Boggle- USA bound!

[Michen]

Your post on the wobblers FB page suddenly showed up in my timeline and I thought oh fk - you must be all over the place right now.

It does sound like he'll be ok non ridden but that in itself is hard to accept. You have an amazing bunch of vets on board and I hope they can help.

Is there a Tellington Touch therapist around? EPM / neuro is Linda Tellington's specialist subject.

I actually bought the book on that and am waiting for it to arrive in the post!!! I wonder if there's a therapist though that's a good idea, I'll look into it. Thank you.

I just feel a bit defeated really. With modern medicine there's so few things that we can't fix or manage in some way, but this is just out of my hands. I've wasted $6,000 dollars on EPM meds and now another few grand bill will be coming my way for emergency visit/steroids. He get's e stim accupuncture almost twice monthly, I honestly don't think I've had a month since october where my vet bill hasn't added at least another $1,000 dollars on average, not including the $1300 a month EPM meds.

I don't begrudge a penny (although the above sounds like it, but I don't, I'm just being realistic about the insane costs here), it's just so frustrating that there's a limit in what I can do for him. Thank goodness I am in a position to do it, I couldn't bear it if I had to PTS based on finances, I really couldn't. I have a friend with a horse who she's selling that desperately wants me to have it (horse is difficult/unusual but we get on really, really well), but I just cannot and will not take on a second horse because I want to be able to continue to do everything I can for Bog, and a second horse would make that very difficult financially.

If someone told me that another $50,000 would fix him, I'd go sell my truck and trailer tomorrow (which I need to do really anyway), move into a tent for a bit and do it. But it won't.

I also can't deny that in those five minutes of thinking this was the end, there was a tiny part of me that felt relief, closure. I know that's horrible but it would be clear cut- I would never or will not have him go through another "proper" episode like the initial onset.

 

[BBP]

I actually bought the book on that and am waiting for it to arrive in the post!!! I wonder if there's a therapist though that's a good idea, I'll look into it. Thank you.

I just feel a bit defeated really. With modern medicine there's so few things that we can't fix or manage in some way, but this is just out of my hands. I've wasted $6,000 dollars on EPM meds and now another few grand bill will be coming my way for emergency visit/steroids. He get's e stim accupuncture almost twice monthly, I honestly don't think I've had a month since october where my vet bill hasn't added at least another $1,000 dollars on average, not including the $1300 a month EPM meds.

I don't begrudge a penny (although the above sounds like it, but I don't, I'm just being realistic about the insane costs here), it's just so frustrating that there's a limit in what I can do for him. Thank goodness I am in a position to do it, I couldn't bear it if I had to PTS based on finances, I really couldn't. I have a friend with a horse who she's selling that desperately wants me to have it (horse is difficult/unusual but we get on really, really well), but I just cannot and will not take on a second horse because I want to be able to continue to do everything I can for Bog, and a second horse would make that very difficult financially.

If someone told me that another $50,000 would fix him, I'd go sell my truck and trailer tomorrow (which I need to do really anyway), move into a tent for a bit and do it. But it won't.

I also can't deny that in those five minutes of thinking this was the end, there was a tiny part of me that felt relief, closure. I know that's horrible but it would be clear cut- I would never or will not have him go through another "proper" episode like the initial onset.

I was actually going to say earlier, not to feel guilty if you have those ‘it would be easier if I had had him PTS’. I think that is 100% normal and logical thought. I have certainly had those thoughts with BBP. I’d be able to afford another horse, to ride, I wouldn’t always be wondering if I was doing the right thing every time he shows a pained eye or a lame step. I know 100% that others on here would have chosen a different path and they wouldn’t have been wrong either. But on balance he is a joyful, bright, happy person who still can gallop and play (and who is enjoying wrestling with the not so little CCP far too much at the moment )

 

[misst]

M I am so sorry that must have been horrendous. I do totally get the whole relief thing as well. It isn't that they aren't ok that is the problem, it's that they seem ok then they seem amazing and then boom! They aren't ok again. I remember with our last boy this happening over 18 months. He looked so good when he was out of work. No one would believe he wasn't rideable. Unfortunately not everything can be fixed.

