Boggle- USA bound!

[Tarragon]

Nothing more to add other than what has already been said. I hope that you are getting support where you are, and feel the love from all of us on here.
You will make the right decision because you are you and Boggle is Boggle and Boggle is yours ((((())))))

 

[Red-1]

Sending you and Bog hugs my boy suddenly went severely ataxic 3 years ago he was too bad to travel anywhere he deteriorated badly and on a friday vets told me he had less than a week to live I was about to arrange pts but over the weekend he didn’t get worse by the Monday slightly better as we pumped him with a high dose of steroids and he stabilised gradually over the coming days and weeks, it took weeks for the SAAP tests to show inflammation going down from severe to moderate to clear and he stayed on the high steroids for around 2 months. After that I rode him for another year then he had a minor incident which vet said was neurological related so he has been happily retired since and no more episodes to date currently. Fingers crossed the steroids work for Bog

Yes, with Jay, he took around 6 weeks for the improvement to be obvious. As the X rays were good, I chose not to CT scan. If he hadn't improved, then he would have been PTS.

I really feel for you michen.

 

[j1ffy]

Michen - I had a real shock opening up this thread, hoping to see more happy pics of your and Bog's adventures. I'm so so sorry to read the latest, I hope he pulls through. As others have said there are no good or bad decisions here, you always do your very best for him. Huge hugs x

 

[Barton Bounty]

I honestly feel like I’m going to pass out with how overwhelmed I feel right now. This is so much worse than the pneumonia, I don’t know why or how but it is.

The thought of having to have Boggle pts makes me want to throw up.

Im so sorry you are going through this, i still feel like you! Overwhelming sickness at losing the absolute love of my life. Even worse was he was getting better, his blood stopped clotting , his colon tore and that was it. I had an hour to try to swallow it. Its an utterly horrific thing. Seeing him all hooked up has brought it all back but the vets will really try their best for him..
Sending lots of hugs to you and Boggle

 

[Ceriann]

Absolutely nothing wrong with the conservative route or testing whether a CT will change that decision. Absolutely no doubt here that you have nothing but Bog’s best interests as a priority and everyone here is rooting for you both. I’m sure the vets will understand the different options you have and help you with the decision too.

 

[Cragrat]

Oh Michen, how blooming sad and unfair all this is.

I too totally agree that putting an ataxic horse through a GA, especially when it is unlikely to change his treatment, is probably more for the vets benefit than yours.

Steroids, home, and lots of love. And luck. You are due some!

 

[Michen]

Thank you everyone. 4am and I got a little sleep.

Sorry can’t remember the post but yes he’s been tested for everything, EPM etc. All negative.

With the clicking in the neck and how it came on after the fall I just can’t help but think there’s been a time bomb of something floating around in there.

I want to do everything, anything that is right for him and I will make the money work IF that’s what’s right but I don’t want to do it just because I can.

Apparently there is a surgery they can do now (at CSU one of the few places in the world) for this sort of thing aka if the arthritis is impeding on the spinal cord and it has had plenty of success but plenty of horrible side experiences. My vet said it’s brutal on the horse and not something they’d ever do. But I guess it’s worth me talking to them about it. Here’s one of the more successful stories. https://cvmbs.source.colostate.edu/horse-gets-his-legs-back-under-him-after-a-tumultuous-journey/

My head is just spinning.

 

[FlyingCircus]

I'm really sorry to hear about what has happened to Bog over the last few months

On the surgery, I'd consider his quality of life afterwards. From what you've written previously, he doesn't seem a happy to retire in a field sort.

I have been in a similar position with my mare on investigation of her many issues and ultimately did decide to call it a day with doing any further diagnostics as it was upsetting her and costing me a fortune to really get no further forward in making her more comfortable or fixable.

Again, really sorry. It is especially hard when you have the means/money so want to throw what you can to fix a situation but there is a question as to whether that would even help.

 

[ycbm]

Thank you everyone. 4am and I got a little sleep.

Sorry can’t remember the post but yes he’s been tested for everything, EPM etc. All negative.

With the clicking in the neck and how it came on after the fall I just can’t help but think there’s been a time bomb of something floating around in there.

I want to do everything, anything that is right for him and I will make the money work IF that’s what’s right but I don’t want to do it just because I can.

Apparently there is a surgery they can do now (at CSU one of the few places in the world) for this sort of thing aka if the arthritis is impeding on the spinal cord and it has had plenty of success but plenty of horrible side experiences. My vet said it’s brutal on the horse and not something they’d ever do. But I guess it’s worth me talking to them about it. Here’s one of the more successful stories. https://cvmbs.source.colostate.edu/horse-gets-his-legs-back-under-him-after-a-tumultuous-journey/

My head is just spinning.

I don't know of a vet in this country that regards that operation as ethical M. That horse was also 16 months old at the time. And had classic wobblers, a channel narrowing in C3 and C3/4 misalignment, not an injury with associated arthritis, which is progressive. Lastly, I have a bar in my arm and it hurts from time to time and it's not even trying to stop something bending that's supposed to bend. I would not entertain the idea of immobilising a foot of neck in a horse which is intended to flex in the middle.

