Mule
Well-Known Member
He hasn't. He's 13. Do you think it's a possibility?
Barefoot transition thread/journal
- Thread starter Mule
- Start date
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
And I would insist even if your vet says there is no point. Thin soles are often the only symptom.
A friend if mine was told there was no point, vet did the test very reluctantly, and the result came back sky high.
.
A friend if mine was told there was no point, vet did the test very reluctantly, and the result came back sky high.
.
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Mule
Well-Known Member
He is also very hairy this year. He's not as hairy as the 26 year old mare who is on prascend but he is pretty hairy.
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Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
Mule
Well-Known Member
Excellent. I've been reading up about it and it sounds very good.
Mule
Well-Known Member
I've just ordered it
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
did you get the starter kit with th applicator?I've just ordered it
Mule
Well-Known Member
I did.
PurBee
Well-Known Member
Looking at your 12 wk hoof pics, the one thing that im seeing that stands out with all 4 feet and can be causing uncomfortable feelings for your horse are the bars.
Because the pics arent at the angle needed to really assess it clearly - (camera at heel bulb looking along the plane of the hoof), i could be wrong with what im seeing from the ‘sole face’ underneath pics youre showing.
Front right hoof - right bar - heel half long, not too bad tho’. Fuzzy pic when i zoom, im seeing a faint hairline crack in the bar halfway down? If cracked pressure needs to come off the bars completely and trimmed right to sole plane.
Theres a corresponding bulge of the hoof wall at the quarters, which is same in all 4 feet, the same side where the longest bars lay. As i dont have camera at heel shots, to assess lateral balance its hard to confirm they’re uneven.
Front left hoof - right bar, from heel to halfway long, laid over sole, can see sole turned white part from bar pressure....easier to see on black soles. I can see a V crack where the white line of bar ends, cause by long bar. The bars can withstand full pressure only when they are growing upright, but when they start leaning over then the horse will feel it and it can walk footy just with a minor bar issue.
Rear hoofs same, the right bars are long. Moreso right hind than left hind
Sometimes footiness is caused by the slightest anomaly with hooves, and my own have strode off confident when ive taken just a few mm off the bars. Ive had hairline cracks that are hard to spot unless you really look, but taking the pressure off the bar, like you would with a cracked hoof wall, can make all the difference with comfort for the horse.
Your horses soles arent showing signs of p3 pressure on them, so when im looking im trying to find anything on the hooves which would cause him to be sore on clay. The fungus has been mentioned, so certainly treat that, although i wouldnt say that the frogs have been completely eaten up with fungus as can happen...there’s a lot of frog there, decent size, shape.
The bars are the only other thing i can see which can be placing pressure in the wrong places because of their distorted shape.
Its great your trimmer has got rid of the long toe. The underslung heels will right themselves in time.
Trim the bars to sole plane...or slightly shorter if/where they are cracked, then assess how he strides.
Is his stride better on the field or concrete? Or footy on all surfaces?
Would be handy to see pics from the heel, looking along sole plane, with fetlock in view.....allow the hoof to hang loose with grip on fetlock and take pic from above...if you fancy it and have time!
I wouldnt give up just yet. Youve got some major wall distortions to grow out, and the hoof still re-adjusting. It takes a while for the minerals to do their job. Its only been 12 weeks.
Trim the bars, assess comfort of horse, then boot if still footy.
Cushings test as mentioned is worth doing.
Because the pics arent at the angle needed to really assess it clearly - (camera at heel bulb looking along the plane of the hoof), i could be wrong with what im seeing from the ‘sole face’ underneath pics youre showing.
Front right hoof - right bar - heel half long, not too bad tho’. Fuzzy pic when i zoom, im seeing a faint hairline crack in the bar halfway down? If cracked pressure needs to come off the bars completely and trimmed right to sole plane.
Theres a corresponding bulge of the hoof wall at the quarters, which is same in all 4 feet, the same side where the longest bars lay. As i dont have camera at heel shots, to assess lateral balance its hard to confirm they’re uneven.
Front left hoof - right bar, from heel to halfway long, laid over sole, can see sole turned white part from bar pressure....easier to see on black soles. I can see a V crack where the white line of bar ends, cause by long bar. The bars can withstand full pressure only when they are growing upright, but when they start leaning over then the horse will feel it and it can walk footy just with a minor bar issue.
