Boggle- USA bound!

[CanteringCarrot]

Haha it's easier to eat a whole tub and not feel utterly, utterly horrendous. I like their chocolate cate batter flavor

I get that! They have decent ice cream pops of sorts too as a low cal option.

I'm currently on a Halloween Oreos kick. They hit different than regular ones

 

[IrishMilo]

Didn't mean to offend, I apologise. My written word often comes out far more harshly than it does in my head. I genuinely hope you can find a solution that works for you both.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

At this point, if he were mine, I wouldn't mind a consult with CSU just to hear their opinion. Not necessarily any scanning or anything procedure wise. Sometimes a second set of eyes or hearing something, even the same thing, from another source helps me, but that's me.

Ultimately I would do the steroids and bring him home. See how it goes, and if it doesn't, as you said, he will be in an environment that he is comfortable in and treated like a king should you have to make that call.

 

[PurBee]

Michen im so devastated for you, to read of Bog’s update. It’s very unfair considering all you’re dedication to him recently.

One thing i did consider that *may* be a cause for the neuro symptoms, is bracken/fern poisoning. He’s up there in his turn-out in the forest and hills where bracken thrive (there) during the summer months, and i recall recently you moved his turn-out to a different plot due to him being bolshy with neighbouring horses? Are the forest turn-outs cleared of any ferns/bracken regularly?
Bracken is tasty to horses, unfortunately, and in a dry-lot like you have there, any green will likely be eaten. My gelding when young had a particular taste for it, giving me stress for months, chopping it down wherever i spotted it!

Bracken contains thiaminase which rapidly breaks down B1 in the body, causing fairly rapid neuro symptoms. B1 supplement is the cure, if caught in time. Sheep and cows get it too, it isnt a plant thats toxic to just horses. On the farming forum annually there’s reports of lost sheep due to escaping and gorging on bracken.

Heres more info on it:

Bracken fern Poisoning in Horses

Bracken fern (Pteridium aquilinum) is a conspicuous, deciduous, perennial fern that is commonly found worldwide. In fact, it has been said to be the fifth most distributed common weed species of the world. Bracken fern reproduces by spores and forms branched underground stems, sometimes forming...

www.horsedvm.com

The dvm says 1-2kg of fern is enough to cause symptoms. I err on caution with suggested amounts as the amount of toxins in plants vary hugely dependent on soil type and other environmental factors.

If youre unsure if there was bracken in his turn-out, try to scour the background of pics and videos youve taken of his areas to see if you spot any. Your barn sounds so fabulous i doubt there’s going to be bracken everywhere in the horse turn-out areas, but thought i’d mention about bracken/fern poisoning as you are up there in the forests and theyre the most likely toxic plant in such an environment to bring on fairly rapid neuro symptoms.

 

[Michen]

I'm looking for a solution that works for Boggle, not me.

What would be best for ME is carting him off to CSU, getting a full diagnostic and trying whatever crazy surgery I can just to have some chance of "keeping" him.

 

[Michen]

Michen im so devastated for you, to read of Bog’s update. It’s very unfair considering all you’re dedication to him recently.

One thing i did consider that *may* be a cause for the neuro symptoms, is bracken/fern poisoning. He’s up there in his turn-out in the forest and hills where bracken thrive (there) during the summer months, and i recall recently you moved his turn-out to a different plot due to him being bolshy with neighbouring horses? Are the forest turn-outs cleared of any ferns/bracken regularly?
Bracken is tasty to horses, unfortunately, and in a dry-lot like you have there, any green will likely be eaten. My gelding when young had a particular taste for it, giving me stress for months, chopping it down wherever i spotted it!

Bracken contains thiaminase which rapidly breaks down B1 in the body, causing fairly rapid neuro symptoms. B1 supplement is the cure, if caught in time. Sheep and cows get it too, it isnt a plant thats toxic to just horses. On the farming forum annually there’s reports of lost sheep due to escaping and gorging on bracken.

Heres more info on it:

Bracken fern Poisoning in Horses

Bracken fern (Pteridium aquilinum) is a conspicuous, deciduous, perennial fern that is commonly found worldwide. In fact, it has been said to be the fifth most distributed common weed species of the world. Bracken fern reproduces by spores and forms branched underground stems, sometimes forming...

www.horsedvm.com

The dvm says 1-2kg of fern is enough to cause symptoms. I err on caution with suggested amounts as the amount of toxins in plants vary hugely dependent on soil type and other environmental factors.

