Barefoot, bitless and ''natural'' vs shod, bitted and ''traditional'' - your views?

[Boulty]

You may have a barefoot horse living out naked on a track system but never be seen in public without perfect matchy matchy and compete in dressage with a double bridle if you like or you can shoe, rug & stable but do countless hours of liberty work & riding with no bridle at all. Not everyone / everything has to or can fit in a box.

As long as it’s working for the person & the horse & they’re happy then that’s the important thing.

There are horses who hate bits, there are horses who hate nose pressure, most fall somewhere in between and can probably be trained to either depending on rider preference.

The vast majority of horses could do their job barefoot if their foot health is optimal but not all yards / all owners are able to provide the ideal environment for this. Some horses can still have great feet in a less than ideal environment, some need a lot of extra care & effort to balance out the unideal things.

There are some excellent traditional type trainers whose methods work, there are some equally excellent NH type trainers whose methods also work. (And some trainers who are their own thing entirely!) Just because you go to one type of trainer to help with one goal doesn’t mean you can’t go to another completely different kind to help with something else. There are many roads to Rome.

 

[splashgirl45]

I don’t care what people use as long as the horse is happy, what I do hate is the evangelical attitude of some people who seem to think that putting shoes on is the devils work. Many of us don’t have the luxury of our own land so have to put up with what is available , and many fields have grass which is too rich for equines and many YOs don’t allow track systems or similar, so if I wanted my horses to be out most of the time I had them shod.. when I was young we used to ride bareback with headcollars, how we got away with it I don’t know, but I think it was easier with horses that weren’t competition horses. I doubt I would have been safe with my warm blood if I did away with the saddle and bridle

 

[nikkimariet]

Each to their own, I don’t think one makes you better than the other since nothing we do with horses is natural. As long as your management has the horses best interest in heart I have no dog in the fight.

I’m very pro barefoot but I have no issue with shod horses provided the work is good etc.

 

[Boulty]

I used to do a bit of everything with the Welsh D I used to have. If I wanted to pretend I was a small child sometimes I’d ride in a rope halter or head collar, if I was hacking on my own with nobody else to wind him up or practicing TREC obstacles I’d often be bitless, if it was hot & I wanted to ride in shorts / I was feeling too lazy to brush then I’d ride bareback (I never hacked him bareback as he had a lighting fast sideways teleport spook!) if I was doing “proper” schooling or hacking in company / doing other exciting things he’d be bitted, If we were going hunting he’d be bitted in a stronger bit.

I did try competing in TREC & hunting bitless but the level of finesse and lightness just wasn’t there (neither were the brakes at times if I’m honest!) and I didn’t like how “loud” I had to be to achieve a timely response. If I’d had proper instruction in it rather than it being something I was playing with then I might have been able to get there but the horse went perfectly happily in a bit and safety and not having my arms pulled out were my priority. (I also had 2 occasions where I had fixtures & fittings fail on 2 different bitless setups that could have been dangerous in different circumstances)

I might play with bitless with current horse eventually in the arena but I’d need to think carefully about what type & how as he’s already got a tendency to lean / throw his shoulders about. Hacking would have to wait until he’s a lot more reliable about not snacking unless he’s told to as I could see it turning into a pulling match!

 

[motherof2beasts!]

Each to their own , I don’t feel ultra passionately either way . My current horse is in a universal bit, as I value my life, a TCS because no saddle fits him and currently trying barefoot as he was throwing shoes so much in this relentless rain , and poaching his field , if it works great , if it doesn’t I’ll put shoes back on.

I don’t really care what others do, as long as it doesn’t amount to really poor care. I do care about the preachers that push their preference down everyone else’s throat, our horse, our money , our choice. I’m all for listening but when you’re just being ranted at I’m not so keen.

 

[Celtic Fringe]

Good management and excellent training of whatever 'label' means happy, healthy and willing horses who are keen to work with their humans.
We have always 'mixed and matched' depending on the horse and their work at the time. I took off old cob's shoes when he was ~ 15 on the advice of our farrier and he was barefoot for the rest of his life. Old cob was incredibly sure footed and bold over all sorts of terrain. I also rode him bitless sometimes. We had a 'reverse track' for him - the field was kept fairly short by the herd but the track was good grass and herbs for old cob!
My son's horse was shod in the summer when he was eventing so he did not slip but was barefoot all winter and never had problems. Pony Club was very sniffy about the lack of shoes - 'surely only small ponies don't have shoes' He has not had shoes since he stopped BE eventing several years ago (he is 24). He has also lived out full-time with his herd his whole life.
My little cob was born in a field and was never in a stable until he was backed as a 4-year old. He still mostly lives out - the yard has kept him in a few days over this winter when the fields were very wet. He was not shod until he was 9 and starting to learn pirouettes etc and needed more hind-hoof protection. I have ridden him in a TCS though he currently has a nice dressage saddle which is checked very regularly by the saddler. A Grand Prix dressage rider has also borrowed my TCS as they have back problems and this is really comfortable for them.