Rear hoofs same, the right bars are long. Moreso right hind than left hind
Sometimes footiness is caused by the slightest anomaly with hooves, and my own have strode off confident when ive taken just a few mm off the bars. Ive had hairline cracks that are hard to spot unless you really look, but taking the pressure off the bar, like you would with a cracked hoof wall, can make all the difference with comfort for the horse.
Your horses soles arent showing signs of p3 pressure on them, so when im looking im trying to find anything on the hooves which would cause him to be sore on clay. The fungus has been mentioned, so certainly treat that, although i wouldnt say that the frogs have been completely eaten up with fungus as can happen...there’s a lot of frog there, decent size, shape.
The bars are the only other thing i can see which can be placing pressure in the wrong places because of their distorted shape.
Its great your trimmer has got rid of the long toe. The underslung heels will right themselves in time.
Trim the bars to sole plane...or slightly shorter if/where they are cracked, then assess how he strides.
Is his stride better on the field or concrete? Or footy on all surfaces?
Would be handy to see pics from the heel, looking along sole plane, with fetlock in view.....allow the hoof to hang loose with grip on fetlock and take pic from above...if you fancy it and have time!
I wouldnt give up just yet. Youve got some major wall distortions to grow out, and the hoof still re-adjusting. It takes a while for the minerals to do their job. Its only been 12 weeks.
Trim the bars, assess comfort of horse, then boot if still footy.
Cushings test as mentioned is worth doing.
Mule
Well-Known Member
Thank you, that's really helpful. I will take the photos you suggested. He walks better in the field than on concrete but he is footy on both. Do you think hoof imbalance is the reason for the bulge on the hoof walls?
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Mule
Well-Known Member
The beast is in a stable with nice dry bedding. I had some iodine lying around so I sprayed his frogs with that. His collateral grooves, towards the heels are much deeper than usual, so I think they definitely need treatment. Remind me the next time I get a horse not to buy an (almost) half draught with giant, hooves ?
I went out to him tonight to skip out his stable. There was one only dropping but he managed to stand on it with all four hooves? I'd forgotten how messy he is in the stable. That's obviously not good for thrush so I'll have to keep an eye on it. I've made a start on it now so that's good. Does anyone know is it best to wait until autumn to get the cushings test or should I get it now?
On another note, the 26 year old mare with cushings and chronic laminitis is barefoot and happily canters in for her feed so surely there's hope for him too.
I went out to him tonight to skip out his stable. There was one only dropping but he managed to stand on it with all four hooves? I'd forgotten how messy he is in the stable. That's obviously not good for thrush so I'll have to keep an eye on it. I've made a start on it now so that's good. Does anyone know is it best to wait until autumn to get the cushings test or should I get it now?
On another note, the 26 year old mare with cushings and chronic laminitis is barefoot and happily canters in for her feed so surely there's hope for him too.
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PurBee
Well-Known Member
This is the type of view thats helpful to see balance:
https://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/
The ‘7 weeks deshod’ angle particularly showing a bit more leg to see how the hoof hangs in alignment with leg bone.
I think the side wall bulge is more to do with the under-run heel effect. The hoof wall cells being bound like a matrix to each other, if you imagine that as a sheet of paper, and the heel grows forward and under, the walls bend to accomodate the shifting growth pathology. That could be what is ‘pulling’ your bars over, as a secondary effect to the heel growth angle. So the bars end up growing over/leaning over instead of ‘up’ and the horse loses support of bars too. The growing over onto sole will cause pressure there on the sole - but its normally thick in the seat of corn area, however the frog crevice side of the bar is being ‘levered’ with every step with over-laid bars, and could be felt more sore in the frog crevice where the bar grows out from. So like with long hoof walls, trimming the excess wall off the bar, relieves the ‘leverage’ effect and soreness.
Hooves with upright growing bars are resilient, and can be left longer that sole plane without causing soreness. Its mainly bent over bars that can cause issues...behaving like a flared hoof wall.
Under-run heels are tricky because they are always low, never growing hugely tall because they just lean growing forward.
My mares fronts were prone, she came to me sporting real long toe, crushed heels...long skinny frogs...and very footy.
