barefoot, I am getting seriously worried.

[Melody Grey]

I must be the most lazy horse owner with barefoot horses going. All of mine are barefoot and they just get normal trimming from a farrier and a forage based diet and that is all I do for it .

They never have any issues, footiness etc maybe I'm just lucky

I'm not sure I could be bothered with all this crazy culture nonsense.

Me too! Keeping it simple all the way. I use hoof boots though (hopefully that doesn’t make me crazy )

 

[Reacher]

I probably won’t look at the group as it will be bad for my blood pressure .

It’s not only barefoot that have cults, there are the bodyworker cults too.
Why do people fall for , and hero worship , cults ?

Re rugging *, I went on a weekend BF course where day 1 was holistic care and they said domestically kept conditions eg rugging were “harsh” for a horse. I thought, not as harsh as starving to death or being eaten by a lion in the wild, but kept quiet!

(*Obviously inappropriate/ over rugging is no good!)

 

[Indy]

I'm on both their facebook groups. I do think some of the stuff they advocate is interesting and see how it could be useful and I think if they could hold back on the cray-cray there could be some interesting discussions and debate to be had amongst them and footcare professionals which I think everyone talking could only be a good thing for the horses. They have had results but I wonder how much the results have had to do with environment factors and movement rather than the long toe, heels low trim they say we should all be doing for our compromised horses. They aren't saying 'bad' trims cause laminitis they are saying bad trims cause rotation. Their hoof care for healthy hoofs I think is pretty standard it's just when the get their hands on compromised hooves they go cray-cray.

I also don't like how they want people to subscribe to their videos to trim their horses - most of these people have laminitics who need proper hoofcare not someone whose watched a few videos and are giving it a go themselves.

 

[Fransurrey]

I just had a peek at their FB page. Oof. They told a vet of 30 years that he's never seen an acute laminitis case recover. He's being rather restrained!

 

[Fjord]

Re rugging, I went on a weekend BF course where day 1 was holistic care and they said domestically kept conditions eg rugging were “harsh” for a horse.

Pretty sure my mare who shivers when left to get wet and chilly, thinks that's harsher than having her waterproof fly rug on.

I think people go cult like because they want to belong maybe? Plus 'know' stuff that others don't know? Not sure really.

The barefoot trimmer I use for Angel trained with these guys, but is definitely not an avid cult member. I use her because of her sensitive handling of a mare who doesn't appreciate feet being done, but she doesn't trim to the extreme they suggest. She takes on other training ideas too and is very normal, thankfully!

 

[holeymoley]

I wondered when someone would start a post on this. I follow both pages. I’m quite open minded but I’m afraid I find the latest of their finding’s downright nuts and pretty offensive and degrading to those that have spent their lives researching and finding ways to ‘fix’ and help laminitics. I have one myself who went through a hell of a time and we managed to get him right through vets and one of the best farriers in the country, maybe even the world! That was with heartbar shoes. And he’s now barefoot through my own choice and the fact that he’s in his twenties now. Horses for courses. But you can’t tell me that a trim causes the pedal bone to move and even come through the sole?! It happens because of inflammation that breaks down the structures within. How do they explain gas pockets? They’re due to dead material that sits and festers waiting to come out. I shared their post and my farrier mailed me saying they were nuts. As I say, I’m open minded but this just isn’t the answer for me and the way it’s put across and the fact they will argue with anyone that says otherwise speaks volumes for me.

 

[Landcruiser]

I used Gary Hinton for a while, (maybe 6 years or so ago), before I was really aware of Hoofing Marvelous, he was trimming a lot of horses locally and seemed well thought of. I watched my horse develop long toes and low heels over several trims. A friend had the exact same experience with her cob who had previously had great feet. (Mine was a very difficult metabolic horse who was always a struggle to get right). We both changed trimmer when he moved to France, and we both saw improvements (big improvements) with the new trimmer who is excellent and still my go-to. He lives in France but regularly travels back to the UK to trim.

I used to subscribe to the mag when it first came out but stopped as it became more and more...strident. Now I don't even look at their page..it's all a bit mad, as people have said. Unfortunately, they seem to be scooping up a lot of people who don't recognise "good" feet or know much about bare feet or any feet, These people are being misdirected.
By the way, GH never once saw my horse walk up, nor asked about diet. He's a nice guy, and TBH I felt bad ditching him...but also very relieved.

 

[Pidgeon]

Sheesh, just had a mooch and it's horrifying! Pidge has gone barefoot on his hinds as was too uncomfortable being shod, he is 27 now. I don't do anything other than apply moisturiser daily and have him trimmed by my farrier every 6 weeks when he is shod on fronts.

