Black Caviar

[Crugeran Celt]

Her trainer has never ever said or claimed to expect she would win, he is on record as being happy IF she won by a nose. Unfortunately sport and outcome, contrary to whatever fairy tail one likes to live in, does not always conform to expectations, it's called horses and life in this case. Sorry you are so let down Nelly did not run away and trounce the opposition by a mile.

I am not dissapointed by her at all, very glad she won and that she is ok and going home with her track record intact and she is healthy and safe because that really is the main thing. You really have misunderstood me but I give up trying to explain but please believe I am as pleased as anyone that she won today I have been looking forward to her performance all week. Just like to say too that I am one of those ignorant people who knows nothing about racing and has never really followed it but she captured my attention this week and I will follow her career in the future surely that is a step forward for racing if more people take an interest in it? You could be right about the trainer not expecting more but have watched the coverage all this week and the BBC have definately suggested that she would win very comfortably.

 

[onlytheponely]

If we wish to see Brash or Ebullient, and we can add Vulgar, then all we need to do is watch just about any of our Festivals. I thought that the filly's connections were well mannered, courteous and contained.

Sour grapes, anyone?


Alec.


Peter Moody, the trainer, hadn't exactly been polite about the race quality. He described Black Caviar's mission as ' racing against inferior opposition for inferior prize money' . Just a little disrespectful to the other owners that have bothered to send their horses from abroad too.

Sorry firm cross posted ;-)

 

[teapot]

If that is the case regarding thinking it's an inferior race of money and competition quality, surely they could have aimed her at a better, richer race?

Genuine question here

 

[Maesfen]

Haha, worth pointing out that friends of mine in Melb are complaining about how 'cold' their winter has been, at 16 degrees.

Well even more spectacular then

Actually, no because the temperatures are far more similar than they would have been normally; (I'm sure the grammar police will have a windfall with that one! )

Sorry it didn't live up to your huge expectations. She came halfway around the world after never having run outside of OZ, excuse me if she didn't win by 10 lengths due to (possible) jock errror or anything else she has not been previously exposed to .

I never mentioned ten lengths at all, someone else might have done but you have to admit that she was badly ridden in the last furlong, as the jockey admitted himself. What I meant was with all the hype about her and how good her connections are, it was a pity he decided not to rub our noses in it and show us what both she and him are really capable of. What happened though is opinions about him have nose-dived because he so very nearly cost her her amazing 100% record. That was the disappointment for me, that he was too cocky by half. It doesn't matter that they've never been challenged before, he's a professional jockey on the world stage and he dropped his hands; he should have known a lot better to have ridden her out to the best of her ability to after the post. Then nobody would be having this conversation, we would have been lost in admiration for a fantastic mare who had shown us how it should have been done. We all think she's still a fantastic mare but this race did not show her at her best due in main part, to her jockey.

I don't think anyone is critisizing the mare's ability but just that they expected her to win by a fair way. That didn't happen and she could so easily have lost that some people feel dissapointed by the performance. If most, like me are not avid race watchers but were drawn to watching this mare because of the hype it was a little dissapointing but that doesn't take away anything from the mare's outstanding history and the fact that she has travelled so far for this race. What she has achieved in her 22 races is outstanding and she will be remembered as an exceptional mare regardless of how she won today.

Exactly, thanks for putting it better than I did.

[
They are criticising her ability by the very obvious dissapointment she did not win by 10+ lengths.

I am just saddened by how many are schocked / sad / surpsrised / that she did not win by blazing a firey trail of glory winning by 30 lengths without pausing for breath. A " fair way" is in the eye of the beholder, to some it may be a nose, to others 1 furlong - yes that is an extreme. If she had won by 5 lengths then all we would hear is "poor quality field".

There is no way in heaven that she won by 'a fair way' as you call it. Just a nose is nowhere near enough a 'fair way' unless you happen to be in a snail race.

For the record, I admire the mare,(who couldn't, she's a legend in her own life time) I admire her trainer and staff for the way she's been handled; I did not admire her jockey. Can you imagine what his life could have been like if she had been beaten by his mistakes?

 

[HollyWoozle]

I had also read Moody's comment about 'inferior' competition and before the race today I'd watched this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exsl74qv2DY

At around 3.40 he goes on to say "facts and figures tell you there's not a horse out there can beat her". Comments like this made me feel sure that Black Caviar was set to win by a long margin, hence why I was somewhat surprised that it was so close.

