Badminton XC thread

[RachelFerd]

tbf she put her hand up, and then got off about half a second after that clip ended. If you watch carefully after the horse baulks at the second jump, as he twists away you can see a back shoe fly off, and it’s the same leg the horse then takes the lame steps on; I really don’t think she could have reacted any faster than she did.

She was off the horse very quickly - definitely a shoe issue - think it was actually coming off just before take off at the first egg box. I don't think she could have done anything differently.

 

[Wishfilly]

I think this is an interesting comment from the eventing nation write up

When two high-profile falls happen in such quick succession, it can give the impression of a particularly brutal day of cross-country, but with its 72.5% completion rate and 62.5% clear rate, Badminton’s influence on paper was much the same as it’s always been, and by the end of the day, a rather generous six horse-and-rider combinations had come home clear and inside the time.

https://eventingnation.com/laura-colletts-reign-continues-on-dramatic-badminton-cross-country-day/

It's not just those two falls though, it's the number of horse falls/rotational falls that feels high and that people are concerned about. Would be interesting to know how that compares to previous years.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I think the bounce fall was rider error. Toledo came in too flat and fast. Nicola Wilson also rode it on 5 strides but Dubs was less extravagant over the fences so bounced through nicely. Most horses came in on 6 and then it seemed to ride ok.
The fence Nicola fell at was causing problems but I’m not sure why. But was then removed. As far as I remember, all the falls were at different fences? So I think it was a tough but fair course. The Italian rider should have pulled his horse up. I think a dq or ban for ‘riding an unfit horse’ or ‘riding a horse to exhaustion’ or something would be better than giving the responsibility to fence judges. Riders need to be penalised for poor judgement on when enough is enough. Bit subjective but so is ‘excessive use of the whip’.
Anyway just some random musings. I’m super inspired and I still love eventing! Best sport in the world.

 

[shortstuff99]

It's not just those two falls though, it's the number of horse falls/rotational falls that feels high and that people are concerned about. Would be interesting to know how that compares to previous years.

I think it is quite similar TBH. Here is a quote from 2010

There were a few horse falls, but that is — unfortunately — always going to be the reality of the sport, especially at the top level. The death of Louisa Lockwood’s mare, Desert Island, was obviously a sad low — and condolences to all her connections — but I don’t know the circumstances of the accident so I can’t comment on that.

 

[fetlock]

It's not just those two falls though, it's the number of horse falls/rotational falls that feels high and that people are concerned about. Would be interesting to know how that compares to previous years.

Though there probably have been similar years, I can't actually remember one where I've watched so many incidents that could have ended in fatalaties during the one event. Two horses involved in rotational falls I was amazed came out of those intact without broken necks, then there was the French horse, and one rider laid out flat unconscious, plus the other the horse rolled over and who was then close to being dragged. For me, it didn't feel like a "normal" year, regardless of how many went round in the time, clear or completed compared to other years.

 

[DirectorFury]

I think this is an interesting comment from the eventing nation write up

When two high-profile falls happen in such quick succession, it can give the impression of a particularly brutal day of cross-country, but with its 72.5% completion rate and 62.5% clear rate, Badminton’s influence on paper was much the same as it’s always been, and by the end of the day, a rather generous six horse-and-rider combinations had come home clear and inside the time.

https://eventingnation.com/laura-colletts-reign-continues-on-dramatic-badminton-cross-country-day/

I don’t think those stats are actually reflective of what happened today though. Normally people will get 20 pens, or have a frangible, and retire because they know they’re not in contention for a win and want to save their horses for another day. Today people were going great guns until all of a sudden horse *and* rider were laid out on the floor. I’d much rather take a 50% completion rate where the other 50% retired after 20/40/60 pens over a 72% completion rate where 20% of the non-completions had horse falls! Though judging from some replies on this thread I’m clearly just too soft.

It would be more realistic to compare the number of retirements and number of eliminations imo, and also to actually count the number of horse falls.

