Barefoot people - how is this OK?????

[abitodd]

Some of the barefoot organizations, and farriers I believe, have been working with LANTRA for some while (years lol) now to agree standards for trimming.

They are,I believe STILL working on the minimum standard and have yet to decide on a governing body. It is most likely to be the WCF.

 

[ester]

Sadly she or anyone can set themselves up as an expert because there is yet to be a governing body for barefoot trimmers. The animal wellfare groups are keen to create regulations and standards. Let's hope they do.

Surely there has to be some onus on the owner though to check out whoever they are letting loose on their horses feet, there are I think at least two lists of registered trimmers in the UK (there might be another too ) and it is possible to find out what the training has involved/required via the internet.

Having spent some time looking at insurance documents of late it is a stipulation that feet (and teeth, for which I think the situ is the same, plenty of non registered/qualified dentists still) have been seen to by a qualified professional on a regular basis. I have wondered how that works with trimmers, I would assume that if you could indicate that they were a member of one of the aforementioned bodies that this might suffice. (someone else might like to elaborate here!)

 

[abitodd]

Surely there has to be some onus on the owner though to check out whoever they are letting loose on their horses feet, there are I think at least two lists of registered trimmers in the UK (there might be another too ) and it is possible to find out what the training has involved/required via the internet.

Having spent some time looking at insurance documents of late it is a stipulation that feet (and teeth, for which I think the situ is the same, plenty of non registered/qualified dentists still) have been seen to by a qualified professional on a regular basis. I have wondered how that works with trimmers, I would assume that if you could indicate that they were a member of one of the aforementioned bodies that this might suffice. (someone else might like to elaborate here!)

Most insurance companies only recognise those qualified with WCF.

 

[marc]

certification and registration of barefoot trimmers will be the best thing to protect horse welfare, hopefully one day it will come but until then horses will have to suffer from poor workmanship and propaganda. Registration will make them liable for their actions

 

[annunziata]

OMG!!!! My BF is a barefoot trimmer and it took him three years to qualify!!!!!!!! I could not imagine reading this and getting a sander to my horses feet!!

 

[amandap]

certification and registration of barefoot trimmers will be the best thing to protect horse welfare, hopefully one day it will come but until then horses will have to suffer from poor workmanship and propaganda. Registration will make them liable for their actions

Registration doesn't protect horses from some farriers.

I do think owners need to check for themselves about insurance and speak to clients. Owners educating themselves is vital imo. Registration of some body doesn't mean protection in any sphere of life. There's been the odd murderous doctor etc. etc.

 

[amandap]

Here's the link to the NOS Standards for barefoot care. http://www.lantra.co.uk/getattachme...4d/Equine-Barefoot-Care-NOS-(April-2010).aspx

 

[cptrayes]

Sadly she or anyone can set themselves up as an expert because there is yet to be a governing body for barefoot trimmers. The animal wellfare groups are keen to create regulations and standards. Let's hope they do.

Totally agree with this.

They already exist. What does not exist is anyone prepared to pay to police them. The trimming organisations haven't the money and aren't the ones causing the problem and no-one else wants to pay.

 

[cptrayes]

certification and registration of barefoot trimmers will be the best thing to protect horse welfare, hopefully one day it will come but until then horses will have to suffer from poor workmanship and propaganda. Registration will make them liable for their actions

Marc it did not protect me from farriers who slowly lamed my horses over several years of apparently good shoeing, so can you go preach somewhere else, your profession are not saints. For a start, there are hundreds of you taking money for shoeing horses who you surely MUST know don't need them - cobs with great feet, tiny ponies, people who only ever ride in an arena etc etc
And most of you get a footie barefoot horse and the first thing you suggest is "put shoes on it" when all it needs is a diet change.

Now, if you want a sensible debate like Moorman and A Guilding join in, please help up with your knowledge. If all you want is a fight, then carry on by all means but all you are doing is bringing your own profession into disrepute.


There are a huge number of people on this forum whose horses have highly functional barefoot hooves trimmed by trimmers (and although I don't recommend it, I learned from a book!) including dozens who have horses who were due to be retired or put to sleep because their farriers could do no more for them, who are now in full work barefoot.

Please stop insulting us and get into the real world.

 

[LucyPriory]

I can not and would not endorse the behaviour of individuals who suggest horse owners learn to trim by book or use tools for which they have no training. Fortunately unlike apples, one bad individual doesn't (necessarily) sour the whole pot.

Which is why when I come across good farriery on my travels I am happy to applaud it. And I have found some examples. One in the London area and another in Surrey.

