paddy555
Well-Known Member
erm, well, actually that is what you are doing now isn't it? bleating
barefoot, I am getting seriously worried.
- Thread starter paddy555
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Reacher
Well-Known Member
Someone slap Paddy on her back!splutters into coffee cup
Arzada
Well-Known Member
What training do farriers have, during their course and before qualification, in
1. trimming a performance barefoot horse?
2. boot fitting?
Are these skills in the syllabus?
meleeka
Well-Known Member
No but many do receive training on these things. There are a couple near me who also sell and fit boots. Modern farriery is very different to what it used to be. I don't need a farrier to supply me with boots. It's not rocket science and there are online companies that give advice freely who I trust. My farrier has just given up, but I know he had as many barefoot clients and he did shod ones (horses that is
). He studied the anatomy of the hoof for years and was properly insured and registered with the appropriate body. As long as a barefoot trimmer does that too, it's fine. I'm not sure I'd need a written report to justify the additional £££ for one though.gunnergundog
Well-Known Member
Does Donald Trump have any vacancies? If so, please forward her CV and divert her energies elsewhere.
cariadbach10
Well-Known Member
Her language is very ‘Trumpian’ isn’t it?
I very much like Rory Stewart’s definition of populism on ‘The Rest is Politics’ podcast. He says that populism offers ‘simple answers to complicated questions.’
Offering simple answers to complicated questions is very seductive. ‘Stop the boats.’ ‘Lock her up.’ ‘ Brexit means Brexit.’ And so on. It doesn’t matter than these kind of messages are in and of themselves completely empty.
All HM has done is bring populist messages to the hoofcare world. People who are experiencing problems with their horse’s health are seduced by simple ideas. The truth is that every horse is different. There is no one simple answer. ‘It depends.’
Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
Yes, 'Stop the Chop' is their little catchphrase, which they like to accompany with other emotive language like 'butchering'. If any laminitic toe is reduced it isn't being trimmed okay everyone, it's being BUTCHERED
I genuinely wonder how much these people actually care about and think deeply about horse welfare as a whole, v.s. this whole thing just being the biggest ego trip/marketing ploy/money making scheme (their courses/online consultations are expensive).
A while ago I distinctly remember GTL sharing a post gushing about a top competition horse jumping barefoot, but the horse was so kitted out in harsh bits and leverage nosebands that you could barely see the animal's face (apart from the very stressed looking eye). Lots of people in the comments pointed out that the photo didn't represent good welfare and then she turned off comments and moaned that people were giving her a headache.
It was difficult to miss all of the harsh tack because it was a close-up photo and was very in your face, so it did strike me as odd that someone who constantly bangs on about people 'butchering' their horses thought it was a nice photo.
Point being that the horse being barefoot aligned with her ideology, so the other bad stuff (despite being plain as day) was glossed over. Both pages love to block people and delete comments, which speaks volumes to me.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I avoid all BF groups, guru syndrome seems to be a particular issue with some people who keep horses with out shoes .
Horses suffer because of it .
Horses suffer because of it .
Fieldlife
Well-Known Member
There is a great local farrier near me, who trims a lot of barefoot horses, and stocks evo boots in all sizes. I dont need a farrier to fit boots, but having someone with on site stock to try different sizes was very helpful.No but many do receive training on these things. There are a couple near me who also sell and fit boots. Modern farriery is very different to what it used to be. I don't need a farrier to supply me with boots. It's not rocket science and there are online companies that give advice freely who I trust. My farrier has just given up, but I know he had as many barefoot clients and he did shod ones (horses that is
Fransurrey
Well-Known Member
Scientific my arse.
Actually my arse is pretty scientific. It's shuffled, sat and pooped it's way through 8 years of study in the physical sciences. Which makes what comes out of my anus more meaningful.
What do I know, though. I only write 'peer reviewed' papers.
Fransurrey
Well-Known Member
Me too and I'm a BF advocate!
daffy44
Well-Known Member
Me too! I have barefoot horses, but the barefoot groups seem to attract some real fanatics, scary stuff.
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
I read some of them but do my own thing
FieldOrnaments
Well-Known Member
stupid question but what is the hsp being forever mentioned by HM? 'trim to the hsp' but where/what is it?
eta - in words of one syllable please as i understand as much about trimming as a sugar glider does about flying a boeing 747
eta - in words of one syllable please as i understand as much about trimming as a sugar glider does about flying a boeing 747
cariadbach10
Well-Known Member
Hard sole plane, I think.
FieldOrnaments
Well-Known Member
yes it is but i mean what is that?
