EllenJay]

And once again JG is subtly advertising her services................

She wouldn't allow it on her forum but it is fine here.

 

[JanetGeorge]

I've started hundreds of horses, and all this, I can do it in 2hrs, 10hrs, a week, or 10 weeks is balls,
It takes as long as it takes, they are all different, and the majority not difficult, thank goodness.

Once started, it's the bringing on that can make a horse or turn it into a lifetime of pain.

Now there's something we can agree on! 'Basic backing' you can often do in a few days - had a 3 year old filly I bought 7 years ago and wanted JUST backed before she went to the stallion. Day 1 - lunge, day 2 - lunge with tack on, day 3 - lay over and walk a few steps, day 4 - sit up and ride forward on the lunge in walk and trot, day 5 - hack up the drive! Then she went in foal and has been breeding beautiful babies with fab temperaments ever since. But we don't try to back THEM in 5 days (though we could) because they are going out to have ridden careers and need more time invested in the basics!

We had two last year which both took MONTHS (one nearly 5 months, the other closer to 6 months!!) Both had physical and 'mental' issues - and needed lots of physio before we could start properly and then oodles of patience. Both Warmbloods, of course! Thankfully, both had owners who were prepared to invest in their futures!

 

[JanetGeorge]

I think you'll find its more like 70 per cent are ruddy useless. Lol.

That is - IMHO - arrogant and wrong! Obviously there is a HUGE range of experiences and capabilities amongst the horse-owning public. There are a lot who have been steered in the wrong direction - or haven't had the opportunities to learn as much as they need to know - but the majority of owners who bring horses to me really CARE about their horses and getting it right!! As do the majority of people who come to me looking for horses to buy! They WANT to learn and they WANT to get it right! The minority (who think they know it all and don't want to listen or learn) just get sent packing!

 

[JanetGeorge]

Famous as Janet is (!) I hadn't heard of her before seeing her post on the IHDG.

And I got banned from there! Famous I am NOT! Older people who hunt have heard of me from my time at BFSS/Countryside Alliance (when I was a little bit infamous!), and BHS members remember me from the BHS forum, Magazine etc. when I worked there. HHO members 'know' me from 10 years of posting, and Irish Draught people have heard of me too. Outside those circles, and Saddle-up, I'm nobody!

And once again JG is subtly advertising her services................

She wouldn't allow it on her forum but it is fine here.

Aw Gee, EllenJay - did I ban you?? An enormous number of members advertise subtly on my forum - as long as they are subtle, and CONTRIBUTE to debates (rather than just plugging themselves) I turn a blind eye!

 

[Pale Rider]

Why put your 'humble opinion', its rarely that, JG, lol.

Arrogant I may be, but at least I'm not trying to wind green horses into green riders.

Neither do I think its right to keep having people back time after time to put things right.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

The problem with forums is that eventually some people start to blow their own trumpets. But when a business slags off another business, questions should be asked.

 

[JanetGeorge]

Why put your 'humble opinion', its rarely that, JG, lol.

Arrogant I may be, but at least I'm not trying to wind green horses into green riders.

Neither do I think its right to keep having people back time after time to put things right.

Who is? Certainly not me! But riders who have never brought on a youngster before HAVE to start sometime, don't they?? Just as someone who has never backed a horse before HAS to start sometime if they are to ever stand a chance of getting good at it - although they should - of course - have suitable help!! And who has "people back time after time to put things right"? Again, not me! But then not everyone works as hard as I do to put together a suitable partnership!

You're just nit-picking now Pale Rider!

 

[EllenJay]

Aw Gee, EllenJay - did I ban you?? An enormous number of members advertise subtly on my forum - as long as they are subtle, and CONTRIBUTE to debates (rather than just plugging themselves) I turn a blind eye!

No - I am very unoffensive so do not get myself banned from anywhere - I also do not do blatent advertising that is completly against T&C's.