But among the gems I am more likely to come across this type of example:-

The farrier (who at the time trained a lot of apprentices) who wanted to shoe and pad my two year old. (apparently born with rubbish feet and she would be dead without shoeing by 5-7. She had great feet and when old enough happily did 50 plus miles a week on the road.)

The apprentice farrier (apprenticed to one of the 'biggies') who sincerely believes that stretched white lines are caused by the hooves getting wet. Diet apparently isn't relevant. So I guess if we all get our horses in when it rains and avoid puddles like the plague laminitis will be a thing of the past?

The award winning farrier who allowed a horse's heels to get so high the horse was crippled - to the point the farrier advised that horse to be PTS (sound two weeks into barefoot). And same farrier allowed another horse to tin can so badly he kept falling (sound more or less immediately barefoot).

The 'barefoot specialist' farrier who lamed my sound horse every time he put a rasp to her feet and smacked my rescue horse (already terrified of men) in the face. (Apparently she looked at him 'funny'.)

The farrier (again one of the 'biggies') who with the benefit of x-rays tried to straighten the foot of a horse with wonky legs. The resulting damage to the knee was clearly visible on x-ray. But they kept on doing it and eventually the horse was PTS.

And the farrier who thought it was a good idea to completely burn the heels out of a horse with a hot shoe? That one will be a long time coming sound, but he is, slowly, slowly improving.

I could go on.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Must be by luck more than judgement that there are any sound shod horses then.
I'll be looking for barefoot horses at the olympics, seeing as farriers are laming everything they put a shoe on or do they have barefoot trimmers advising on the squad ?

 

[amandap]

The apprentice farrier (apprenticed to one of the 'biggies') who sincerely believes that stretched white lines are caused by the hooves getting wet. Diet apparently isn't relevant. So I guess if we all get our horses in when it rains and avoid puddles like the plague laminitis will be a thing of the past?

This is the sort of thing owners really do need to learn about. What a truly healthy hoof should look like and what are the danger signs to be aware of. The days of relying on any professional are gone if you want the best for your horse, you have to educate yourself. So much info is available free on the internet.

The barefoot movement is questioning every aspect of many traditional practices and the scale of horses being badly done to is being realized, times are certainly changing and the horse and owners will only benefit. Seeing horses hooves that are indicating all sorts of problems is so 'normal' many of us don't/didn't even realize there might be something very wrong.

Are apprentices only attached to a single farrier? If so this is one thing that needs to change imo.

Oh and while I'm on a roll... the hoof really is connected to the horse.

 

[amandap]

Must be by luck more than judgement that there are any sound shod horses then.
I'll be looking for barefoot horses at the olympics, seeing as farriers are laming everything they put a shoe on or do they have barefoot trimmers advising on the squad ?

Google effects of horse shoes.

To quote (probably not exactly) the words of someone wise. "If your horse is lame without shoes it isn't sound".

Imo shoes are a remedial intervention.

 

[Amaranta]

Marc it did not protect me from farriers who slowly lamed my horses over several years of apparently good shoeing, so can you go preach somewhere else, your profession are not saints. For a start, there are hundreds of you taking money for shoeing horses who you surely MUST know don't need them - cobs with great feet, tiny ponies, people who only ever ride in an arena etc etc
And most of you get a footie barefoot horse and the first thing you suggest is "put shoes on it" when all it needs is a diet change.

Now, if you want a sensible debate like Moorman and A Guilding join in, please help up with your knowledge. If all you want is a fight, then carry on by all means but all you are doing is bringing your own profession into disrepute.


There are a huge number of people on this forum whose horses have highly functional barefoot hooves trimmed by trimmers (and although I don't recommend it, I learned from a book!) including dozens who have horses who were due to be retired or put to sleep because their farriers could do no more for them, who are now in full work barefoot.

Please stop insulting us and get into the real world.

I must have been extremely lucky with my farriers, my horses are unshod and are trimmed by my fully qualified farrier. I am of the opinion that if they need shoes, they will get them and when one of my mares looked as though she was unlevel in front, my trainer suggested putting front shoes on, my farrier did not want to, he did not think it was the problem and said that she had beautiful feet and that it would be a crime to shoe them, however, he, very reluctantly, put fronts on, he was right, her feet were not the problem.

My last two farriers (I moved) have also happily encouraged me to keep shoes off as they felt that my horses all had good enough feet to go without, they hack and compete normally and quite honestly the trims (apart from the field kept broodies) that they have are so minimal as to be almost non existant - not ALL farriers are bad, just as I suspect not all trimmers are.