 

[Reacher]

How can they dismiss toe leverage?

“Of all these husbandry practices, the long-toe, underrun heel is probably the worst one that will give rise to navicular and will definitely make any bout of laminitis much worse,” Bowker told The Horse. “With a long-toe, underrun heel, the tissues supporting and surrounding the coffin bone become compromised and the distal (bottom) end of the coffin bone gets less and less support and becomes thinner and thinner along the edges, especially the lateral (away from the midline) side of the foot. These changes will often result in pedal osteitis; many people have heard of this problem.

“When there’s a bout of laminitis (and added) toe pressure through some rotation at the toe, the bone cannot support the weight of the horse with this peripheral thinning of the bone, and the coffin bone becomes crushed,” he added. “That’s the end of the horse!

“We are setting the horse up for failure by having a long toe with our trimming methods, regardless of whether the horse is shod or barefoot,” he said.

Bowker trims to shorten the toe and promote caudal (toward the rear) migration of the heels to bring the central sulcus (the cleft between the heels) back to the sole of the foot so it makes light contact with the ground. He said trimming with these goals can improve the foot’s health and get the ratio to approach 40:60—allowing the back part of the foot to enlarge and return to its robust health.”

Hoof Trimming to Improve Structure and Function

Bowker: Long toes and underrun heels set horses up for failure. Here are recommendations for an improved trim to help correct this condition.

thehorse.com

People like this are bl00dy dangerous

 

[I'm Dun]

It’s not only barefoot that have cults, there are the bodyworker cults too.
Why do people fall for , and hero worship , cults ?

Ask me in 6 months when I finish my research project. Its mind boggling what people fall for.
I did follow hoofing marvellous a few years back. Some of their posts then were sensible and informative, and you only get a snap shot ion FB. When you look closer you start to see the issues. Sounds like its gotten worse and might make good fodder for my work so I'll have to have a look again

 

[Landcruiser]

Wowsers. I just had a look at the FB group. Dangerous stuff (but of course, ONLY THEY have the truth and the rest of us know nothing...)

 

[Arzada]

'The rise of the cult within barefoot hoof care' is the subject of the podcast from Mark Johnson and Matthew Jackson.

Social Media part 2, The Rise of the Cult within barefoot hoof care - M J Farrier another way?

Our most gritty podcast to date by far, Matthew Jackson and Mark Johnson tackle the emotive and divisive subject of what can almost also be described as a dictatorship emerging within barefoot hoof care.With some incredulous claims and absolute st...

www.buzzsprout.com

 

[deicinmerlyn]

I stopped following them a long time ago. Have no time for evangelical, my way or the high way ideology.

 

[poiuytrewq]

I can't work out where they are based? Can't get into the HMI School to find out.

Anyhow, is the cadaver foot being held by Garry Hinton, HMB Pro Instructor an example of their trim? The sole has been severely carved a la Strasser. (https://hoofingmarvellous.net/)

The photos of Lindsay Setchell, also a HMB Pro, in her YouTube thumbnails make her look deranged are ridiculous

I used Gary Hinton on reccomendation (glowing one at that) when I had a horse years ago which just couldn't keep shoes on. He persuaded me to remove all the horses shoes. He talks the talk.
I have to say I did learn a few things off him that I stupidly didn't know before.
I half blame him for loosing one of my horses. I shouldn't as ultimately it was my decision to give it a go. I honestly believed I was doing the right thing. Didn't last very long before they had shoes back on and were happy again, apart from the poor chap who's pedal bone was too rotated to kindly save... I was totally wrong on that though because horses pedal bones DO NOT rotate, Its not a thing.

Big mistake, It's amazing how when you're in a bad place over something someone coming along and promising the world can be so convincing.

 

[poiuytrewq]

I used Gary Hinton for a while, (maybe 6 years or so ago), before I was really aware of Hoofing Marvelous, he was trimming a lot of horses locally and seemed well thought of. I watched my horse develop long toes and low heels over several trims. A friend had the exact same experience with her cob who had previously had great feet. (Mine was a very difficult metabolic horse who was always a struggle to get right). We both changed trimmer when he moved to France, and we both saw improvements (big improvements) with the new trimmer who is excellent and still my go-to. He lives in France but regularly travels back to the UK to trim.

I used to subscribe to the mag when it first came out but stopped as it became more and more...strident. Now I don't even look at their page..it's all a bit mad, as people have said. Unfortunately, they seem to be scooping up a lot of people who don't recognise "good" feet or know much about bare feet or any feet, These people are being misdirected.
By the way, GH never once saw my horse walk up, nor asked about diet. He's a nice guy, and TBH I felt bad ditching him...but also very relieved.