Edit: as AE says, the falls *were* spread out across the course. So was there not enough use of frangible fences, were qualification criteria not strict enough, etc etc? IMO what matters now is how the eventing world responds to this to try and reduce the odds of the number of horse falls happening again. Something has gone wonky in the process this year, and it’s important that we look at it objectively before someone - human or horse - dies if there’s a repeat.

 

[quiteniceforacob]

I think it is quite similar TBH. Here is a quote from 2010

There were a few horse falls, but that is — unfortunately — always going to be the reality of the sport, especially at the top level. The death of Louisa Lockwood’s mare, Desert Island, was obviously a sad low — and condolences to all her connections — but I don’t know the circumstances of the accident so I can’t comment on that.

Hmm I think the difficulty I have is does it need to be the reality of the sport? Do we need to challenge combinations to the point of exhaustion and hospitalisation? We’re all here on this forum because we love our horses, so it’s sad that it’s the non-equestrian world that’s asking questions about horse welfare. How this appears to outsiders shouldn’t be the discussion, it should be “how do we continue this sport we love, while keeping every horse and rider safe”

 

[neddy man]

THANKS EVERYONE for a super update on today's xc.

 

[SOS]

Interestingly a similar conversation was had in 1999 where the safety of eventing was reviewed for the first time ever after a spate of human deaths. One of my early memories of Burghley is the horrific death of Caroline Pratt in 2004. I still adore the sport but understand we are watching the near impossible. Does that make it more thrilling to watch? Yes for many. Does that mean it’s ethical? Potentially not.

What do people propose though? Make it easier? Make times more lenient? Don’t event?
I don’t have the answer just wondering!

 

[RachelFerd]

Hmm I think the difficulty I have is does it need to be the reality of the sport? Do we need to challenge combinations to the point of exhaustion and hospitalisation? We’re all here on this forum because we love our horses, so it’s sad that it’s the non-equestrian world that’s asking questions about horse welfare. How this appears to outsiders shouldn’t be the discussion, it should be “how do we continue this sport we love, while keeping every horse and rider safe”

1 person in hospital and one winded horse is quite a lot less drama than your average teamchase.... Not a justification, just a comment!

 

[neddy man]

BBC 2, 2pm

My paper guide says 2:15 till 4:30 on screen shows 2:30 till 4:30 so 2pm start to be safe, XC will only show till about 3:30 then the showjumping section will be showing the top 10 horses.

 

[Lexi_]

I don’t think those stats are actually reflective of what happened today though. Normally people will get 20 pens, or have a frangible, and retire because they know they’re not in contention for a win and want to save their horses for another day. Today people were going great guns until all of a sudden horse *and* rider were laid out on the floor. I’d much rather take a 50% completion rate where the other 50% retired after 20/40/60 pens over a 72% completion rate where 20% of the non-completions had horse falls! Though judging from some replies on this thread I’m clearly just too soft.

It would be more realistic to compare the number of retirements and number of eliminations imo, and also to actually count the number of horse falls.

Edit: as AE says, the falls *were* spread out across the course. So was there not enough use of frangible fences, were qualification criteria not strict enough, etc etc? IMO what matters now is how the eventing world responds to this to try and reduce the odds of the number of horse falls happening again. Something has gone wonky in the process this year, and it’s important that we look at it objectively before someone - human or horse - dies if there’s a repeat.

Yes, I’d be interested to see the variety of non-completion reasons, as well as some analysis from the experts about the course construction & design and whether they think that had any impact on a few of the falls.

To my mind, it felt about the same amount of total falls as normal, but usually there are more much rider only falls than horse falls. This year that wasn’t the case and there were a few very dramatic horse and rider rotationals in the first half of the draw which perhaps made things seem worse than they were? In other years you’d get horses leaving a leg and the result would be an uncomfortable twisting jump and the rider coming off after the fence (much like Ben Hobday did today) rather than the crashing rotationals that Nicola & Emily had. Perhaps it’s course construction? Perhaps it’s bad luck? I’m not inclined to think either of those falls were due to tired horses because they were both having fantastic rounds up till that point.

Not really sure that they could have put more frangibles on course without making every single fence out of poles. They did their jobs at several fences but you can’t have them everywhere. Perhaps it was more to do with distances/groundlines/too many efforts across the whole course that contributed more to the falls at the later combos?