The apex of the heel should be roughly level with the base of frog, but we have that apex moved forwards with under-run heels.
Getting the cells to grow upright again requires the heels to be trimmed, and definitely the toe bringing back as has been done on your horse.
The imbalances can be caused by the conformation of the horse, and/or uneven trims. The horse will adjust to uneven trims, and behaviour of gait sets in, so then balance is trimmed, horse should slowly re-adjust.
It’s a long process with long-standing issues, so 12 weeks is nothing. I’d give a horse a year to try to rehab, if no luck, plonk shoes back on.
This wet winter hasnt been the easiest to deal with barefoot with constant wet either!
https://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/
The ‘7 weeks deshod’ angle particularly showing a bit more leg to see how the hoof hangs in alignment with leg bone.
I think the side wall bulge is more to do with the under-run heel effect. The hoof wall cells being bound like a matrix to each other, if you imagine that as a sheet of paper, and the heel grows forward and under, the walls bend to accomodate the shifting growth pathology. That could be what is ‘pulling’ your bars over, as a secondary effect to the heel growth angle. So the bars end up growing over/leaning over instead of ‘up’ and the horse loses support of bars too. The growing over onto sole will cause pressure there on the sole - but its normally thick in the seat of corn area, however the frog crevice side of the bar is being ‘levered’ with every step with over-laid bars, and could be felt more sore in the frog crevice where the bar grows out from. So like with long hoof walls, trimming the excess wall off the bar, relieves the ‘leverage’ effect and soreness.
Hooves with upright growing bars are resilient, and can be left longer that sole plane without causing soreness. Its mainly bent over bars that can cause issues...behaving like a flared hoof wall.
Under-run heels are tricky because they are always low, never growing hugely tall because they just lean growing forward.
My mares fronts were prone, she came to me sporting real long toe, crushed heels...long skinny frogs...and very footy.
The apex of the heel should be roughly level with the base of frog, but we have that apex moved forwards with under-run heels.
Getting the cells to grow upright again requires the heels to be trimmed, and definitely the toe bringing back as has been done on your horse.
The imbalances can be caused by the conformation of the horse, and/or uneven trims. The horse will adjust to uneven trims, and behaviour of gait sets in, so then balance is trimmed, horse should slowly re-adjust.
It’s a long process with long-standing issues, so 12 weeks is nothing. I’d give a horse a year to try to rehab, if no luck, plonk shoes back on.
This wet winter hasnt been the easiest to deal with barefoot with constant wet either!
Mule
Well-Known Member
Just reading that I'm not surprised it's a long process, particularly when the hooves have a lot of problems. It must have taken some time for the hooves to have become so distorted, so it makes sense that it will take time for them to recover. I'm hopeful that hoof armour, boots and a drier environment will help him.
I re-measured him recently but the stupid measuring tape is scratched and too hard to read in photos. I'm going to re-measure after his next trim and send the pictures to the hoof boutique for help as I can't tell where the heel buttress is.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
His collateral grooves, towards the heels are much deeper than usual, so I think they definitely need treatment. Remind me the next time I get a horse not to buy an (almost) half draught with giant, hooves ?
.
This isn't an area where they normally get thrush, and it's usually a sign that the depth in the heel inside the foot is increasing, with a tighter connection and more digital cushion raising the pedal bone inside the foot.
It's something I would be very happy to see.
.
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
I too would be happy to see deeper grooves there. As long as the grooves are smooth and clean, it simply means the hoof has more depth.
One thing I find helps, if I bring a wet, naked hoof into a dry bed I use grease on it to prevent it from drying out too quickly. Then grease it again before it gets wet, to prevent it getting wet too quickly. I know that many people disagree with this, but then they also like the look of my horse's feet.
I use a specialist barefoot grease from France, it is really effective. I believe the big grey from Ireland with the huge crack that featured in several barefoot threads on here also used this grease to good effect, and the foot, that many thought would never come sound, did.
I had a quick search, can't find the barefoot one, but this is the sporting one. They come in summer, winter and mid season...
http://equiworldlimited.co.uk/tacks...ucts_id=1740&zenid=4q6muem91q4qb0pvatuug8kqt2
They also do a regerating balm.