Just to be clear, I'm not criticising the trainer at all (er, he's obviously bloody good at his job and as mentioned already, I know nothing about racing!) but just that it was this sort of thing that set up my expectations of the race. I don't think the comment was necessarily cocky or anything, but it just made me think BC was sure to win.

 

[HashRouge]

Well I'll admit I felt a little disappointed after the race. Look at it this way - I've never seen Black Caviar run before, I didn't know much about her, but I had heard a LOT of hype over the past few weeks. And it really has been hype on an incredible scale, like nothing I've ever heard before, even when Kauto Star and Denman were at their peak. Now, I wasn't expecting her to do what Frankel did, but I was expecting a slightly more convincing victory. What made me feel disappointed wasn't Black Caviar (my sister and I were very impressed!) but the fact that we didn't get to see the best of her. As in, we didn't see the Black Caviar that had resulted in all that hype. Note I'm not saying the hype isn't justified, just that today's race didn't really explain in. I think rider error was involved and I also think the ground and the long distance she has come won't have helped. And I think that is how a lot of posters feel. Does that make sense? I did feel quite sorry for her trainer after the race because you could tell from his face he knew her victory would be overshadowed and the doubters would continue to doubt. I don't know if I'm explaining myself very well - I suppose what I'm trying to say is that you can't be surprised people are a bit underwhelmed if all they know of the mare is a) the insane hype that has surrounded her arrival in Britain and b) today's race. It won't just be people on HHO judging her on that basis, but probably the majority of people who saw today's race, horsey or non-horsey. In all honesty, a lot of the blame probably lies with the media

Anyway, now I understand why Black Caviar and Frankel would have been highly unlikely to meet, even if she'd stayed in Britain, I'll turn my attention to the possibility of a Frankel/ Camelot show down . Henry Cecil has apparently raised the possibility of the two meeting, so I can only hope!

 

[teapot]

Ditto HashRouge - exactly how I feel and I've been following her for a few weeks, including reading the Aussie press coverage.

I'm still interested to know why they didn't aim her at a stiffer more valuable race though!!

 

[Miss L Toe]

If that is the case regarding thinking it's an inferior race of money and competition quality, surely they could have aimed her at a better, richer race?

Genuine question here

The prize money in the UK is probably not as good as in other countries, but the prestige is greater. Some good horses may not have been entered just because she was in it, I thought the field was a good size, and good quality, and lets face it she nearly got beat!
The other problem of travelling horses internationally, which is an accepted practice nowadays, is that of seasonality, it is difficult to train a filly when her coat is not in prime condition.

 

[Zebedee]

At the end of the day (or the race as it happens) the mare won. The jockey committed a huge error of judgement, but she still won, probably for the first time in her life she had to fight at the finish............but she still won. In the post race interviews the jockey immediately held up hands & admitted his errors without trying to make any excuses. He deserves far more respect for that alone (never mind the win) than some people on here are showing.

Alec & Janet G - superb posts as always.

 

[teapot]

Well Goodwood did up their Sussex Stakes prize to a million but she'd never run over the Sussex Stakes distance (& Goodwood's a tough course) so it was in vein.

There must be something richer & better at York or Newmarket surely?

 

[ClassicG&T]

I'm kinda on the fence here.
I'm glad she won, even though it was just by a nostril, and think she deserved it. I know she has traveled a lot and it's all new to her, but what about the other traveled horses? Wasn't there one that won the other day from Hong Kong?
I think Moody said some things that came out wrong and IMO the field was pretty strong, she did well to win.
If it is true that she may never race again, it seems a shame that she'll just be bred from for the rest of her life.
Beautiful mare

 

[bonny]

Ditto HashRouge - exactly how I feel and I've been following her for a few weeks, including reading the Aussie press coverage.

I'm still interested to know why they didn't aim her at a stiffer more valuable race though!!

It was one of a series of sprint races, held worldwide with a huge bonus to any horse than could win in 3 different countries. The plan was to win here, she's already won in Australia and then go to Hong Kong for her third.
Connections also wanted to show us that they had the best sprinter in the world which sadly they failed to do ....

 

[Lyle]

Go Nelly! 22 straight wins in a row, still un-beaten, that is un-paralled.

Having watched her race many times, I can say that she definitly wasn't the same horse that she normally is. She looked very flat and tired coming down to the post. I don't think the jockey gave he a completely supporting ride, which LN openly admitted. As none of us are privy to the real information, we can only speculate; maybe she was sore and LN stopped riding? Maybe she was genuinly tired?