Fwiw, I thought Tom’s fall was rider error. Going at that speed into a 5* bounce fence, whatever it’s made from, is only going to end in trouble.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Just seen the Oli Townend one, he didn't even check he was sound just booted him away, Rachel Blackmore got flamed for doing the same on a horse that sprawled on landing at Cheltenham, she at least had the decency to trot a few strides first.

I know he would have felt if badly unsound but...

 

[teapot]

Just my musings that I'd be considering before waving the 'too harsh' flags

- We've not had 5* eventing for the best part of three years. Unless you follow the sport properly, Luhmuhlen and Pau can actually pass most people by, both courses cause scrappy run outs, horses banking fences, twisty, turning courses, which imho aren't necessarily any more pleasant to watch. Kentucky is 4* fences on 5* lines (as per Lucinda Green), Bicton was a one off, and Maryland has only run once causing zero issues. Have people forgotten the attrition rate of Burghey 19? Results here: http://www.bdwp.co.uk/bur/19/

- Tokyo was a dressage/sj comp

- Euros were a dressage/sj comp

- Kentucky always lulls people in - there were zero horse falls last week so watching xc twice in a week, Badminton always feels worse (and I wish MJ had been at Badminton, not Kentucky).

- Badminton's meant to be the toughest course in the world - one mistake should (in theory) filter out the best of the best. You shouldn't (in theory) be making mistakes over the biggest fences in the world, it can potentially kill you (see also the mm of lenience of mistakes in F1). Tom's speed saved him and the horse in some ways as they just kept going albeit on the ground.

- It was telling the first timers had better runs or showed better horsemanship... It was the seasoned pros having issues on GOOD horses.

- I think Eric Winter said he hadn't strided too many lines, it was to be ridden by feel. Has the art of riding xc by feel been lost?

- Not one of those horses would have jumped into crowds that deep in three years, don't underestimate the impact that could have. Even riders saying I looked for my marker and couldn't see it...

- Problems spread all over the course - that's a good course and again a true 5* of having to be on it from the start box to the finish.


I thought today was a return of a sport I love, and all horses got up super quickly. The French horse was the only one I truly winced at and thought it was a goner. That fall was no fault of the course either.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Can't say Alexander Bragg came across well in that compilation either...

 

[TheOldTrout]

Is there any formal rebuke for the (French??) rider who rode his horse til it fell, exhausted? An American rider got red carded a few years ago for doing this, so surely there should be some consistency.

 

[ycbm]

I don't know much about Badminton these days but surely somebody should be watching each round on a monitor and able to call a halt if they see a horse is struggling? Fence judges see only one fence, it can't be left to them. Does this happen?

I am less and less in favour of using live animals in top level sport as I get older and reading about this Badminton has increased that.
.

 

[Steerpike]

Having just seen the clip of Oliver Townsend riding his grey over 'that' fence I'm still not liking him, he didn't seem too worried they both nearly hit the deck I found it uncomfortable viewing, I think the horse sporting community ( I say that as ALL disciplines have to do this) has to been seen to be high on welfare otherwise there will come a time in the not too distant future when we may not be able to participate in sports with our horses.

 

[J&S]

Jeez how can anything be titled “best falls and refusals”??

This was what I was shocked about.........and such very upsetting content.

 

[scats]

Having just seen the clip of Oliver Townsend riding his grey over 'that' fence I'm still not liking him, he didn't seem too worried they both nearly hit the deck I found it uncomfortable viewing, I think the horse sporting community ( I say that as ALL disciplines have to do this) has to been seen to be high on welfare otherwise there will come a time in the not too distant future when we may not be able to participate in sports with our horses.

I’d be surprised if it’s sound this morning. My horse slipped coming out the stable last year. Fairly innocuous, back legs just went as she spooked at my mum. She barely missed a stride and just carried on walking, so I thought nothing of it and loaded her for her lesson.
After about 10 minutes under saddle, despite doing everything I asked, it became apparent she wasn’t quite happy. Swishy tailed and backing off.
Ended up getting the vet out and although she was sound, the vet said she’d likely pulled herself and to give her a few days rest.
That was nothing compared to Oli’s horse, but it’s made me hyper aware of checking her after even the smallest slip.