I'm sorry to sound dismissive but I hate to see you being tortured by what seem to me to be unrealistic prospects of a fix

 

[Boulty]

So so so sorry that you’re going through this with him. It sucks, it’s not fair & neither of you deserve it.

My own experience of head / neck CT in horses is that you CAN do it under sedation if you have the right sort of CT scanner (I think it needs to be one where you can move the scanner ring rather than the horse?) but you can’t get as far down the neck (I think due to restrictions in how you can position). When my Welsh D was done they could only get as far as C3 with him awake (which was ok as the thing we most wanted to CT was head / poll area and X-rays / joint ultrasound was ok for the rest).

I don’t think there’s a “wrong” option here & can totally understand that need to know. What is probably the most important question to answer is whether doing a CT and having that clearer picture is likely to significantly increase the chances of a positive outcome / if there is anything only identifiable with CT that they might be able to do any kind of more targeted treatment on. If it’s unlikely to give you more treatment options then nothing wrong with trying steroids and seeing how he responds.

 

[Michen]

I don't know of a vet in this country that regards that operation as ethical M. That horse was also 16 months old at the time. And had classic wobblers, a channel narrowing in C3 and C3/4 misalignment, not an injury with associated arthritis, which is progressive. Lastly, I have a bar in my arm and it hurts from time to time and it's not even trying to stop something bending that's supposed to bend. I would not entertain the idea of immobilising a foot of neck in a horse which is intended to flex in the middle.

I'm sorry to sound dismissive but I hate to see you being tortured by what seem to me to be unrealistic prospects of a fix

I know. The vet said he hated the surgery. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.

 

[Michen]

So so so sorry that you’re going through this with him. It sucks, it’s not fair & neither of you deserve it.

My own experience of head / neck CT in horses is that you CAN do it under sedation if you have the right sort of CT scanner (I think it needs to be one where you can move the scanner ring rather than the horse?) but you can’t get as far down the neck (I think due to restrictions in how you can position). When my Welsh D was done they could only get as far as C3 with him awake (which was ok as the thing we most wanted to CT was head / poll area and X-rays / joint ultrasound was ok for the rest).

I don’t think there’s a “wrong” option here & can totally understand that need to know. What is probably the most important question to answer is whether doing a CT and having that clearer picture is likely to significantly increase the chances of a positive outcome / if there is anything only identifiable with CT that they might be able to do any kind of more targeted treatment on. If it’s unlikely to give you more treatment options then nothing wrong with trying steroids and seeing how he responds.

Was the horse wobbly though? She said that’s what makes it almost impossible to do a standing one on an ataxic horse because you need to sedate them and that makes them even more unsteady, when they need to be totally still

 

[Ceriann]

Go through all the options - because you can arm yourself with all the information and it will help you with the decisions that need to be made. Weigh them all up as objectively as you can - so hard I know when you love him so much. I’ve read about the surgery and the potential complications for any horse but particularly adult horses are daunting - the vet’s view likely echos that.

 

[Michen]

Thank you Ceriann that's good advice.

I have never in my life felt pain like this, even when I lost my last horse which was horrendous it's just not even comparable.

Of course Boggle was never going to live forever but FFS, 11 years old and with so much love for life it's just desperately unfair for him let alone me.

 

[meesha]

Can you take him home on steroids to see how he goes but with all the options to hand you can give yourself some time to make an informed choice. You have been through a lot.

 

[Boulty]

No horse wasn’t ataxic… although I believe they did still struggle as amount of sedation required to make horse tolerate procedure did make keeping him upright slightly challenging so can understand in a horse already wobbly that its an extra layer of challenge (& also if wanting to do all the neck / as much of the neck as will fit in the scanner then might not be doable without GA anyway)

 

[YourValentine]

Possibly daft question, sorry, but has a trapped nerve or similar from rolling been ruled out?
I trapped a nerve in my neck/shoulder couldn't turn my head and right arm was totally numb and had limited movement due to numbness and pain.

I can imagine that if I'd been a horse I'd have presented as ataxic.

Resolved with physio & acupuncture and a hefty dose of painkillers.

Sending you and Boggle all the hugs. Horrible position to be in.

 

[Michen]

Possibly daft question, sorry, but has a trapped nerve or similar from rolling been ruled out?
I trapped a nerve in my neck/shoulder couldn't turn my head and right arm was totally numb and had limited movement due to numbness and pain.

I can imagine that if I'd been a horse I'd have presented as ataxic.

Resolved with physio & acupuncture and a hefty dose of painkillers.

Sending you and Boggle all the hugs. Horrible position to be in.

Not a daft question, and something that was mentioned on admission. But I think with the severity of the ataxia and the fact the improvement was some marginal it feels a bit less likely given he’s been whacked with anti inflammatories etc.

I just had a long chat with one of my UK horse friends who is also a NP and just excellent at being realistic and pragmatic. Echoing what you’ve all said really- the CT is for a diagnosis not a treatment.

If there was any kind of targeted treatment that would be different but given there’s not, really what’s the point? So I can have a better prognosis? Time will give me that anyway.