As for knowing when the time is right, you will. We made the call when he went lame out of the blue again. He was looking great in the field one morning and lame again in the afternoon. We knew it wasn't lami but it "could" have been a abscess. More likely it was his collateral ligament again. We had said previously next time will be the last time. We didn't investigate at all we just called the vet. He was 10 and beautiful and talented. It was so desperately sad but the closure was good. I think we were at the end of our limit of emotional input. Have a hug and give Bog one from me too - I love that video of him wandering around his territory, he looks as if he is supervising and inspecting things (in case the pig has been interfering no doubt). x

 

[Bernster]

This latest made me he’s such a gorgeous boy. I’m sorry. It does sound like he twinged something which then righted itself. I agree be careful on the neck stretches going forward. Nothing else but hugs for a crappy situation xxx

 

[BBP]

Is it terrible that I had to google what contraindicate meant- haha!

Thank you, yes I definitely won't be doing that long lateral stretch again, ever. Which ones do you do?

The only thing we are doing at the moment until results are fully reported are encouraging him to open a little at the poll and take his frame out and down a little. Nothing else for his neck at the moment.

 

[Michen]

The only thing we are doing at the moment until results are fully reported are encouraging him to open a little at the poll and take his frame out and down a little. Nothing else for his neck at the moment.

Thank you. Vet did say last night that the way he does everything to extremes may not be helpful aka when he stretches, he really goes for it.

 

[Michen]

Ok spoke to vet. They don’t want to do steroids at the moment given he bounced back like he did, he said it’s actually not uncommon for horses with neck arthritis that have never been neuro to have moments like that when something is tweaked. Given he had steroids only four months ago he thinks compromising the immune system and going again right now is not a good plan unless something changes. Two weeks of anti inflammatories (equioxx) and we will see how he goes.

No more stretches for now.

I’ll see him again later but apparently he’s been totally fine and happy all day.

 

[Dave's Mam]

Hugs.

 

[Michen]

Bog looks great. Very happy and normal. We are also going to try him on some nerve pain relief.

Look at the little fluffy porker compared to his mid season hunting bod a few years back!!! It’s actually rather nice to see him a bit too “well”.

 

[Trouper]

Well, we all need a little more padding as we age.

Pity they can't do rhizolysis for horses (or I don't think they can?). Burning the nerve off in my neck where the arthritis was impinging every time I turned my head has been a godsend these last years. It was making riding safely in traffic somewhat tricky when I could not look behind. Since it was done, I have never looked back - well I have,obviously ...........................

 

[Floofball]

Gosh, another ride on the Boggle roller coaster!
Wasn’t expecting the latest episode - no wonder you are fried, horses absolutely put us through the mill - but Bog looks happy and is finding ways to entertain himself. I had to stop carrot stretches with floof - on day 3 he just went through the routine himself rather too enthusiastically (anything for a carrot) and was sore the day after! He’s another that is super flexible - he hurt himself trying to bite/scratch his own sheath when he was having trouble with his waterworks
I know that you will do right by him M, I also know you are desperate for his ataxia journey to be a success story, but hope you take yourself into consideration too - very hard to do when the horse in question is the biggest character and has such a fan club. I’ve got everything crossed for you both and hope he stays stable enough for you to just enjoy - no more frights please Boggle!!

 

[ycbm]

Well, we all need a little more padding as we age.

Pity they can't do rhizolysis for horses (or I don't think they can?). Burning the nerve off in my neck where the arthritis was impinging every time I turned my head has been a godsend these last years. It was making riding safely in traffic somewhat tricky when I could not look behind. Since it was done, I have never looked back - well I have,obviously ...........................

Do you get any loss of feeling anywhere from that? It sounds amazing.
.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Is it terrible that I had to google what contraindicate meant- haha!

Thank you, yes I definitely won't be doing that long lateral stretch again, ever. Which ones do you do?

I find the stretches to the fetlock quite effective you can see the back lift and they are not as harsh as the stretch to the hip.

Another good one is the thoracic sling stretch its on you tube you do it with both front legs, I also do front leg pulls and twirls you can do back legs as well but mine have hock arthritis so I don't do them as much and am careful.

Tail pulls are quite good most horses lean into them when you just do the straight pull back, the sideway ones I do are very subtle but still work the top of the back leg.

 

[Trouper]

Absolutely none. It was transformative. I was referred privately by my spinal surgeon (who does not "do" necks) to one of his colleagues and it was a straight in and out procedure so I feel very fortunate that I was able to afford it. I must be honest that the image guiding needle search for just the right spot had me gripping the table a bit but it was worth every second of that.

Do you get any loss of feeling anywhere from that? It sounds amazing.
.

 

[Red-1]

Only just caught up on this as I've been on my own roller coaster.