 

[Steerpike]

I think you could be right, if it was my horse I would not put him forward for the jumping.

 

[Wishfilly]

Interestingly a similar conversation was had in 1999 where the safety of eventing was reviewed for the first time ever after a spate of human deaths. One of my early memories of Burghley is the horrific death of Caroline Pratt in 2004. I still adore the sport but understand we are watching the near impossible. Does that make it more thrilling to watch? Yes for many. Does that mean it’s ethical? Potentially not.

What do people propose though? Make it easier? Make times more lenient? Don’t event?
I don’t have the answer just wondering!

Personally, for me- given that this is the first year back after a 3 year absence, I would have maybe made the course a tiny bit easier- perhaps considered the technicality at the end, or perhaps put a few more frangible pins in at the end of the course. Maybe also made the time a tiny bit more lenient so people weren't pushing quite as hard at the end of the course.

I'd also have as @ycbm suggested one person monitoring all the footage with responsibility for pulling up tired horses or where there are welfare issues.

I'd also look at the qualification process and make sure it is adequate- although as many have said, most of the falls were experienced riders really pushing for time at the end of the course, rather than those with less experience. But maybe some of the more experienced combinations were lacking match practice over this level of course?

Just my musings that I'd be considering before waving the 'too harsh' flags

- We've not had 5* eventing for the best part of three years. Unless you follow the sport properly, Luhmuhlen and Pau can actually pass most people by, both courses cause scrappy run outs, horses banking fences, twisty, turning courses, which imho aren't necessarily any more pleasant to watch. Kentucky is 4* fences on 5* lines (as per Lucinda Green), Bicton was a one off, and Maryland has only run once causing zero issues. Have people forgotten the attrition rate of Burghey 19? Results here: http://www.bdwp.co.uk/bur/19/

- Tokyo was a dressage/sj comp

- Euros were a dressage/sj comp

- Kentucky always lulls people in - there were zero horse falls last week so watching xc twice in a week, Badminton always feels worse (and I wish MJ had been at Badminton, not Kentucky).

- Badminton's meant to be the toughest course in the world - one mistake should (in theory) filter out the best of the best. You shouldn't (in theory) be making mistakes over the biggest fences in the world, it can potentially kill you (see also the mm of lenience of mistakes in F1). Tom's speed saved him and the horse in some ways as they just kept going albeit on the ground.

- It was telling the first timers had better runs or showed better horsemanship... It was the seasoned pros having issues on GOOD horses.

- I think Eric Winter said he hadn't strided too many lines, it was to be ridden by feel. Has the art of riding xc by feel been lost?

- Not one of those horses would have jumped into crowds that deep in three years, don't underestimate the impact that could have. Even riders saying I looked for my marker and couldn't see it...

- Problems spread all over the course - that's a good course and again a true 5* of having to be on it from the start box to the finish.


I thought today was a return of a sport I love, and all horses got up super quickly. The French horse was the only one I truly winced at and thought it was a goner. That fall was no fault of the course either.

I agree with a lot of your points, about the events that have run over the past few years, the lack of crowds etc. But to me, that should have been taken into consideration when designing the course.

To some extent, riding by feel at 5* possibly has been lost if there haven't been any other courses testing it in the same way in three years? Even for experienced combinations.

Agree the French rider's fall was not the fault of the course as such, but arguably he should have been pulled up- the organisers surely do have to make some responsibility for horse welfare?

Having just seen the clip of Oliver Townsend riding his grey over 'that' fence I'm still not liking him, he didn't seem too worried they both nearly hit the deck I found it uncomfortable viewing, I think the horse sporting community ( I say that as ALL disciplines have to do this) has to been seen to be high on welfare otherwise there will come a time in the not too distant future when we may not be able to participate in sports with our horses.

I do agree it was not pleasant to watch- I guess he made a split second decision when his adrenaline would have been very high. He did seem to jump straight as soon as the hold on course was announced and was held for long enough that I'm sure he/his groom would have picked up any soundness issues present at that time.