 

[ycbm]

I would go to great lengths to get a horse comfortable barefoot but it's not always an option for people, and not always an option for a particular horse.
.

 

[MissTyc]

My last fully shod horse died in 2006 and, since then, I have had one that I shod for studs during eventing season as he was perpetually on the forehand and at risk of a slip. Other than that, I haven't needed shoes on my horses as we are on chalk with excellent hacking, I have a track system, a good trimmer and good diet for the horses. Have done all disciplines and hunting, all without shoes. Must have saved me millions over the years. I hack bitless for chill time but use a bit for schooling and for the younger or less consistent horses that need schooling while out hacking or they start to slouch like teenagers. I aim for self carriage, but as an aging amateur riding, if I can't achieve self carriage in a bitless, then I tend to go more traditional. Whatever works for the person and the horse and the way they live works for me.

 

[GypsGal1718]

Barefoot/shod, do what works for the horse. I really prefer bitless and clicker training as I want my girls to enjoy what they are doing, I also would never want to stable unless medical reasons as it is like being stuck in a single bed when you may not be sleeping for them, I still am able to manage good doers on 24/7 turnout. For me I just want the horse/pony to enjoy what they are doing to the fullest

 

[Goldie's mum]

I'm a child of the 60s so only knew shoes, bit, treed saddle etc in my formative years.

I've never worked with horses as my job, I work with dogs & sheep. Going from being taught as a child there was only one (fairly harsh) way to train a dog, to discovering clickers etc was a big influence on what I'd consider for training a horse too.

So I'm in the "don't throw the baby out with the bath water" camp. Take the good tools for the job from both, to put together a mix that suits an individual horse.




Edited to add - I Have to say it irritates me when someone treats "natural" as a religion that can't be questioned. It's perfectly possible to be unkind to a horse using 'natural methods'. And there's nothing natural about riding a horse at all, by the way!

 

[Skib]

One can ride a shod, bitted horse in a manner based on natural horsemanship. One can even understand the historical reasons why some horses were shod and most were ridden with a bit.
I dont believe in equestrian culture wars. My present share is an RS mare ridden by a dozen other riders so I was asked to ride her using conventional cues. And indeed I did. But the fact is that horses have brains. Any horse I have hacked for a long time, say three years, will pick up cues from my hands and seat. Or even respond to my thinking of the rhythm of trot or canter. She is no exception. I ride her Rashid style because that is how I ride and the horses I have ridden over the last 25 years turn out remarkably similar. But only when I am their rider.

 

[Goldie's mum]

@Caol Ila I saw Monty Roberts give a demonstration, might have been the late 80s (?), it was his first UK tour before he was very well known. He just turned up at an agricultural show, set up a round pen & asked for a volunteer with a problem horse. My impression at the time was he was a salesman, without very much to sell. He barely looked at the poor horse, just played to the audience. Maybe he was having a bad day but it left me suspicious of 'experts' that have one revolutionary new trick, or special piece of equipment to sell that will transform everything.

 

[paddy555]

@Caol Ila I saw Monty Roberts give a demonstration, might have been the late 80s (?), it was his first UK tour before he was very well known. He just turned up at an agricultural show, set up a round pen & asked for a volunteer with a problem horse. My impression at the time was he was a salesman, without very much to sell. He barely looked at the poor horse, just played to the audience. Maybe he was having a bad day but it left me suspicious of 'experts' that have one revolutionary new trick, or special piece of equipment to sell that will transform everything.

interesting because I went to one of his formal demos. must have been early 90's I think and my impression was identical to yours.

Richard Maxwell was giving a demo at a show, he was a lot better and the youngster he was working on messed up when he tried to lead it out of the building. Those lucky enough to watch the next 15 minutes got a very good demo. of horse training.