 

[ausipaliboi]

This 'feedback' comment left me speechless

Arthur (Farrier Australia)

I’ve been reading books and books on Barefoot Trimming, but it wasn’t until I bought your eBook that I fully understood the trimming aspects and since applying your method to my barefoot horse, he has come on hugely! Thank you!

What the hell kind of farrier is he pretending to be???

 

[Amaranta]

Well, i went one further and contacted her to request she remove her 'book' from sale.

I pointed out she may be liable for any horses that may go lame as a result of her trimming advice. Or, possibly the death of some.

Somehow, money speaks louder than care in these cases and I hope someone will alert her to the dangers of her trimming before we lose dozens of horses like the strasser situation a few years ago.

Brilliant, well done - you have inspired me to do the same

 

[cptrayes]

Must be by luck more than judgement that there are any sound shod horses then.
I'll be looking for barefoot horses at the olympics, seeing as farriers are laming everything they put a shoe on or do they have barefoot trimmers advising on the squad ?

horserider it is comments like Marc's, who says that he has never seen a sound foot on a barefoot horse unless it was trimmed by a farrier, and you, who take our perfectly reasonable response to his comments and then make this ridiculous extrapolation, who ruin these discussions and bring them down to the level of farce.

 

[criso]

I can not and would not endorse the behaviour of individuals who suggest horse owners learn to trim by book or use tools for which they have no training.

The only person who suggested I should do this with my barefoot horse was a remedial farrier who gave me one of his old rasps and suggested I give him a 'bit of a tidy up' between visits.

Not saying that owners necessarily shouldn't do this if they know what they are doing. But you don't just hand someone a tool which they don't know how to use.

This was after hacking his frogs out so badly it made him bleed and left him sore for months. Apparently they were 'overdeveloped'.

 

[debsg]

Haven't had time yet to read all the replies. My two girls are happily 100% sound-on-all-surfaces barefooters.
Just looked at that woman's ad for her book and my toes are curling up, thinking of the damage some mad tw*t with book and angle grinder (OMFG!!) could do!! Not to mention the damage to the barefoot 'cause' for want of a better expression. The comments from other local horsey people that I am mad, will ruin my horses' feet and that I am a bunny hugging hippy for wanting them barefoot had all but ceased, there is more positive feedback on ths forum and finally barefoot is becoming more 'mainstream'. Then this loony pokes her head over the parapet!!

 

[debsg]

PS Don't think any sensible barefooter would say this is OK, any more than someone who advocates shoeing would go along with those weird 'rocker' shoes that I have seen on the net for dressage horses. Or the monstrosities that Tennessee Walking Horses are shown in. Extreme examples of either end of the spectrum. God help the poor horses!

 

[mandwhy]

PS Don't think any sensible barefooter would say this is OK, any more than someone who advocates shoeing would go along with those weird 'rocker' shoes that I have seen on the net for dressage horses. Or the monstrosities that Tennessee Walking Horses are shown in. Extreme examples of either end of the spectrum. God help the poor horses!

I have heard of the 'stacks' put on Tennessee walking horses and 'soring' which is horrendous but since you reminded me I just googled to see what they looked like and........I....... just........ WHAT? What the hell???

So just out of interest, in your barefoot opinions are there certain breeds that do better barefoot? If so which ones? Or is it based on individual hoof conformation?

 

[MerrySherryRider]

horserider it is comments like Marc's, who says that he has never seen a sound foot on a barefoot horse unless it was trimmed by a farrier, and you, who take our perfectly reasonable response to his comments and then make this ridiculous extrapolation, who ruin these discussions and bring them down to the level of farce.

Speaking in regard to my own comments, I disagree. To repeatedly hear criticism of farriers as a profession by barefoot posters is unfair and inaccurate.
I have yet to hear an example of criticism of any barefoot trimmers work on anyones horse on here, are they all beyond reproach ?

Extremism on either side of the debate is really off putting.

 

[ester]

There was a trimmer criticised the other week for not agreeing to discuss issues with a vet (I can't remember who it was or what the issues were though).

 

[Oberon]

I have heard of the 'stacks' put on Tennessee walking horses and 'soring' which is horrendous but since you reminded me I just googled to see what they looked like and........I....... just........ WHAT? What the hell???

So just out of interest, in your barefoot opinions are there certain breeds that do better barefoot? If so which ones? Or is it based on individual hoof conformation?

If I may take this one....

There are breeds who have different shapes of hooves. My draft (always BF) has flatter hooves and my Arab has longer toes....but they both function just fine on them.

There are breeds who are traditionally fed a high sugar and cereal diet and also stabled from an early age who tend to 'need' shoes as soon as they are backed....