But I do think there are multiple horses today who could have suffered really severe consequences for their rider making the wrong decision in the moment, and that to me is not acceptable.

 

[TPO]

I find it even more upsetting to see posts about a "fair course" and "love the sport" continuing when it's only by sheer luck that there were no deaths. There were sickening falls and yet, just like the Grand National, it's expected that horses will fall, get hurt or worse and "that's the nature of the sport".

There's a few well shared fb posts doing the rounds about how naysayers don't have a clue, how great badders was/is and with a reply in the comment section thats its uninformed obese people on armchairs who can't clear an 80 fence spouting rubbish. With the usual dose of "these event horses will be looked after like royalty and better than any of the naysayers horses" tripe.

As if you need to get to 5* to have any empathy for the horses or an understanding of horsemanship and even if that was the case apparently that gets shelved when it comes to the crunch. Great shop front for the sport to vilify anyone concerned about equine welfare.

Oh it's the first proper 5* in 3yrs, oh it's this, oh it's that. Must have missed the part where the horses signed up to put their necks on the line in the name of sport ? There are going to be a lot of very sore, if not permanently damaged, horses today but it's an amazing sport ya know...

 

[typekitty]

Are they broadcasting the vet inspection this morning? Was hoping to see something on Facebook.

 

[Sandstone1]

I find it even more upsetting to see posts about a "fair course" and "love the sport" continuing when it's only by sheer luck that there were no deaths. There were sickening falls and yet, just like the Grand National, it's expected that horses will fall, get hurt or worse and "that's the nature of the sport".

There's a few well shared fb posts doing the rounds about how naysayers don't have a clue, how great badders was/is and with a reply in the comment section thats its uninformed obese people on armchairs who can't clear an 80 fence spouting rubbish. With the usual dose of "these event horses will be looked after like royalty and better than any of the naysayers horses" tripe.

As if you need to get to 5* to have any empathy for the horses or an understanding of horsemanship and even if that was the case apparently that gets shelved when it comes to the crunch. Great shop front for the sport to vilify anyone concerned about equine welfare.

Oh it's the first proper 5* in 3yrs, oh it's this, oh it's that. Must have missed the part where the horses signed up to put their necks on the line in the name of sport ? There are going yo be a lot of very sore, if not permanently damaged, horses today but it's an amazing sport ya know...

Well said.

 

[HashRouge]

Having just seen the clip of Oliver Townsend riding his grey over 'that' fence I'm still not liking him, he didn't seem too worried they both nearly hit the deck I found it uncomfortable viewing, I think the horse sporting community ( I say that as ALL disciplines have to do this) has to been seen to be high on welfare otherwise there will come a time in the not too distant future when we may not be able to participate in sports with our horses.

Same here. I generally quite like Oli, but I found that very uncomfortable watching and I cannot believe that the horse was able to complete the course after that. And frankly, I don't think he should have been expected to.

The problem is though, that when horses are your business, you do see and treat them differently. I'm not saying that these top professionals don't treat their horses well, btw, but ultimately it is their job and to a certain extent horse welfare will always be sacrificed slightly to that.

 

[Malibu_Stacy]

Are they broadcasting the vet inspection this morning? Was hoping to see something on Facebook.

It’s on Badminton TV, live now. Everything presented excepted until I think it was Hector Payne & Dynasty, who’ve gone to the hold box. Quite a few withdrawals, mainly Irish riders. William, Oli, Ros, Piggy, Kitty’s all accepted.

 

[Malibu_Stacy]

Jonelle & Molly accepted

 

[Malibu_Stacy]

break for Carjatan S’s groom to get the best looked after horse award - well deserved with a grey!

 

[typekitty]

It’s on Badminton TV, live now. Everything presented excepted until I think it was Hector Payne & Dynasty, who’ve gone to the hold box. Quite a few withdrawals, mainly Irish riders. William, Oli, Ros, Piggy, Kitty’s all accepted.

Thank you! Found they are presenting it on Badminton Radio, too, for anyone without a pass.