FieldOrnaments
Well-Known Member
(When I say i know nothing.... I really do know nothing 
)
)paddy555
Well-Known Member
what a very wise lady you are
I follow some which are educational. The owner doesn't have an ego and provides interesting info. The case studies are interesting however they are very experienced trimmers, often farriers, who are providing well thought out, sensible and useful info.
Then of course there are the HM type ones
Where the only thing that matters is the owners ego.these sort, (quote below) which go against all vets farrier, barefoot farriers, experienced trimmers and most of the rest of the universe.
Yes, 'Stop the Chop' is their little catchphrase, which they like to accompany with other emotive language like 'butchering'. If any laminitic toe is reduced it isn't being trimmed okay everyone, it's being BUTCHERED
paddy555
Well-Known Member
it's the hard waxy sole.
whilst trying to find an example I came across this video from Mark Johnson I was unaware of. Haven't watched it yet but MJ ones are always worth watching. Hopefully someone will enjoy it.
.
FieldOrnaments
Well-Known Member
oohhh that video/ cadaver demonstration gave me a proper eureka moment with understanding it, thank you very muchit's the hard waxy sole.
whilst trying to find an example I came across this video from Mark Johnson I was unaware of. Haven't watched it yet but MJ ones are always worth watching. Hopefully someone will enjoy it.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
did the link work? I really struggled to get it to work and then gave up.
FieldOrnaments
Well-Known Member
the mark farrier link, yes.
Fransurrey
Well-Known Member
Yes it did. Been a while since I watched a video like that and this was a really good one. Thanks for sharing! My own horse has a very weak back of foot (chronic thrush, metabolic issues, yada yada), so trimming to volar/live sole plane/hard sole plane (jeez just choose a term!) would be disastrous.
dorsetladette
Well-Known Member
Farriers don't just spend 7 years of training making shoes. The 'blacksmithing' is a small part of the syllabus.
Farriers, until recently were the only option to tend to horses feet weather barefoot or shod. Farriers are trained in the anatomy of the horse, not just the hoof but the limbs and how the hoof affects the joints and movement. My farrier will often show and explain to me what he is looking at when he stands back and checks alignments in my horse during their trims (none are shod).
All farrier are expected to keep up to date with their CPD (continuous personal development) according to the register. Boot fitting could be an option they choose to look at as part of their CPD.
I did write a long post about my opinions and experiences of barefoot trimmers but feel it's probably best kept to myself. My dads words ringing in my head - if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all.
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Landcruiser
Well-Known Member
As has been said so many times, there are good and bad farriers and likewise barefoot trimmers. I've sacked off both, for a variety of reasons. It was a farrier who saved the life of my old horse Pat (Andrew Poynton, who applied several sets of Imprints) and a trimmer that almost killed him, resulting in Andrew being called in. These experiences were what drove me to educate myself, and fast, about hoof health, form and function and gave me the confidence to sack off the farrier that took over when the Imprints became unaffordable, when I realised the hooves were going backwards again. And to get yet another barefoot trimmer, who turned out to be brilliant and kept him sound for years.
Just as an aside, one of the worst things I've seen was a "farrier race" at a country show, Newbury I think. This was probably a decade or so ago now. There were about 8 farriers lined up, they were all given a horse to remove shoes and then reshoe, against the clock. They were then marked on speed as well as result (which didn't include the horse being moved/walked/trotted in any way, it was all visual). A big crowd watched, I wonder how many apart from me were pretty horrified by the idea of speed being any part of it as well as the production-line like approach being taken to all those living hooves. And yet those were all trained practicing farriers, happy to do that without knowing anything about those horses.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
By not sharing you are not alerting other owners. This is not the sort of thing to keep to yourself.
I’ve had good and bad farriers, but my n=1 experience of a trimmer was negative.
I only employed a trimmer over a farrier because at the time HHO was wildly in favour of them and I got sucked in by the hype
. I believed that I was doing the best thing for my horses. The trimmer was a lot more expensive than my farrier, too, so it wasn’t to save money.paddy555
Well-Known Member
that is a problem that HM don't seem to be explaining to their followers some of whom then, with total lack of any experience or knowledge simply go on to lower the heels to HSP.
There is the point to be taken into account that you are lowering the heels probably considerably in some and that is going to affect the stance of the horse from bottom to top very suddenly.
I can't see they are telling their followers to check the condition of the DC, poor horse if it has thrush and what about those who by lowering the heels are simply going to be frog walking due to the natural size of the frog (either thrushy or not) It has always been a case/problem with lowering heels that you can only do what the foot can cope with at that time.,
another worrying point is that the sole is thin in the seat of corn, lower it too much and you are not far off blood. I don't think their followers are away of this.