If youre unsure if there was bracken in his turn-out, try to scour the background of pics and videos youve taken of his areas to see if you spot any. Your barn sounds so fabulous i doubt there’s going to be bracken everywhere in the horse turn-out areas, but thought i’d mention about bracken/fern poisoning as you are up there in the forests and theyre the most likely toxic plant in such an environment to bring on fairly rapid neuro symptoms.

Purbee thank you. His new turn out had some grass/foliage in it as it hadn't been used in a while and was more "in" the forest that the others. It mostly looked like talk, stemmy grass but that's a great point and I will message the barn today to go and have a look. I'm going to add some pictures of it that I have to the post but I can't see anything from the photos... He's been in that turnout for around 2 weeks, hadn't yet got kicked out of it despite being bolshy when this started,

That said I don't think we even really have bracken in Colorado? I've never noticed it.. @Caol Ila ?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I'm looking for a solution that works for Boggle, not me.

What would be best for ME is carting him off to CSU, getting a full diagnostic and trying whatever crazy surgery I can just to have some chance of "keeping" him.

Yeah, and I don't think anyone here is suggesting that either. I wouldn't cart him off to do that. I only mentioned speaking with CSU because I might consider it. Not bringing the horse there. You don't have to. Sometimes I just need to hear things, even if they're the same things, from different sources. However, if I have a good relationship and trust with a vet, generally their one opinion can be enough.

You know best what works for Boggle. No one should question that.

 

[Caol Ila]

I've never seen bracken/ferns in the foothills of Colorado. It's too dry.

There's a plant called locoweed which can cause neuro symptoms, however. Grows everywhere, but usually they don't eat it. The name, however, suggests that they do sometimes, "loco" being Spanish slang for crazy.

 

[DabDab]

I'm looking for a solution that works for Boggle, not me.

What would be best for ME is carting him off to CSU, getting a full diagnostic and trying whatever crazy surgery I can just to have some chance of "keeping" him.

We all know that Michen, lots of us have been in similar positions. It's absolutely horrible being stuck between wanting to throw everything at a problem and trying desperately to work out what the best And fairest thing for the horse is.

And sometimes an initially 'conservative ' treatment option when there is no/low risk of harm from it does at least give time for you to find out more information and mull over the realities and possibilities of various treatment options.

 

[Michen]

Yeah, and I don't think anyone here is suggesting that either. I wouldn't cart him off to do that. I only mentioned speaking with CSU because I might consider it. Not bringing the horse there. You don't have to. Sometimes I just need to hear things, even if they're the same things, from different sources. However, if I have a good relationship and trust with a vet, generally their one opinion can be enough.

You know best what works for Boggle. No one should question that.

Yes definitely I've asked them to set something up, they are going to try and get a consult today but depends who is around.

 

[Michen]

I've never seen bracken/ferns in the foothills of Colorado. It's too dry.

There's a plant called locoweed which can cause neuro symptoms, however. Grows everywhere, but usually they don't eat it. The name, however, suggests that they do sometimes, "loco" being Spanish slang for crazy.

Thanks I'll have them look for anything at the barn..

 

[druid]

Oh the other side of the coin I've been involved in a good few basket surgeries in KY with dceent prognostic outcomes (admittedly, mostly as broodmares or hacking). The surgery is pretty gnarly but the recoveries were surprisingly good.

 

[Michen]

Oh the other side of the coin I've been involved in a good few basket surgeries in KY with dceent prognostic outcomes (admittedly, mostly as broodmares or hacking). The surgery is pretty gnarly but the recoveries were surprisingly good.

Is it something you would put your own horse through? Curious to know more. I thought it was mainly young horses.

 

[Michen]

@Caol Ila on the phone to Rood and Riddle to try and get a consult with Dr Reed now- a few people have mentioned him.

 

[Caol Ila]

He's one of the best. Fingers crossed he gives you some useful insights.

This guy, for UK people who won't recognise his name: https://roodandriddle.com/dr-stephen-reed/

 

[Michen]

He's one of the best. Fingers crossed he gives you some useful insights.