I think the 'she didn't do a Frankel' comments are a bit silly, if you look back through her career, she has well and truly dominated some of the best sprinters in Aus, such as Hay List. Yes, she didn't show her true form at Ascot, for reasons we will probably never know.

I think if you were the owner/trainer of a horse that has had 21 unbeaten starts, you might come across as a little confident and enthusiastic about your chances of winning?

And enough with the Aussie basing We are not all arrogant, uncouth, banjo twangers. Some of the comments have been uncalled-for and rather vulgar.

Just enjoy the moment and appreciate the mare for what she is, she just went down in history. You can't deny that she is talented and incredibly gutsy.

 

[teapot]

Thanks Bonny, I didn't know that

 

[milesjess]

Folks go on YouTube and watch her other races, she destroys every field and it shows why she is so impressive and world class.

Admittedly she didn't seem herself today, whether it was the long journey, change in climate, bad jockey, ground...

But I always got taught. Whether you win by an inch or a mile, winning is winning

She's a cracking horse and will be lots of good press to racing in the future. I hope her lameness is nothing serious as she recovers well

 

[Mariposa]

Well done Nelly! I put money on her back in April and got evens, so the little mare made me £40, so supper was on her tonight!

She is a great mare, and as Luke Nolen said, it was pilot error not horse error, she was just cruising. What a mare, what a fabulous mare

 

[lisa77]

The only horse we have a real form comparison on for "Black Caviar" is "Soul". "Soul" raced against her at Royal Ascot yesterday and also raced in many sprint races in Australia before he was sold overseas.
In Australia "Soul" was not in the same league and Black Caviar. The horses that beat "Soul" in Australia ( like Star Witness), were given a galloping lesson by Black Caviar whenever they met.

So since "Soul" ran to about 1 length of her yesterday, she was clearly below her best and I feel disappointed that everyone seems to be questioning how good she is.

To me she is a true Aussie Champion and when the chips were down she dug deep, stuck her neck out and won. How could we want anything more.

 

[brighteyes]

Good mare. She won, in spite of everything. Now, take her back to Australia and look after her.

 

[LadyRascasse]

I personally don't think she was right today, whether it be lame or just not had enough time to acclimatise. Luke has never picked up the whip in her other 21 starts so when he started flapping it I knew she was in danger. Very lucky to win today. I hope the mare is ok and they make the right decision by the horse not the public. She owes them nothing.

 

[Circe]

This is her beating Hay List, the second-highest rated sprinter in the world (another Aussie...) Poor Hay List, he's seen her backside more times than Excelebration has seen Frankel's...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvYeDFR1SDg

Thankyou for posting this link.
This shows Black Caviars class and talent.
I'm slightly sad that she wasnt' able to have such a definative win at Ascot, for whatever reason, as I think that's what the public had been expecting.
At the end of the day though, a win is a win, and she is still unbeaten. She doesn't need to prove anything anymore.
Kx

 

[ester]

The only horse we have a real form comparison on for "Black Caviar" is "Soul". "Soul" raced against her at Royal Ascot yesterday and also raced in many sprint races in Australia before he was sold overseas.
In Australia "Soul" was not in the same league and Black Caviar. The horses that beat "Soul" in Australia ( like Star Witness), were given a galloping lesson by Black Caviar whenever they met.

So since "Soul" ran to about 1 length of her yesterday, she was clearly below her best and I feel disappointed that everyone seems to be questioning how good she is.

To me she is a true Aussie Champion and when the chips were down she dug deep, stuck her neck out and won. How could we want anything more.

That's really interesting thanks for posting, another pondering of mine was that if her 21 previous runs were in Aus that perhaps, for some reason, the current horses in Aus weren't as fast as the group over here atm.

It's all very well she has destroyed every other field and that shows her class but it is difficult to really judge that without more knowledge of the quality of the field behind her (although as a group 1 race you'd expect ). So a direct comparison is really interesting

 

[merrymeasure]

Well, even if the win wasn't what we were expecting, she still won. She's travelled a long way, it was sporting of her connections to have brought her here and I, for one, have enjoyed having her here on our shores, and I hope she has a safe journey home.

 

[amage]

The only horse we have a real form comparison on for "Black Caviar" is "Soul". "Soul" raced against her at Royal Ascot yesterday and also raced in many sprint races in Australia before he was sold overseas.
In Australia "Soul" was not in the same league and Black Caviar. The horses that beat "Soul" in Australia ( like Star Witness), were given a galloping lesson by Black Caviar whenever they met.

So since "Soul" ran to about 1 length of her yesterday, she was clearly below her best and I feel disappointed that everyone seems to be questioning how good she is.