I hated it as a child as my dad wasn't into spending money on riding so no pony club or anything about horse methods for me. Only things that came out of books I got for Christmas. Hated it at the time but when I got my first horse at 18 I knew nothing which was the best place to be as I had to learn everything on my own. No help, no backup, no money and no dogma to unlearn or question. So I had to work out what actually worked.
My first horse was been badly abused by men and although I didn't understand at t he time had had no basic training concerning a bit. He didn't even stop at a walk, riding on the moor was frightening for both of us. I have no idea why my 18 yo mind simply removed the bit and put reins on his headcollar. Off we went, he stopped easily and neither of us were nervous any longer. Couple of months later I wondered what the point of the headcollar was anyway and moved onto a neck rope.

He was very very nervous with men, couldn't have his feet picked up so I spent a couple of months training him to have his feet picked up and tapped. Then the farrier came to shoe him, he wasn't sympathetic, wouldn't listen and clouted the horse over the knee with the rasp and there started barefoot.

Strange looking back that one horse and my ignorance of anything started my barefoot and bitless journey. Not sure what natural is but with little money clinics were limited but there was one Tellington Jones one about 10 miles away so I could ride there and back each day and that taught me how to think.

Never thought about not having shoes on as barefoot, it was unshod. I only gave it any thought in 2001 when Strasser started causing chaos and I went to a clinic to see what the problem was and to learn how (not!!!) to trim and walked out.

 

[Tarragon]

I think that this is appropriate to the discussion
Each to their own - I say!
I am much more like the right hand person than the one on the left, but I admire any horseperson who has a happy and healthy horse, and who are empathetic and thoughtful, and open-minded.
I don't like anyone who is blinkered to an alternative approach regardless, and are either ignorant and not prepared to learn, or being deliberately close-minded.

 

[holeymoley]

Another whatever works for each individual. At lot of things are in your face these days, Nobody should be forcing anyone to do anything, it’s horse’s for courses.

Times are changing though as a lot of people are wanting to try the benefits of no shoes, bitless, etc

I’m at a yard where it’s very much old school, nearly every horse has a full set of shoes even though they get ridden once/twice per week in the arena. YO is very much gadgets and more gadgets. That’ll never change.

We have a few new liveries that are barefoot and treeless saddle, etc but they are really struggling with the yard as it’s very much chalk and cheese.

As for my own, my oldie has just gone barefoot, i’m looking forward to seeing the results. If it doesn’t work then he can go back to two front shoes. He’ll go nicely bitless in the arena but if I wish to live, I need a snaffle bit out hacking. We have a treed saddle. I don’t use gadgets. Youngster is obviously shoe less and I intend to keep him that way. Again if he needs then I’ll shoe him. He has been bitted and I would expect him to accept a snaffle.

 

[Tarragon]

I do think that barefoot is healthier for the horses feet, and that barefoot and boots would most likely work for most horses, BUT it is a big commitment and takes effort to make it work, and I can see that it isn't for everyone, or every horse.
I do not think that bitless is better that the right bit in the right hands and I do not think that a treeless saddle is better than a well-fitting saddle.

 

[holeymoley]

I’ve seen Monty Roberts a few times myself, he’s very much the ‘showman’ and he has a name to live up to so the chat and the showmanship comes part and parcel with the whole thing. I appreciate his methods but he does beef things out, needs to make money somehow!

 

[SEL]

I did an early Monty Roberts one (also 90s) and he was presented with a pony that had been used for air rifle and paint ball practice (yes - you did read that correctly). It was a welsh type and understandably sharp, anxious and wanting to bolt at every movement behind it. If it hadn't been in a round pen it would have been 50 miles down the road in short order I think.

It was the last time I ever watched him with a truly problem horse. The two demos I went to after that were more designed for TV viewing with horses that I think most experienced, compassionate people could have got results from.

The owners of the pony had managed to get a saddle on it but it absolutely would not accept anyone on it's back. I think the quick fix round pen scenario was totally wrong for it but it was an opportunity to actually see Monty having to really exert some thought and energy. They tried with the dummy on its back (personally I think they should have stopped before then) but the pony wasn't having it. Although the rider was there fortunately no one was stupid enough to progress that far. He did say to the owners that he thought the level of trauma was too great for the pony to ever be a reliable ride which was where I offered up a silent thank you. If ever a pony needed to be unridden it was that one.

Since doing my bodywork training you'll often find my mob balancing on gym mats or being walked around with stretchy bandages around them. Conveniently I'm on my own yard now so no more 'is she bonkers?' looks! But I also have a herb collection for the horses that would probably have got me burnt at the stake some years ago - but that is definitely not a new age hippy thing because most of my herby education came from the old boy who ran a yard when I was a teenager. He had a drench for everything!!