This guy, for UK people who won't recognise his name: https://roodandriddle.com/dr-stephen-reed/

So they said to email everything over but that without CT or myelogram there's not much value they can add

A myleogram could be done at his current vets, but again, with a GA.

F*** what a rollercoaster. I need to speak to my vet properly this morning and not get swept up in diagnostic alley again.

 

[Caol Ila]

Blah. It's just so tricky.

Other than peace of mind and wanting to know exactly what you're dealing with, I guess the question is whether or not diagnostics will significantly change treatment modes/outcomes? If the vets had the information on those scans, would they do something different than if they didn't?

 

[scats]

Make sure you are looking after yourself too Michen x

 

[druid]

Dr Reed is who I worked with. He does travel to do surgery in other clinics (Saratoga and Wellington).

If I thought the horse would cope with the recovery, yes I would consider basket surgery for my own

 

[Michen]

Blah. It's just so tricky.

Other than peace of mind and wanting to know exactly what you're dealing with, I guess the question is whether or not diagnostics will significantly change treatment modes/outcomes? If the vets had the information on those scans, would they do something different than if they didn't?

These are all things I need to ask and i believe the answer is this:

- Something steroids can treat
- Something nothing can treat and PTS
- Something an extremely invasive surgery could treat or improve (at least reduce the grade of ataxia). Which I was totally against but then you get the swing of a post like Druid, where there is some success, and it sends you down a spiral again.

 

[PurBee]

Purbee thank you. His new turn out had some grass/foliage in it as it hadn't been used in a while and was more "in" the forest that the others. It mostly looked like talk, stemmy grass but that's a great point and I will message the barn today to go and have a look. I'm going to add some pictures of it that I have to the post but I can't see anything from the photos... He's been in that turnout for around 2 weeks, hadn't yet got kicked out of it despite being bolshy when this started,

That said I don't think we even really have bracken in Colorado? I've never noticed it.. @Caol Ila ?

View attachment 125077
View attachment 125078

Its distribution is vast worldwide so thought it worth a mention, as the cure is to give B1, to an animal that can present as if nothing will cure it!

Here is boggy west ireland the ferns grow mainly on the sandy banks and even lodge mostly in limestone walls, preferring sandy alkaline soils rather than the wet soils.
The distribution for the US is in most states, except Nebraska.

Range map © John Kartesz, Floristic Synthesis of North America http://bonap.org/ State Color Key Species present in state and native Species present in state and exotic Species not present in state County Color Key Species present and not rare Species present and rare Species extirpated (historic) Species extinct Species noxious Species exotic and present Native species, but adventive in state Eradicated Questionable presence​

Range map for Pteridium aquilinum

from - http://www.swcoloradowildflowers.com/Fern Enlarged Photo Pages/pteridium aquilinum.htm

I cant see any in your pics yet the soil looks sandy enough. The bulbous roots of ferns would easily get trampled by horses, so its likely they cant establish in the type of turn-outs you have, and more likely by the protected fenceline.
It was a left-field suggestion with an easy cure, which you and boggle so deserve after all youve been through.

The locoweed looks like a gorgeous wildflower plant, gosh..sometimes the most beautiful looking plants are so toxic!

Sending you and Bog healing recovery vibes from Ireland and wont stop until we hear BBB (Bog has Bounced Back!)

 

[EventingMum]

So sorry, what you're going through is horrendous. Although not likely to be relevent given all the veterinary imput you have I thought I'd just mention this. Three days a livery came in from the field hardly able to walk, he was throwing a foreleg out at a weird angle and very ataxic - back end staggering all over the place. Bloods came back clear so the next morning his neck was x-rayed which showed nothing so the next step was a CT. Before that could be organised he gradually became a bit better. The foreleg turned out to be a corn which being a Tb he was very dramatic about but the vets surmise that the cause of the ataxia was a haematoma pressing on his spine which was small enough to start to disburse and relieve the pressure. He has improved dramatically now much to everyone's relief.

Trust your own judgement here, consider all the vet advice but you know Bog best - we're all here to support you x

 

[Ceriann]

What’s timing on your second opinion for the x-Ray? Could the consult with Dr R not explore those questions based on some assumptions (best and worse case) to help you decide re a CT etc?