I'm really glad I wasn't the only one!

 

[paddy555]

for those people on her groups. Sorry I tried to put a link but it won't let me.

group is The Phoenix Way Path 2 hoof health

post for anyone on there is 22 hours ago Loreen Gibbs starts " these aren't great pics"

this person is trimming heels down. She has reduced them by 1 inch. I don't think they were high to start with
they are hacked, beyond hacked. It has taken her a very long time to hack them.
she has posted pics
they are awful
the last one has blood spots on the sole.

I don't know how to screen shot this post just in case anyone does. From this post it is quite frightening what people are doing.

 

[Fjord]

for those people on her groups. Sorry I tried to put a link but it won't let me.

group is The Phoenix Way Path 2 hoof health

post for anyone on there is 22 hours ago Loreen Gibbs starts " these aren't great pics"

this person is trimming heels down. She has reduced them by 1 inch. I don't think they were high to start with
they are hacked, beyond hacked. It has taken her a very long time to hack them.
she has posted pics
they are awful
the last one has blood spots on the sole.

I don't know how to screen shot this post just in case anyone does. From this post it is quite frightening what people are doing.

I saw that. I was horrified.

Just listened to the podcast liked earlier, it was really interesting. The point about leverage of the toe compared to pushing your fingernail down is so true.

 

[Tiddlypom]

My EPA qualified and registered full member trimmer was obsessed with lowering the heels. He dismissed any observation of the resulting lengthening toe and worsening foot balance as my vet wanting him to dump the toe.

He utterly failed to recognise the damage that this was doing to the horse.

I presume that he was trained that way. I advise anyone to avoid a trimmer with similar qualifications and training - you might think that your horse was in good hands, but you’d be wrong .

 

[I'm Dun]

I think I have been very lucky to have had 2 brilliant trimmers, who would have had a fit if Id asked about leaving the toes long

 

[holeymoley]

Tiddlypom I wonder if that’s the same chap I know. Older guy. He used to trim a horse at a yard I was at a few years ago. The poor thing was crippled. It was in a ghastly condition overall as he insisted it was only fed copra and nothing else. Owner was brainwashed. It was a tb with typical tb feet. They were flat and lacking in any nourishment so much that they started flaring and had open vertical lines down them. The horse was walking on eggshells but nonetheless he said she was great and so it got dragged in and out to the field everyday and I mean dragged. It got the point that the owner was reported to WHW who came out and insisted on changes. It was x rayed and had boney changes to the pedal bone despite never having had laminitis. The vet wanted to build up support with heartbars and remedial farriery but owner wasn’t having any of it. The poor horse contracted lymphangitis a few weeks after and was pts. Desperately sad situation by someone who I think did care but was absolutely brainwashed by thinking what she was doing was correct.

 

[paddy555]

so I decided that to survive my paid-for day I had better keep quiet about my nice collection of Rambos.

I did the Strasser 3 day owners course not to trim that way I hasten to add but to find out what the h*ll was going on. We got to day 3 morning, we were asked what we were going to do when we got home. The correct answer was to get your newly purchased knives out and trim for England. I said nothing. I was going to carry on with what I had been doing for many years. I was told my trim and barefoot horse wouldn't be as good as their trim and barefoot horses so I walked out. Couldn't stand them any longer.
Very infuriating as I had paid for lunch which I then missed.

 

[paddy555]

Unfortunately, they seem to be scooping up a lot of people who don't recognise "good" feet or know much about bare feet or any feet, These people are being misdirected.

that is the real danger and problem. There are so many posts either challenging or professionals asking questions that are removed so novices don't see them. Yesterday dozens were removed on several threads. So the novices (not being rude to them here) don't see this sort of stuff and life is perfect to them.

The other problem is that they lie and they only post the good. With any method things go wrong and sometimes the problems are not solved by a particular trim. That is life. So really you should see the success and the failure to understand a method. The failure isn't bad, it just hasn't worked and needs a rethink.
That doesn't happen so people see only success stories.
The lies by these cults are a nightmare. For several years we were reading of Strasser trimmed horses, one trimmed by S herself doing many endurance miles. Once someone stood up and told the whole story it was a complete lie. We had a trimmer in the UK who boasted of the miles she did. Her fieldmate later told me it had been lies.

Unfortunately novices believe what they read as they only see positive posts.
The more people challenge HM then the ruder HM get and that means their followers dig in even further to protect their leader against all these nasty vets, farriers and decent trimmers.