 

[Orangehorse]

Welll I was the typical Pony Club, Riding Club, hunting traditional person. I started to take a bit of an interest in "alternative" after watching couple of Tellington-Touch demonstrations. It was a time when I would have gone to more or less anything horse related.

Then I got a new horse after a 10 year break and I found her very difficult on the ground and in the stable, although very good to ride, whoever broke her in did a first class job, I salute them. She had a lot of little problems and for the physical took her to a local "healer" chap who was starting out and had enormous success, from a few treatment centres that included a local riding instructor/livery yard/breeder/hunting yard/eventer, as traditional as you like. Having checked that the local vet agreed with his methods, she used him a lot and he was able to pin-point things that were hard to diagnose with usual methods.
But my horse would bite and kick and was the only horse I have ever had that kicked me, and that was after I'd had her for a while. So I was pretty much in despair then was able to take her to a Tellington-Touch clinic and ended up riding her without a bridle and that brought home to me that she didn't want to kill me, and I started again from scratch and ended up with a happier horse, although she was always a bit of a misery! Later I bought a young horse and sold her, and started off my youngster with Tellington-Touch.exercises, otherwise known now as groundwork. I really believe that this was an excellent thing to have done with him and is something that is often missing with horses started in a convential way.

So apart from Tellington-Touch I have been to Heather Moffett, Monty Roberts (of course), a clinic with Dr. Deb where to my astonishment the others were barefoot (OK if you ride on a soft surface!), Mark Rashid, and others I can't even remember. From all clinics I got something valuable. I spent a lot, probably enough to have bought another horse. My horse was barefoot for time and I am 100% sure that if I hadn't taken his shoes off he was heading towards navicular.

The "traditional" can be very dismissive of the alternatives, "hippie" but it is wrong to dismiss them. For one thing, it makes you look from the horse's point of view, rather than just the rider's and this can often be the solution. I think this has worked it way into most people's methods now. Not everywhere though, as I asked someone I know who has not only been a top dressage competitor, but is also a Monty Roberts person if in general handling methods and sympathy to the horse has improved and she said that in her experience it has not, sadly.

 

[equinerebel]

My horse is having her front shoes off today to re-try barefoot (tried last year but she got a hoof injury and needed the shoes ..... long story). I'm hoping we have more success this time as she is rising 18 and semi retired. She hated bitless and has been happy with various bits her whole life. I think I probably lean more towards "traditional" for whatever reason, but I really don't care as long as everyone is happy and healthy.

My horse has never responded positively to groundwork, she seems to find it all rather dull no matter who tries or what they do! She feels the same way about flatwork.

 

[suestowford]

I think it's great that we have all these different options now. As horsepeople we should be open to finding the best fit for each individual horse.

 

[suestowford]

My horse is having her front shoes off today to re-try barefoot (tried last year but she got a hoof injury and needed the shoes ..... long story). I'm hoping we have more success this time as she is rising 18 and semi retired.

There's a pony here who wore front shoes for 20 years. He had them removed on farrier's advice a couple of years ago. I did a lot of walking out in-hand (he's arthritic so no riding him) that first year and he wore boots for that but now, his feet are doing really well and the farrier says he will be fine without the boots now. He will be 27 this year and his feet look better than ever. Good luck, it can be a long slog!

 

[equinerebel]

There's a pony here who wore front shoes for 20 years. He had them removed on farrier's advice a couple of years ago. I did a lot of walking out in-hand (he's arthritic so no riding him) that first year and he wore boots for that but now, his feet are doing really well and the farrier says he will be fine without the boots now. He will be 27 this year and his feet look better than ever. Good luck, it can be a long slog!

Thank you! I do feel like perhaps I wasn't fully prepared last time, and then she just got so unlucky with the injury as well. Mine has worn fronts since she was 4, with a few years being fully shod before going back to fronts. I will look into boots

 

[fidleyspromise]

I think any stalwart on either side of the discussion are narrow minded. Rather than focus on one thing I look at the person and how they treat their horse - are they kind but firm? It's no use being nicey nice if a horse is running you over but don't come in all firm with a gentle horse trying their best
I have my horses barefoot but if shoes were needed I'd use them.
I ride with a bit and bitless depending on what I'm doing and who I'm out with.
I do a mix of loose schooling, lunging, parelli games, join up and I school and hack.
At the end of the day I try to look after my horses the best I can while considering their mental and physical wellbeing and I try to find activities they enjoy doing. If they hated jumping I'd teach them to do it so they can but then do what they enjoy. I started jumping because my mare loves it. We had a hiccup and we both lost confidence so we're back trying to find it.