Genetics are blamed, and the horse is said to be born with crap feet.....
Yet these very horses will commonly defy their genetics when fed an appropriate diet and allowed to develop the caudal hoof as they should have done when they were youngsters.

Hooves need movement just like we need air. If they don't pound their lateral cartilages and digital cushions they under develop and fall out of function. You end up with an adult horse with a weak and squishy caudal hoof that can't support the horse. This is often interperated as the horse not coping with the workload and therefore shod. Which will leave the heels hanging and then the caudal foot falls further behind. Horses can die of old age with the caudal hoof development of a foal.

There are breeds who are notorious for struggling with sugar sensitivity (Iberians, TBs to name two) who may be footy if not fed according to their needs. This is often seen as needing shoes.

As for hoof shape - individually assessing the horse and trimming according to their natural hoof shape yields better results than formulaic trimming. That's what can make something as simple as trimming a hoof really complicated...you have to appreciate each horse's individual limb development, action, wear pattern etc. There is never just one answer

 

[marc]

Just to finish my contribution to this thread then everyone can discuss with each other, registration does not protect from poor workmanship from either farriers or trimmers but it does make them liable for their actions and prosecutable(spell) for any harm caused. If a barefoot trimmer makes your horse's foot bleed they can ride off into the sunset without having to pay any consequences.

There are lots of horses around here. Some of them are shod, some are barefoot and most of them are quite happy. I dont come across any barefoot trimmers, they dont last long around here and I've had to fix a few of their disasters over the years. I guess the economy may be a reason for that too when what you pay a premium for doesnt work then you go back to the professional who can help.

I do find it a shame because some of the guys at the top of the barefoot trimming tree have done some excellent scientific research. Its a shame all those below them aren't able to apply themselves.

 

[Oberon]

I do find it a shame because some of the guys at the top of the barefoot trimming tree have done some excellent scientific research. Its a shame all those below them aren't able to apply themselves.

I find this extremely frustrating too.

Problems arise when people trim with their egos rather than their brains

I turned to BF trimmers after witnessing a farrier's apprentice (under the scrutiny of the farrier) leaving my healthy hoofed horse stood in pools of blood during a routine trim

Fortunately I found a couple of diamonds that have been keeping my horses sound and happy for many years now.

There are good and bad in both.

 

[maggiesmum]

Speaking in regard to my own comments, I disagree. To repeatedly hear criticism of farriers as a profession by barefoot posters is unfair and inaccurate.
I have yet to hear an example of criticism of any barefoot trimmers work on anyones horse on here, are they all beyond reproach ?

Extremism on either side of the debate is really off putting.

The reason you'll hear many barefooters criticise farriers is because once upon a time we also believed that horses needed shoes then we hit a problem, for some it was a bad day with the farrier e.g... horse left severely lame or bleeding, for others it happened over time eg.. navicular, for the most part we're critical because we've had bad experiences, we've seen the worst ones and they were the reason we went barefoot and in some cases they're the reason why we're so adamant that our horses will stay barefoot, why would we put back the very thing that caused the problem in the first place?

There are good farriers out there, there are also good trimmers out there too, the difficult part is finding them.
I'm sure you'll see trimmers criticised by barefooters, as someone pointed out there was criticism of one last week who refused to discuss a horse with its trainer, there are plenty of bad ones out there and however scathing pro-shoe people or farriers are of them believe me any decent trimmer will be 10 times more frustrated about it, they are after all damaging the reputation of the barefoot movement as a whole.

 

[Trot_On_Dressage]

I am finding the barefoot debate really interesting. Especially as I have a young horse just back who is still not in shoes yet and have been trying to decide whether I should bother with them as he seems fine. How ever, coming from a nutrition back ground myself I understand the concept of diet and how it plays an important part. Although would like to point out that sugar is not the enemy, horses need sugar for their brain to function and grass contains more sugar than any hard feed, sugar also doesn't hot up horses. I think would you are referring to is starch not sugar.

 

[amandap]

Sugar/glucose is not the enemy but too much of it very much is. There is so much hidden sugar in horses diets in many grasses and hays. Imo the sugars in grass and hay is much more of a problem than in feeds. Feeds just tip many over the edge.

 

[Trot_On_Dressage]

Totally agree with you. Sorry, get very defensive over the whole sugar debate as generally everyone blames feed companies without realising hay and grass contain the most sugar. I will go back to just reading! One question tho, as mentioned my youngster doesn't have shoes on yet and I was wondering how barefoot or unshod horses cope jumping on grass without shoes.