The other problem will be those who have tried the HM method and for whom it has failed and if they are trimming their own rotated horses based on online instructions that is going to happen. They then become too scared to say anything or ask for help. They just say they are too ashamed at what they have done to their horse.

 

[paddy555]

It got the point that the owner was reported to WHW who came out and insisted on changes.

i had wondered about WHW for HM in general. It took 4 years to stop Strasser and we cannot do it the same way this time.

 

[Landcruiser]

The other problem will be those who have tried the HM method and for whom it has failed and if they are trimming their own rotated horses based on online instructions that is going to happen. They then become too scared to say anything or ask for help. They just say they are too ashamed at what they have done to their horse.

And the sadness is, they'll blame it on being barefoot and (if the horse survives) they'll go back to shoes.

 

[poiuytrewq]

And the sadness is, they'll blame it on being barefoot and (if the horse survives) they'll go back to shoes.

Because of such a bad experience. I went straight back to shoes and never had a problem since. Even the original horse that my farrier gave up on and told me to go barefoot (but not with him!) Was eventually back shod nicely and made a great recovery with a different farrier.

I know in my head barefoot has to be best but I will never try it again, not in a million years. I do look at my shod horses and I can see problems that I'm sure would benefit from shoes off but they are sound and happy like they are.

 

[paddy555]

Because of such a bad experience. I went straight back to shoes and never had a problem since. Even the original horse that my farrier gave up on and told me to go barefoot (but not with him!) Was eventually back shod nicely and made a great recovery with a different farrier.

I know in my head barefoot has to be best but I will never try it again, not in a million years. I do look at my shod horses and I can see problems that I'm sure would benefit from shoes off but they are sound and happy like they are.

if your horses and you are happy that is all that matters.

Some go BF pretty easily and some need more help. With a good and experienced trimmer (farrier turned BF trimmer) the help is there and there are lots of ways around things and how to get them to work. However none of this is on the HM site. No good telling people their way or the highway you need to adapt your methods to help both the owner and the horse. What works for one doesn't for another. Helping the owner is almost more important than helping the horse and one also has to realise BF is not the best solution for every horse and rider. Sometimes leaving them shod may be the best situation for that horse and rider.
Barefoot produces better feet in the end but not at the risk of sore horses and miserable, struggling owners.

 

[Surbie]

that is the real danger and problem. There are so many posts either challenging or professionals asking questions that are removed so novices don't see them. Yesterday dozens were removed on several threads. So the novices (not being rude to them here) don't see this sort of stuff and life is perfect to them.

It's in their group rules (just had a quick look) that debate or challenge is unwelcome:

Trimming Advice:
This group is run by Hoofing Marvellous promoting The Phoenix Way, therefore any trimming advice not in line with this will be removed to stop any confusion for owners seeking help. If in doubt don't give advice, there are plenty of professionals and students in the group to help.

 

[paddy555]

And the sadness is, they'll blame it on being barefoot and (if the horse survives) they'll go back to shoes.

I know of a case where that happened. It was the best thing they could have done.
I had no idea at the time who the trimmer was but later I recognised her name.

Someone wanted to talk BF with me, had had a trimmer out, shoes off etc etc. In the end I gave up and went to visit.
Hmm! I didn't want to get involved because the trimmers trim as so poor and slipshod, the person, from the look of the horses, wasn't making too much effort and clearly couldn't be arsed.


I was used to people who had just gone BF with an EP. Their long toes may have greeted me but I would get about an hour of the state of their feet, what should happen, what was going to happen, all about feed, management and every other requirement of BF horsekeeping I had managed to live without. However their trimmers had made a lot of effort to make sure their client understood.

I asked these people how much they were feeding the horses. Nothing. The horses were large TB types, far too thin and lacking condition, owners wanted to ride daily and not to give this up for transitioning. They had been told not to give hard feed. Looked at the grazing. It was about a 1 acre field with pretty poor natural grazing with an electric fence around, eaten down to nothing. That is where they lived and what they got to eat.
Owners had been told to make this track. What they lacked was total understanding as to why or anything about track systems. There had been no back up about what to read/google etc They hadn't understood anything but did as they were told. No supplements, no feed. They may have had some hay but far from enough to eat for those sort of horses.

the feet were a mess, typical TB feet that needed help and would also need protection if they were going to ride. No advice on booting, just get on and ride. Trimmer had just done nothing with the toes and the feet were cracking and breaking up. Toes should have been trimmed a little carefully and owners given instructions on how to take care of the cracking. The owners had no understanding of their feet, what state they were in, the way forward etc. They were just lost not CBA.