I think, if it were me, the latest episode would convince me that formal work and riding was out, pending any real changes. But, that I would continue allowing Bog to be Bog and living his best life. I don't think I would do rehab as such, just allow him to be. Yes to leading out, if that is fun. But, otherwise, I would take the pressure off myself.

My wobblers horse went berserk one day. It was his last ridden day but I wish I'd quit riding before as there were signs he was struggling that I didn't respond to as quickly as I could have.

 

[Michen]

Gosh, another ride on the Boggle roller coaster!
Wasn’t expecting the latest episode - no wonder you are fried, horses absolutely put us through the mill - but Bog looks happy and is finding ways to entertain himself. I had to stop carrot stretches with floof - on day 3 he just went through the routine himself rather too enthusiastically (anything for a carrot) and was sore the day after! He’s another that is super flexible - he hurt himself trying to bite/scratch his own sheath when he was having trouble with his waterworks
I know that you will do right by him M, I also know you are desperate for his ataxia journey to be a success story, but hope you take yourself into consideration too - very hard to do when the horse in question is the biggest character and has such a fan club. I’ve got everything crossed for you both and hope he stays stable enough for you to just enjoy - no more frights please Boggle!!

Thank you xx

 

[Michen]

Only just caught up on this as I've been on my own roller coaster.

I think, if it were me, the latest episode would convince me that formal work and riding was out, pending any real changes. But, that I would continue allowing Bog to be Bog and living his best life. I don't think I would do rehab as such, just allow him to be. Yes to leading out, if that is fun. But, otherwise, I would take the pressure off myself.

My wobblers horse went berserk one day. It was his last ridden day but I wish I'd quit riding before as there were signs he was struggling that I didn't respond to as quickly as I could have.

Please please please can the universe just let him have a long and happy retirement

Understandably, and I’ve done it myself, horses are put down every day because they can’t stand up to ridden work and I wanted to go through life with Bog ridden or not yet of course he’s dealt this hand.

 

[Parrotperson]

Well, we all need a little more padding as we age.

Pity they can't do rhizolysis for horses (or I don't think they can?). Burning the nerve off in my neck where the arthritis was impinging every time I turned my head has been a godsend these last years. It was making riding safely in traffic somewhat tricky when I could not look behind. Since it was done, I have never looked back - well I have,obviously ...........................

Golly! I’ve never heard of this.

I have facet arthritis in my neck plus one of my vertebrae has moved under another one so my neck is permanently painful. I can’t look behind over my right shoulder but luckily can enough over my left.

How long does it kill the pain for?

 

[Michen]

Absolutely none. It was transformative. I was referred privately by my spinal surgeon (who does not "do" necks) to one of his colleagues and it was a straight in and out procedure so I feel very fortunate that I was able to afford it. I must be honest that the image guiding needle search for just the right spot had me gripping the table a bit but it was worth every second of that.

It’s really interesting actually to hear your human take on it. So before, whenever you turned your neck in a certain direction it hurt? That’s what the vet think happened the other day. Not a neuro response as such, but pain.

I’m hoping the nerve pain killers help him but I’m not sure how I’ll tell because he doesn’t show any other signs of being in pain at all!

 

[Parrotperson]

It’s really interesting actually to hear your human take on it. So before, whenever you turned your neck in a certain direction it hurt? That’s what the vet think happened the other day. Not a neuro response as such, but pain.

I’m hoping the nerve pain killers help him but I’m not sure how I’ll tell because he doesn’t show any other signs of being in pain at all!

I have this too which is why I’m interested in the treatment mentioned.

Just sitting still is painful. Sleeping is hard too even with a specialised pillow that cost a fortune.

As to dearest Bog (I must’ve missed why he’s called that?!) don’t give yourself targets. Let him pottle along and go things in his own time. It’s not that long since it all kicked off and recovery will be at his own pace.

It seems to me that he’s living his best life (pig and all!). X

 

[Michen]

I have this too which is why I’m interested in the treatment mentioned.

Just sitting still is painful. Sleeping is hard too even with a specialised pillow that cost a fortune.

As to dearest Bog (I must’ve missed why he’s called that?!) don’t give yourself targets. Let him pottle along and go things in his own time. It’s not that long since it all kicked off and recovery will be at his own pace.

It seems to me that he’s living his best life (pig and all!). X

Bog is called Bog because when I picked him up from chievely service station off the m4, at 9pm at night in the dark and pouring rain, his eyes were so “boggly” and popping out of his head. I just looked at him and he was Boggle. Then he was Bog because his mane in the summer is always so wild and like a toilet brush.