If I have to let him go do I want it to be on the table at a vet hospital or do I want him to be at home, where he’s spent the last bit of time being spoiled rotten.

I will speak to the vet this morning but I can’t imagine anything is going to change my mind on this now.

 

[Michen]

When times are rough it seems 5am ice cream, greys anatomy and hiding under a duvet are the only option. And Pepper.

I now feel very sick as well as sad

 

[DressageCob]

When times are rough it seems 5am ice cream, greys anatomy and hiding under a duvet are the only option. And Pepper.

I now feel very sick as well as sad

View attachment 125072

That ice cream will do no good at all. Not nearly enough calories. Go out and buy some proper stuff.

 

[IrishMilo]

Poor Bog, what a horrible update. If he were mine I would pump him to the eyeballs with paid meds and take today to say goodbye. I see no benefit to him in keeping him going, which is always my main priority when looking for what to do. Moving him will be painful too, and he is most likely not particularly interested in being spoilt in his own stable right now, but wanting to be free from pain.

 

[Michen]

Poor Bog, what a horrible update. If he were mine I would pump him to the eyeballs with paid meds and take today to say goodbye. I see no benefit to him in keeping him going, which is always my main priority when looking for what to do. Moving him will be painful too, and he is most likely not particularly interested in being spoilt in his own stable right now, but wanting to be free from pain.

I'm sorry IM but I find that post so offensive and insensitive. I would never, ever unnecessarily keep him going in any pain if there was no hope. But by your reasoning he should have been put down when had pneumonia, where he was truly, utterly miserable. He is comfortable, bright, cheerful in his stable and extremely happy to shove me around for a pack of polos and have a good groom.

I am not going to PTS a bright horse whose currently having every available bit of supportive care thrown at him to keep him comfortable if there is something else to try that could work, or indeed just time.

 

[DabDab]

Oo IM...perhaps not what you were intending but wow your wording is insensitive.

High dose of steroids, take him home and wait and see certainly feels like the most pragmatic option for both you and him Michen, will keep absolutely everything crossed for some kind of recovery x

 

[TPO]

I'm sorry IM but I find that post so offensive and insensitive. I would never, ever unnecessarily keep him going in any pain if there was no hope. But by your reasoning he should have been put down when had pneumonia, where he was truly, utterly miserable. He is comfortable, bright, cheerful in his stable and extremely happy to shove me around for a pack of polos and have a good groom.

I am not going to PTS a bright horse whose currently having every available bit of supportive care thrown at him to keep him comfortable if there is something else to try that could work, or indeed just time.

I'm the first to think "pts for their benefit" with my own. Chip was utterly miserable and wasting away.

If I hadn't agreed to pump him full of steroids he wouldn't be here. Now <touch wood> he is absolutely thriving

M, no one could doubt that, despite your commitment to him, you'd do anything other than put Bog first even to your personal detriment.

I appreciate options are being discussed and, to me, it doesn't read as if you're close to having to make any decision, so please try not to jump ahead.

I'm firmly in the keep him going and start steroids [while you consider all options] camp

 

[Caol Ila]

That was a bit harsh, IM.

Michen, is it possible to have even a phone consult with the neuro specialists at CSU, or have your vets done that? Not just about CT or no, but about the whole picture. They have kind of a horsey neurology ward. I'm assuming, of course, that your vet is more of a general practice (as most first opinion practices are) and doesn't have its own equine neurologists on hand.

Weipers (Glasgow Uni) is my first opinion practice at the moment, so all our vets have easy access to the uni's specialists, but when I've been at other practices, they would consult the large uni vet hospitals for really tricky, difficult problems.

 

[Michen]

That was a bit harsh, IM.

Michen, is it possible to have even a phone consult with the neuro specialists at CSU, or have your vets done that? Not just about CT or no, but about the whole picture. They have kind of a horsey neurology ward. I'm assuming, of course, that your vet is more of a general practice (as most first opinion practices are) and doesn't have its own equine neurologists on hand.

I think that's our step today, his treating vet at the moment is an internal medicine specialist. She has excellent contacts though here and in Kentucky (his radiographs have already been sent there from last night for a second opinion in case) so I have no doubt she will get whoever needs to be involved, involved.

 

[Caol Ila]

I think that's our step today, his treating vet at the moment is an internal medicine specialist. She has excellent contacts though here and in Kentucky (his radiographs have already been sent there from last night for a second opinion in case) so I have no doubt she will get whoever needs to be involved, involved.

That sounds like a great step. Is it Rood and Riddle in Kentucky?

 

[Michen]

That sounds like a great step. Is it Rood and Riddle in Kentucky?

Not actually sure!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

That ice cream will do no good at all. Not nearly enough calories. Go out and buy some proper stuff.

I thought this too. Halo Top? Come on, this is Ben & Jerry's worthy!

 

[Michen]

I thought this too. Halo Top? Come on, this is Ben & Jerry's worthy!

Haha it's easier to eat a whole tub and not feel utterly, utterly horrendous. I like their chocolate cate batter flavor