 

[Michen]

What’s timing on your second opinion for the x-Ray? Could the consult with Dr R not explore those questions based on some assumptions (best and worse case) to help you decide re a CT etc?

I think we will here back from the radiographer today. And I've emailed the practice to get the info I need to send to Dr R- but not sure when he'd look at it all.

CT would involve transporting him to another hospital
Mylogram could be done where he is

Both need GA's though. I'm just not sure it would be the right thing to do but I'm going to remain open minded until I've spoken to the vet this AM.

 

[ycbm]

Oh the other side of the coin I've been involved in a good few basket surgeries in KY with dceent prognostic outcomes (admittedly, mostly as broodmares or hacking). The surgery is pretty gnarly but the recoveries were surprisingly good.

What does "pretty gnarly" actually entail?

I'm not sure there's any vet in the UK who will carry out that procedure. It seems to be considered unethical, which also seems to be how Michen's US vet feels about it.
.

 

[Michen]

What does "pretty gnarly" actually entail?

I'm not sure there's any vet in the UK who will carry out that procedure. It seems to be considered unethical, which also seems to be how Michen's US vet feels about it.
.

They do it at Rainbow it looks like. I dunno, I guess it’s not as common.

I doubt he’d be a candidate anyway from what I’m reading it sounds like you need to do it before the symptoms are severe.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I’m sure you’re getting top quality advice Michen but, if it were Mim (and appreciating Mim and Bog are different but it’s my only lens, really), I’d probably want to buy myself time.

Time to think, time for trauma and inflammation to settle, time for any natural level of healing or stabilisation to take place. So pain management, inflammation management and waiting is probably my natural inclination, as long as I felt Mim was coping ok.

I appreciate that waiting is absolutely godawful for the human but as long as the horse is stabilised and pain managed, I think it can be beneficial to monitor a bit before deciding on something really interventional.

My reasoning here is linked to my own experience of my neck injury. I was absolutely incapable of moving properly when the discs originally herniated, and the inflammation caused my spinal processes to impinge on the nerves. Inflammation also makes X-rays very difficult.

So once we’d controlled the inflammation, we could properly assess the level of damage. I was lucky that feeling came back in my legs and arm quite quickly and that made me a lot less freaked out. At the point that I felt less protective of my neck (the instinct not to move it was unlike anything I’ve experienced before) then I felt like I could grasp the extent of my injury more and make better decisions.

From time to time, I still tweak my neck and then I get inflammation and loss of feeling in my hand and foot, it’s not just the initial injury that can cause inflammation and neurological symptoms to come on quickly.

I know that it must be so much harder with not knowing what’s going on in his head but if a wait and see option is feasible, then I wouldn’t rule it out if you’re happy he’s as comfortable as he can be.

 

[druid]

These are all things I need to ask and i believe the answer is this:

- Something steroids can treat
- Something nothing can treat and PTS
- Something an extremely invasive surgery could treat or improve (at least reduce the grade of ataxia). Which I was totally against but then you get the swing of a post like Druid, where there is some success, and it sends you down a spiral again.

I think you're making a very sensible plan and one thing I would push for is trying steroids before PTS, even as a hail mary. If PTS is the other option then steroids with the associated risks are worth a try in most cases.

What does "pretty gnarly" actually entail?

I'm not sure there's any vet in the UK who will carry out that procedure. It seems to be considered unethical, which also seems to be how Michen's US vet feels about it.
.

Rood and Riddle have a good explanation of the surgery on their facebook page if you google. Much better explained than I would.

 

[Michen]

I think you're making a very sensible plan and one thing I would push for is trying steroids before PTS, even as a hail mary. If PTS is the other option then steroids with the associated risks are worth a try in most cases.


Rood and Riddle have a good explanation of the surgery on their facebook page if you google. Much better explained than I would.

Sensible plan being, taking him home and waiting rather than trying to do more diagnostics?

 

[ycbm]

Rood and Riddle have a good explanation of the surgery on their facebook page if you google. Much better explained than I would.

Thank you. I was looking for a warts and all explanation of how bad it is for the horse, to understand why most vets seem to consider it unethical, not an explanation of the mechanics of the procedure from vets who recommend it.
.