To me she is a true Aussie Champion and when the chips were down she dug deep, stuck her neck out and won. How could we want anything more.

But ou have to bare in mind when Soul changed hands he also changed trainer so one could argue that under new training regime his true abilities were discovered. The mare won, she did good despite her jockeys screw up, she was not as impressive as she usually is, something went wrong, going by the disparaging remarks made by her connections prior to coming here they expected a much more definitive win. She looked very ready but I think they underestimated her competition however she won and well done that mare.

 

[dunkley]

I don't know a lot about racing, and have never heard of the mare before this week. I don't know if 'our' horses were faster, but looking at past race statistics, BC actually ran the slowest race at that distance she ever has. Knowing how tough long-haul travel is, I think she did damn well to even run, never mind win (in spite of, not because of, her jockey!). I would still have been sleeping by the pool

 

[caramel]

quoted from Black Caviar's Facebook page::

Andrew Bensley from Sky Racing reports after speaking to Peter Moody:

"Black Caviar has suffered two muscle tears during the Diamond Jubilee Stakes. Not the 1st time. Will enter quarantine in 20 minutes where she can be treated for muscle tears. She does 14 days at quarantine in UK then flies.

Peter Moody says she certainly would've felt the injuries in the race. Will return to Victoria in a fortnight before quarantine at Werribee. No decision on future until she gets home. Peter Moody said Black Caviar is battle weary. She went for a walk and a pick of grass after examination and she ate up everything."

hope BC gets better soon!

 

[lisa77]

That is true Amage, Soul could have improved 10 lengths. But he was with a top trainer in Australia and for those of us who have seen her first 21 wins it was clear she was below her best.

Sadly Peter Moody has confirmed she was injured, hopefully not career ending, but would explain her disappointing run.
.... disappointing considering how good we all know she is, most horses would doing well to win any G1, even by a nose!

 

[lisa77]

Also I meant to add that some of the horses she was beating in Australia included Ortensia, Star Witness, Alverta and Scenic Blast who are all sprinters who have performed on the world stage.
In her last few starts some of the quality dropped away as the trainers realised they couldn't beat her, so set their top horses for other races. The horses who ran against her were happy to be there racing for second. The exception being Haylist, who kept trying, all credit to his trainer for believing that one day he would prevail!

 

[giveachance]

I think its not unfair to say that yesterday was disappointing. That is not to take anything away from BC as she is obviously an incredible horse and to run and win the way she did when injured takes some doing.

However it is still disappointing, she is undoubtedly the best sprinter in the world but yesterday she did not run like one. Her winning time was relatively ordinary being 1.14.1, and infact the race run after it was faster at 1.13.87 (whilst I know that race times don't always give a accurate representation as it often depends on where the pace comes from early on and if theres a good pace maker). How could people not be disappointed.

We had one opportunity to see her run in this country and as a racing fan whose been excited about seeing her run since connections first mentioned it months ago it was just a shame to not see the horse that we all know she is (If that makes sense). Whether thats because of the injuries she's sustained or the Jockey being over confident, or the fact that she struggled with the track (as lets face it the straight track at Ascot is not the easiest) or the ground or even the journey, I would not like to say. The point remains we did not see the horse yesterday that is BC.

It also has nothing to do with winning margins, Sea the Stars rarely won a race by more than a length, its the way she ran that was disappointing.

Yes she still won, which as I said at the beginning was an incredible feat and she will go down in history (and deservedly so) as a true racing great but you cannot blame people, myself included for being disappointed.

 

[Bobbly]

I've just watched a youtube video of all of her previous 21 races. In every race she just cruises to the front and carries on to the line, often many lengths in front. In EVERY race her jockey Luke Nolan has used only hands and heels to get her across the line, no whip waving or slapping at all. This is obviously his normal way of riding her and in many cases she is easing up before she crosses the finish. It appears that this is the exact way he rode her at Ascot, she may well not have been quite right at the final stages but he trusted her and she won anyway. All credit to the pair of them, okay so it wasn't her usual 3 length win, but she braved it out and got there. She is one unique mare that's for sure and her connections have every right to be proud of her. Whether they carry on racing her or not, there will never be another Black Caviar, unbeaten or otherwise.

 

[lisa77]

Bobbly, she is a very special mare and it's not just her connections that are proud of her, I'm pretty sure all of Australia is pretty proud of her.

We knew she was brilliant, but we never really knew if she was tough... like you said she has never ever been challenged.
With what has come to light today, we now know how tough she is.