So many problems with the HM trim both the long toes and the low heel, the woman is a flipping nightmare. It would be interesting to ask those sort of questions on her FB groups but I feel you either would get shouted at or simply banned.
Nocturnal
Well-Known Member
Great video, thanks for sharing! Wish all farriers were like thisit's the hard waxy sole.
whilst trying to find an example I came across this video from Mark Johnson I was unaware of. Haven't watched it yet but MJ ones are always worth watching. Hopefully someone will enjoy it.
dorsetladette
Well-Known Member
totally agree that there are good and bad in all professions. It's up to us to find what works for our horses. After my terrible experience I educated myself in hoof health too.
We noticed at the Royal welsh that one poor horse in the farrier section had been stood there from 8am until tea time and walked out only wearing 2 shoes (one on the back and one on the front) we commented on how long it had taken. Hopefully things have moved on from the speed rounds of farriers competitions.
What I found out about the 'trimming world' put me off ever using one again. The lack of accountability and their own rules that are openly manipulated to suit the narrative they want to preach. I could set up a trimming organisation tomorrow and then set my own rules and regulations. Send out qualification certificates to my friends and family who could then trade as barefoot trimmers with no prior training.By not sharing you are not alerting other owners. This is not the sort of thing to keep to yourself.
I’ve had good and bad farriers, but my n=1 experience of a trimmer was negative.
I only employed a trimmer over a farrier because at the time HHO was wildly in favour of them and I got sucked in by the hype
I was sucked in by the hype too. I used a barefoot trimmer who banged their own drum so much everyone repeated it (like a song you hear repeatedly on the radio). He took shoes off for me when I first bought my welsh cob and then proceeded to take his feet back to the nail holes 'to prevent infection getting into the feet'. I didn't see this happen as I was haying and poo picking my other horses while B was tied up for trimming (naive I know). I was just given this as a reason/excuse after I returned and questioned (and cried a bit). My horse was crippled. Their were spots of blood around the toes on his fronts and his heels on his hinds were bright pink (white feet). He'd taken so much hoof away he was walking on his soles/frogs and then to try and make that look better he took away sole to match. His soles were so damaged, literally paper thin. It took the best part of a year to correct. B sprung abscesses in both back feet that under-ran from his heel under what was left of his sole right to the point of his frog. I pretty much dry bandaged his feet for the entire winter to give him some support. He was never 100% right after this and i do base his arthritis in his knees and hock down to how uneven he was for so long putting pressure on his joints incorrectly. My farrier then visited weekly and took the tiniest bit of growth off to help him grow foot back evenly.
I spoke out at the time (before I was on HHO) and got ridiculously bullied by the trimmer and his partner and their merry band of followers to the point I was threatened with my horses being stolen/taken. I was reported to the RSPCA by them and photos of my horses feet were posted all over the internet (perfectly good feet before he touched them I just wanted rear shoes off to turn him out with my others but was rail roaded in to so much more) with terrible messages of neglect and abuse and his band of merry men joined in. It's like they were describing an donkey sanctuary fund raising advert on the TV. Worst of all trimmer and his wife kept their horses next to mine and had to drive through my rented field to get to theirs it was daily abuse endlessly. They'd wait until I left of an evening and take waters off my horses (stacking buckets outside field gate) and report to RSPCA. RSPCA visited several times and wanted vet reports on feet every time - my vet happily chatted with them on the phone but one obnoxious inspector repeatedly insisted on a vet visit where my vet would provide x rays and progress photos showing the improvements. I got copies of x rays from B's previous owners vet (I didn't vet before purchase, but they only owned a short time before selling on luckily) so we could show before trimmer, after trimmer and the progress made since and my vet would openly name the trimmer that caused the issue to the inspector as they were normally hanging around watching. It got to the point that I waited up the road to see them drive home then go back and refill my waters to make sure my horses had water over night. They also started treating my friends horse for mud fever even though she was doing it herself. Honestly never met crazy like it! His wife spat in my face and assaulted me. I moved my horses in the end but it was a really terrible time. But it didn't stop, they set up email accounts and started emailing my friends and family with all sorts of stories about me. They even replied to adverts I put up looking for grazing telling me 'what actually happened' it was relentless for a very long time. Then all of a sudden it just stopped.
This was over a decade ago. The guy is still trading as a trimmer and still has a strong following locally, but no one who actually rides their horses. From memory he attended less than 10 training sessions working on deceased horses feet and then became qualified. he worked in IT previously.
Sorry if this is garbled, it was a very upsetting time and reliving it isn't pleasant.