Once the frog has a tough outer against thrush, I would use this, but twice a day after dry brushing so it is scrupulously clean. With the frogs I would first go a Cleantrax soak. You need 2 bottles to do 4 feet, plus a soaking boot. It is a pain, but the feet do look a lot better straight away.
I have never used hoof armour as I would not be able to monitor for thrush if they were covered. I have found that keeping them clean is key, along with not letting them go wet/dry/wet/dry without the above grease on them to prevent the swing being too quick.
I know it all sounds a pain, along with needing to walk in hand with boots, tailoring the diet etc. but looking at the shape of the hooves I would do it for the longevity of the horse.
One thing I find helps, if I bring a wet, naked hoof into a dry bed I use grease on it to prevent it from drying out too quickly. Then grease it again before it gets wet, to prevent it getting wet too quickly. I know that many people disagree with this, but then they also like the look of my horse's feet.
I use a specialist barefoot grease from France, it is really effective. I believe the big grey from Ireland with the huge crack that featured in several barefoot threads on here also used this grease to good effect, and the foot, that many thought would never come sound, did.
I had a quick search, can't find the barefoot one, but this is the sporting one. They come in summer, winter and mid season...
http://equiworldlimited.co.uk/tacks...ucts_id=1740&zenid=4q6muem91q4qb0pvatuug8kqt2
They also do a regerating balm.
Once the frog has a tough outer against thrush, I would use this, but twice a day after dry brushing so it is scrupulously clean. With the frogs I would first go a Cleantrax soak. You need 2 bottles to do 4 feet, plus a soaking boot. It is a pain, but the feet do look a lot better straight away.
I have never used hoof armour as I would not be able to monitor for thrush if they were covered. I have found that keeping them clean is key, along with not letting them go wet/dry/wet/dry without the above grease on them to prevent the swing being too quick.
I know it all sounds a pain, along with needing to walk in hand with boots, tailoring the diet etc. but looking at the shape of the hooves I would do it for the longevity of the horse.
Mule
Well-Known Member
Ooh excellent, that's cheered me up
Mule
Well-Known Member
I'll have a look at the grease. Thanks for the link. I agree that making the effort is worth it. I'd like to give him the best chance. The way his hooves were shaped I'd say he would have been a candidate for navicular at some time in the future.
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
When was he last trimmed OP? Just be aware that farriers sometimes over trim unshod hooves, as though they were preparing them for shoes. This can make the horse less comfortable, so might be another reason your boys is still not completely sound. Remember, the Rockley horses aren't trimmed at all as they are turned out on a range if surfaces to "self trim".
Mule
Well-Known Member
He was last trimmed on January 27th. I do notice that the farrier doesn't take much off him. He just uses a light rasp on the the hoof walls. I was surprised when I started reading about hooves that some farriers/trimmers are much more invasive. I've read about people trying to create concavity by going at the sole. I suppose if you have a horse with good sole depth you can get away with that but it would be disastrous for the likes of the beast.
Brownmare
Well-Known Member
I have a horse with draft type feet very similar to yours. The key to getting him comfortable barefoot was trimming his bars right down. That stopped a lot of the flaring and the abscesses he used to get at this time of year every year!
My farrier said recently that he has advised a few of his clients with thin soled horses to add pea or whey protein to their feeds and he is seeing significant improvements.
Another thing you may want to look at is rockering the heels to encourage more upright growth while leaving some heel height for comfort. http://www.hoofrehab.com/HeelHeight.html
My farrier said recently that he has advised a few of his clients with thin soled horses to add pea or whey protein to their feeds and he is seeing significant improvements.
Another thing you may want to look at is rockering the heels to encourage more upright growth while leaving some heel height for comfort. http://www.hoofrehab.com/HeelHeight.html
PurBee
Well-Known Member
Its ideal if they have a range of surfaces to condition the feet to. I’ve tried creating different surfaces, which mine have more access to in summer, from soft mud, massive crushed rock paths, gravel areas, flat smooth hard concrete....their feet are always better in summer being exposed to all these surfaces constantly.
There’s a ‘wild herd’ on the bog near me, their feet have hard tracks, forestry soft ground, mud...ive seen their hoofprints where they go...which is everywhere! Up on high banks...even over stacks of slippy log poles. These ponies canter up my hard track when i shoo them off from my yard, not one of them lame! They need worming, decent food in winter, but theyve got great self-trimming feet!
