Boggle- USA bound!

[Michen]

Thank you. I was looking for a warts and all explanation of how bad it is for the horse, to understand why most vets seem to consider it unethical, not an explanation of the mechanics of procedure from vets who recommend it.
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I can't say I know for sure if most vets do- it was just the vet who radiographed last night who was very against it. I haven't spoken to my main vet about it yet.

I've tried to do some reading, there are some great reports- like this 80% of patients can improve at least one ataxia grade after treatment. 54% can improve two grades or more with successful surgery. 33% of horses perform athletically as a result of successful treatment. And some not great ones on the horse forums.

And I suppose success is defined for most owners as return to athletic function.

I think it's highly unlikely he'd be a candidate or that I'd do it but I'm going to try and remain open minded for now.

 

[Boulty]

Slightly random / off the wall thought but (if it’s a thing over there) it might be worth asking vet if laser therapy may be worth a go alongside the steroids and other treatments. I’m not saying it’s a miracle cure buuuuut if there is something inflammatory going on it might help a little and should have no side effects (we’ve recently had a load of CPD on it where I work and annecdotally through other people I know that have used it a lot I know of some really positive outcomes, albeit this is with small animals but the guy who ran our work talks said they’ve used it a lot in horses with decent results). Just a random thought if trying medical treatment is the route you’re going down.

 

[Michen]

Comments here are interesting, and the comments within the bad experience one https://www.facebook.com/Roodandrid...eurologic-exams-surgery-te/10155642509950423/

 

[druid]

Sensible plan being, taking him home and waiting rather than trying to do more diagnostics?

If your vet isn't concerned about him injuring himself either trailering or just living due to his level of ataxia then steroids and rest aren't likely to make things worse would be my impression.

 

[druid]

Thank you. I was looking for a warts and all explanation of how bad it is for the horse, to understand why most vets seem to consider it unethical, not an explanation of the mechanics of the procedure from vets who recommend it.
.

I don't feel it's worse than a complicated colic surgery in terms of recovery for the horse. There's plenty of horses who go on to have an atheletic career afterwards and some who don't, much like colic surgery or fracture repairs.

 

[doodle]

I know it is an entirely different situation. But 2 months ago a vet wrote off my horse. He diagnosed his arthritis had got suddenly much worse and I would need to pts in the next couple of days. I was devastated. I couldn't bear to make that decision but I could bear to see him sore. I decided to stuff full of painkillers, joint suppliment and ulcer stuff to give me a couple of days.

I was then so upset to think of him sad and sore and struggling. My best friend pointed out that when he is not happy you know. And looking at him he is very happy, bright and not needing pts right now.

He responded very quickly and became very comfortable and was still bright and happy and enjoying life.

Long story short, he was mis diagnosed! It was not arthritis and there was no need to pts and he will fully recover (after a change of vet)

I am not saying he has been misdiagnosed. I'm saying while he is bright and happy you have time to take a step back, see how he responds and go from there. Time is magic. It kills us to not know what is happening but sometimes all you need to do is wait. Then a path will become clear.

Give yourself time. Get all the options and opinions YOU need. He is fine in this moment and you may get a very certain way ahead.

 

[ycbm]

I don't feel it's worse than a complicated colic surgery in terms of recovery for the horse. There's plenty of horses who go on to have an atheletic career afterwards and some who don't, much like colic surgery or fracture repairs.

Thank you that's very helpful.
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[Bionic Boy]

I can’t give advice and offer no opinion but sending you the biggest of hugs.

 

[teapot]

How is he today M?

 

[Michen]

How is he today M?

I had a text update to say he's the same, eating well etc. No worse. Waiting for vet to call but no doubt it'll be in 20 minutes when I have to be on a call!

 

[SO1]

My heart breaks for you Michen.

My understanding of the situation is that the scan will tell you if what he has wrong with him could be resolved by the operation and the vets are confident the problem is definitely in his neck? The operation is not something that could be offered to him if he was in the UK for ethical reasons? If he has this problem the only cure is the operation? Are they are any added risks with the operation if he has not fully recovered from his pneumonia?

I think you need to decide if you want to operate or not. If you don't want to operate no point in paying 15k for the scan as from what you are saying the options from scan are

1. It is the condition that may be helped with an operation which is controversial or novel as not offered here in the UK.
2. Something that could be treated by steroids
3. Something that cannot be treated and only option PTS.

What about the outcome that they do the scan and cannot find the problem in the neck?

Would delaying the operation have an impact on it's success? I am presuming that the operation would require a long period of box rest and would that have any risks with his breathing and his hock issues if I remember rightly he has been treated for arthritis?

I know you are on good terms with your UK vet could you ask for his opinion?

Are the vets absolutely sure the problem stems from the neck?

If he is comfortable at the moment and eating I think give yourself more time to think about if you would have the operation or not or not and go from there.

 

[Michen]

Ok! Here’s the crux of the hour long convo I just had with the vet.

- Basket surgery is only really something people do to get a horse to return to athletic function or breeding or whatnot. So given all I need him to be is a pasture pet, it’s not something I’d put him through unless it was PTS or do surgery.