 

[Caol Ila]

Monty Roberts lost credibility with a lot of people by acting like a raging egomaniac, making spurious claims that the techniques he uses come from the way horses interact with each other and that he 'discovered' them from watching wild mustangs. The first isn't true because that isn't how horses communicate with each other, and horses also know that we are not horses. The second isn't true because the techniques he teaches have been around for a lot longer than he has. He didn't discover them.

Some behaviourists did some studies, including having horses join-up with a remote control car (proving they are not responding to body language, but rather operant conditioning, responding to the release of pressure when they did certain things like look at the car/trainer. They also put older mares and yearlings (who didn't know each other) in a round pen to see if they exhibited join-up like behaviour. The mares made a few faces at the yearlings, then they just mooched about.

The underlying principles of a lot of NH-style work are not so different from classical dressage. Which should not be surprising because who were the first European descendants to settle the American west? The Spanish.

There are other trainers out there who use this stuff, some well known, like Mark Rashid, and others not.

My mom was onto me about Monty a few months ago. She'd seen some TV program about the Royal family, and it had said that Monty had started training the Queen's horses. She asked if I knew much about him. I was like, "Oh, aye," and basically said what I wrote here and in my previous post in this thread. More info than Mom wanted! She replied, "Oh, well, the Queen thinks he's good enough." Being cynical, I was like, "Yeah, it's a PR schtick by both Monty and the Royals." I am sure the Royal family employs perfectly capable horse trainers, and there are other Western-style trainers around the UK, but they're not a Name. Why make a thing about bringing in the most famous natural horsemanship trainer in America?

 

[scruffyponies]

Barefoot is cheaper, and you never get down to the field with all your tack to find your horse has lost a leg. That some horses can't work comfortably without shoes is a damn shame, but there you are. I do think their feet are healthier without; unless they aren't.

I haven't personally had one which wasn't relaxed and happy working with a bit - although a small number are a little fussy about what type. I envy people whose horsemanship is such that they can train to a level where it isn't necessary. Having ridden without from time to time, I find ponies let you think you're in charge just long enough to make a total fool out of you when they get an amusing idea.

 

[planete]

Barefoot is cheaper, and you never get down to the field with all your tack to find your horse has lost a leg. That some horses can't work comfortably without shoes is a damn shame, but there you are. I do think their feet are healthier without; unless they aren't.

I haven't personally had one which wasn't relaxed and happy working with a bit - although a small number are a little fussy about what type. I envy people whose horsemanship is such that they can train to a level where it isn't necessary. Having ridden without from time to time, I find ponies let you think you're in charge just long enough to make a total fool out of you when they get an amusing idea.

Definitely! Mine has been so cooperative with a bit in his mouth lately, I thought he might enjoy going bitless (Lightrider) for a change and the occasonal food reward would be easier to chew. I do not think he liked the fact it tightened around his nose and he eventually decided he would go right when I asked for left. I am still nursing a sore left wrist following the ensuing tussle. I won...just. I could ride my previous horses bitless with no problems but then they were not opinionated ponies.

 

[suestowford]

Thank you! I do feel like perhaps I wasn't fully prepared last time, and then she just got so unlucky with the injury as well. Mine has worn fronts since she was 4, with a few years being fully shod before going back to fronts. I will look into boots

I got 2nd hand ones on ebay, they are very pricey new. The added bonus being that they were well worn in and not at all stiff, so we had no rubs or scrapes from them.

 

[maisie06]

But I also have a herb collection for the horses that would probably have got me burnt at the stake some years ago - but that is definitely not a new age hippy thing because most of my herby education came from the old boy who ran a yard when I was a teenager. He had a drench for everything!!

Yet the people who think you are bonkers probably wouldn't think twice at spending £50 plus on a manufactured supplement!

 

[scruffyponies]

I also have a herb collection for the horses that would probably have got me burnt at the stake some years ago - but that is definitely not a new age hippy thing because most of my herby education came from the old boy who ran a yard when I was a teenager. He had a drench for everything!!

I have long since given up telling my ponies what they can and can't eat. We have forgotten most of what mankind ever knew about herbal medicine but they haven't.
I know (some of) the medicinal properties of some of the things they eat (artemisia, thistles heads, willow, meadowsweet), but I have yet to work out why they are so keen on a bit of ivy in the spring.