Gravel is a god-send. If you have even a small area you can gravel where they can have a haynet, that would help ensure a few hundred steps on that surface per 24hrs.
There’s a ‘wild herd’ on the bog near me, their feet have hard tracks, forestry soft ground, mud...ive seen their hoofprints where they go...which is everywhere! Up on high banks...even over stacks of slippy log poles. These ponies canter up my hard track when i shoo them off from my yard, not one of them lame! They need worming, decent food in winter, but theyve got great self-trimming feet!
Gravel is a god-send. If you have even a small area you can gravel where they can have a haynet, that would help ensure a few hundred steps on that surface per 24hrs.
Mule
Well-Known Member
I have a hopeful update.The farrier is coming tomorrow. I will be at work when he comes so I spoke to him over the phone. He suggested trying hoof casts. He has found them useful for laminitic mares that are in foal and he thinks they will help him too. So fingers crossed ?
Mule
Well-Known Member
I have a hopeful update.The farrier is coming tomorrow. I will be at work when he comes so I spoke to him over the phone. He suggested trying hoof casts. He has found them useful for laminitic mares that are in foal and he thinks they will help him too. So fingers crossed ?
Mule
Well-Known Member
The farrier came today while I was at work. He suggested putting a cast on the beast's hooves. Anyway I assumed (my fault entirely) this was just some sort of resin but when I came home his co-owner informed me it was a glue on aluminium shoe with a cast wrapped around it? I didn't know whether to laugh or to cry but seeing as the horse is now comfortable I suppose I should laugh.
At least they are only on the front hooves and there's also some sort of putty on the frogs so they are still being stimulated. I'll be able to exercise him now that he's comfortable. The shoes/cast should stay on for 3 weeks. I will have hoof boots by then and if necessary he can wear them during the day and go without them at night when he's in the stable.
I can understand why horse shoes were invented. You have a horse with dodgy feet, bang on a pair of shoes and off you go. It makes sense for people who need horses to earn a living. Anyway I will take photos ofaa his cast/shoes and upload them later???
I didn't know whether to laugh or to cry but seeing as the horse is now comfortable I suppose I should laugh.At least they are only on the front hooves and there's also some sort of putty on the frogs so they are still being stimulated. I'll be able to exercise him now that he's comfortable. The shoes/cast should stay on for 3 weeks. I will have hoof boots by then and if necessary he can wear them during the day and go without them at night when he's in the stable.
I can understand why horse shoes were invented. You have a horse with dodgy feet, bang on a pair of shoes and off you go. It makes sense for people who need horses to earn a living. Anyway I will take photos ofaa his cast/shoes and upload them later???
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Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
Once upon a time, a farmer had a valuable horse run away.
“Bad News!” said the people.
“Good news, bad news, who knows?” replied the farmer.
Later, the horse returned to the farm with many wild horses accompanying it.
“Good News!” said the people.
“Good news, bad news, who knows?” replied the farmer.
Some time after that, the farmer’s son fell and broke his leg while trying to train one of the wild horses.
“Bad News!” said the people.
“Good news, bad news, who knows?” replied the farmer.
Soon after, the army came through town conscripting all able-bodied young men, and the farmer’s son was passed over.
“Good News!” said the people.
“Good news, bad news, who knows?” replied the farmer.
I have seen many versions of this story, but I thought it was apt! I hope today's news turns out to be a good news day.
“Bad News!” said the people.
“Good news, bad news, who knows?” replied the farmer.
Later, the horse returned to the farm with many wild horses accompanying it.
“Good News!” said the people.
“Good news, bad news, who knows?” replied the farmer.
Some time after that, the farmer’s son fell and broke his leg while trying to train one of the wild horses.
“Bad News!” said the people.
“Good news, bad news, who knows?” replied the farmer.
Soon after, the army came through town conscripting all able-bodied young men, and the farmer’s son was passed over.
“Good News!” said the people.
“Good news, bad news, who knows?” replied the farmer.
I have seen many versions of this story, but I thought it was apt! I hope today's news turns out to be a good news day.
Mule
Well-Known Member
? I hope so too ?
Mule
Well-Known Member
PurBee
Well-Known Member