- He has improved today! Almost a whole grade of ataxia. Yesterday he was still so bad they couldn’t safely do all the neuro tests. Today he is very close to being safe to go in a field. He’s jolly, dragging everyone everywhere (thank god they love him), spooking at stuff he’s walked past a million times before and generally being uber cute and totally worshipped by the ICU staff

- They are said the range of motion in his neck is rather remarkable given he’s busy arching it, flexing it and generally using it a lot. FFS Bog.

- We spoke in depths about diagnostics. Apparently CSU basically wouldn’t be able to CT scan him because of the shape of his neck- the radiographer thinks it would be a struggle to put him in the scanner. That leaves a mylogram which is 2d rather than 3d but would be done at current practice. They wouldn’t be able to do it until Monday/Tuesday anyway, so the plan there is to monitor over the weekend but we had a very frank convo and the reality is that it’s just helpful for me- because it will maybe help indicate if he will ever fully recover or not (ie ride). I don’t need to know that, time will tell, and I certainly don’t need to know enough to risk him in any way. So that’s a no- unless anything changes and we do need more answers.

- We are going to give him a dose of steroids- not the full whack. And see if that makes any difference in the next 24 hours as to whether we do another.

- I am not going to take him home today as currently he is receiving certain things via IV that are best given for 5 days. Given he’s doing well on supportive care and everything at the moment, and he’s happy, I’d prefer he stays over the weekend.

- I’ll be about $10,000 plus and a dive trip down but f*** if Boggle can pull of some sort of recovery to live, just live, I will never go away again as that seems to be the catalyst for everything

There’s hope guys. That damn plucky little horse.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Omg that is amazing I'm so happy for you I would just leave him there give him steroids and ask the other treatment and fingers crossed he will be ok.

Sorry if I don't make much sense but been drinking alot of wine tonight and I think you should too and eat loafs of ice cream I'm so so glad that his better.

You are both amazing but bless him his not ready to bail out yet such a strong pony

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

Oh Boggle
I'm thrilled for you both that there has been an improvement....I hope with all the positive vibes I can muster that he's coming through this xxxx

 

[EllieBeast]

I’ve been silently following this whole thread and have absolutely everything crossed for you and your amazing Boggle.

I’m so pleased to read this latest update and will double cross everything in the hope it continues and he, again, manages to ‘do a boggle’ and bounce back like the absolute legend he is

 

[DabDab]

for the steroids working

 

[BallyRoanBaubles]

Keeping everything crossed

 

[Kunoichi73]

So glad to hear some positive news.

 

[Jeni the dragon]

Just caught up today and I'm so glad things are improving!
Massive hugs to you both! He's certainly putting you through the wringer!

 

[SEL]

This is amazing news but you must be getting grey hair, wrinkles and dependency issues with alcohol and ice cream after everything he's put you through!!

I have an ongoing problem with my neck and it's excruciating when it plays up - but it does get better with drugs, rest and my physio. I'm very much hoping Bog tweaked something painful and it'll fix.

Who needs holidays anyway?!

 

[Dave's Mam]

Everything crossed.

 

[TPO]

That's great that you have a plan, hopefully that has lightened some of the load.

Given Bogs' habit of doing the unexpected, keeping him in hospital to start on the steroids is a good shout. Chip had IV ones initially then went home with oral tablets. One less thing for you to worry about.

It reads like the discussions were helpful and straightened some thoughts out.

I'll continue to keep everything crossed. Thinking of you both

 

[Michen]

This is amazing news but you must be getting grey hair, wrinkles and dependency issues with alcohol and ice cream after everything he's put you through!!

I have an ongoing problem with my neck and it's excruciating when it plays up - but it does get better with drugs, rest and my physio. I'm very much hoping Bog tweaked something painful and it'll fix.

Who needs holidays anyway?!

He's going to finish me off for sure. Luckily this was a free one, albiet an incredible chance to spend 10 days on a bahamas liveaboard with tiger sharks but I'm relieved the only loss is a few hundred dollars of flights

I'd much rather hang out with Bog, anyway!

 

[Michen]

That's great that you have a plan, hopefully that has lightened some of the load.

Given Bogs' habit of doing the unexpected, keeping him in hospital to start on the steroids is a good shout. Chip had IV ones initially then went home with oral tablets. One less thing for you to worry about.

It reads like the discussions were helpful and straightened some thoughts out.

I'll continue to keep everything crossed. Thinking of you both

Definitely and it's great he's not in ISO now so I can spend lots of time with him, unlike last time which as just brutal.

 

[OldNag]

Holidays are so vastly overrated.... (Tell yourself that).

So glad there is some improvement. Keeping it all crossed. Come on Boggle xx

 

[Surbie]

Everything crossed for the steroids to work. So glad he's improving. Come on Boggle!!

Hope you can get some rest too.

 

[Bradsmum]

Great news, have a tear in my eye. Come on Boggle we all have everything crossed for you.

 

[Cragrat]

That horse! Words fail me - I hardly dare breathe - keeping everything crossed he continues to recover.

 

[Michen]

That horse! Words fail me - I hardly dare breathe - keeping everything crossed he continues to recover.

I know I don't even want to get my hopes up but I feel totally elated, I know I probably shouldn't.

 

[DressageCob]

He loves to keep you on your toes! Get some Ben and Jerry’s in you. You need your strength with him!