 

[Landcruiser]

I know of a case where that happened. It was the best thing they could have done.
I had no idea at the time who the trimmer was but later I recognised her name.

Someone wanted to talk BF with me, had had a trimmer out, shoes off etc etc. In the end I gave up and went to visit.
Hmm! I didn't want to get involved because the trimmers trim as so poor and slipshod, the person, from the look of the horses, wasn't making too much effort and clearly couldn't be arsed.


I was used to people who had just gone BF with an EP. Their long toes may have greeted me but I would get about an hour of the state of their feet, what should happen, what was going to happen, all about feed, management and every other requirement of BF horsekeeping I had managed to live without. However their trimmers had made a lot of effort to make sure their client understood.

I asked these people how much they were feeding the horses. Nothing. The horses were large TB types, far too thin and lacking condition, owners wanted to ride daily and not to give this up for transitioning. They had been told not to give hard feed. Looked at the grazing. It was about a 1 acre field with pretty poor natural grazing with an electric fence around, eaten down to nothing. That is where they lived and what they got to eat.
Owners had been told to make this track. What they lacked was total understanding as to why or anything about track systems. There had been no back up about what to read/google etc They hadn't understood anything but did as they were told. No supplements, no feed. They may have had some hay but far from enough to eat for those sort of horses.

the feet were a mess, typical TB feet that needed help and would also need protection if they were going to ride. No advice on booting, just get on and ride. Trimmer had just done nothing with the toes and the feet were cracking and breaking up. Toes should have been trimmed a little carefully and owners given instructions on how to take care of the cracking. The owners had no understanding of their feet, what state they were in, the way forward etc. They were just lost not CBA.

And this is why so many people give up on barefoot. Lack of proper holistic guidance, and a dearth of really good holistic trimmers. There are very few horses that can just have shoes off and crack on as they were without making changes. You really do need a depth of knowledge to successfully keep ridden barefoot horses in the UK, and if you've always relied on a farrier/shoes you are starting from pretty much zero. People don't know what they don't know.

It happened to me right at the start, the first trimmer I used as a new horse owner 16 yrs ago did a lousy job which I didn't recognise until it was pointed out to me by a bodyworker. And yet this trimmer was an EP, and very highly regarded. The second wasn't much better and my horse was crippled to the point of nearly losing him. I did a couple of rounds of Imprint glue on shoes, (literal life saver) then he was shod normally. The barefoot story could have ended there except by then I had done a lot of reading and observing and recognised the start of a dubbed off toe and an under-run heel which worsened at each farrier visit. Then I had another shot at barefoot with yet another trimmer - and she was amazing, and did a fabulous job on him for years. When she retired due to ill health I had moved and was in the area of another super trimmer who trimmed my (very special needs) horse until I lost him a year ago, at a good age and very sound. These two women taught me a massive amount, enough to confidently take on the trimming of my straight forward horses myself which I have now done for about 10 years. It's not easy though, and it took a lot of effort on my part, not just physical.

The more I think of the HM people and what they are doing, the madder I'm getting. They do NOT have the answer and they are being very rude and unpleasant to some good people. They are in danger of setting the barefoot movement back years, and doing some very real damage to lots of horses.

 

[paddy555]

The more I think of the HM people and what they are doing, the madder I'm getting. They do NOT have the answer and they are being very rude and unpleasant to some good people. They are in danger of setting the barefoot movement back years, and doing some very real damage to lots of horses.

I agree. In the horses in post 58 I just didn't understand the horse management side. It was only after reading about HM that it all fell perfectly in place. Good tracks with good track managers are fine. Beginners need a lot of help and info to understand how a track works. Also trim and feed the horse in front of you. A thin TB is not a fat pony.
Problem with the HM management is the same as Strasser. Both had almost identical management which most people have the knowledge to evaluate and see how it could benefit the horse (other than those who need food and rugs ) but, as a US ex strasser trimmer told me "the good ideas just don't make it over into the trim" That was the part they didn't have the knowledge to evaluate so they presumed it would also be good.

Does anyone know if any vets support HM and especially the long toe laminitis approach?
I have seen lots of posts on there where vets have told them the toes are long but they have insisted they are right. Bit pointless paying for a vet to then tell them they are wrong. Similarly them telling trimmers how to trim and leave the toes. I'm not sure why those trimmers don't just tell them to do it themselves.

There was a post yesterday where a horse with long toes had been in hospital (for something else) and the vet/farrier trimmed the toes. Sorry in HM speak "chopped" the toes. So funny. One of them suggested suing the vet.