Everyone in America calls him “Boggs”. I have no idea why, but they seem to love to put a double g and an s at the end so I let em have it

His actual name that he came with is Jack

Ps- thank you.
Pps- thank you HHO. You guys are the best.

 

[Michen]

Just had the weirdest experience with Bog. Per the vet request I took him into the indoor on a lunge line to film him walking. I put a pair of brushing boots on him out of curiosity. Something I’ve been meaning to do for ages tbh, I ordered some little chain things but Amazon messed it up and then I didn’t reorder. Bear in mind he’s on his final day of banamine before moving onto equioxx, albeit it’s a little over 24 hours since last dose.

Usually I see evidence of that front limb issue, the odd buckle or non locking of the leg.

Today- nothing. Not on any part of the surface, deep shallow or otherwise. Absolutely no evidence of it. And I kept him going a fair while to check it wasn’t fluke.

When he stopped, he suddenly let out these huge yawns and releases and then licked me from head to toe. Like I was a feedbowl, I had to stop him after five mins as I was soaked! He wouldn’t stop, it was like a mare licking her foal.

He’s never done anything like that with the licking, it was totally bizarre. I have no idea if the brushing boots made a huge diff to his feeling or it’s the remnants of pain relief or what.. but something is very very different and Bog felt it too.

Don’t worry I’m not suddenly getting hopeful it’s just very interesting. Learning a lot here

Btw no amount of firmness will stop him rolling in the indoor even on a lunge line lol, he literally can’t help himself haha.

Pics of course of the usual Boggle madness. I’m so glad he stopped bucking like that under his saddle by the end of his sixth year

 

[Caol Ila]

I love his turnout paddock.

That is weird, but I think (I'm not a doctor...well, not that kind, nor do I play one on TV) with human neuro stuff, putting a thing on a limb can improve prioperception.

A lot of the TTouch stuff and TTeam stuff is about making them more aware of where their bodies are. I did a lot of that a zillion years ago with my anxious QH who didn't have much bodily awareness, and still do bits and pieces of TTouch with my horses now, 'cause I know it and was good at it, and it helps relax them 'cause it's like easy massage. But it doesn't feel as relevent as they have excellent awareness of their feet and bodies (Fin's anxiety issues are frustratingly more intractible). It's probably a rabbit hole worth exploring with Boggle.

 

[Michen]

I know it definitely can so I’m kicking myself for not sorting it out sooner. I thought it needed to be around his fetlock not just boots.

It was his reaction to obviously feeling better in some way that really got me.

 

[SEL]

I know it definitely can so I’m kicking myself for not sorting it out sooner. I thought it needed to be around his fetlock not just boots.

It was his reaction to obviously feeling better in some way that really got me.

Even different types of bell boots / over reach boots can get different reactions.

If you can find a TTouch practitioner who does the wraps then they can have quite impressive results.

 

[Sandstone1]

I may be completely wrong here. Its just a thought. Is it possible that the episode with his neck the other day may have " Unlocked" something? Maybe freed up something that was catching.... Have no idea really but maybe that is why he has improved?
I hope the improvement continues what ever is causing it.

 

[Titchy Pony]

Lovely pictures and very interesting reaction from Bog. I'd be randomly trying the same thing with and without boots on over several days to see if there was a difference all the time.

 

[ycbm]

With brushing boots he should be getting proprioception signals from deep inside his legs every time he bends his knees and his tendons move against the boot. I have proprioception issues because I lack reflexes in my tendons from a syndrome I have. When doing balance exercises it's amazing what a difference placing one finger tip very lightly onto a surface makes. I'm not holding myself up with it in any way, it's just that giving my brain that additional point of spacial awareness has a major effect.

It seems quite likely that's what you saw.
.

 

[Trouper]

Golly! I’ve never heard of this.

I have facet arthritis in my neck plus one of my vertebrae has moved under another one so my neck is permanently painful. I can’t look behind over my right shoulder but luckily can enough over my left.

How long does it kill the pain for?

It’s really interesting actually to hear your human take on it. So before, whenever you turned your neck in a certain direction it hurt? That’s what the vet think happened the other day. Not a neuro response as such, but pain.

I’m hoping the nerve pain killers help him but I’m not sure how I’ll tell because he doesn’t show any other signs of being in pain at all!

@Parrotperson I had the procedure done about 8 years ago and the relief was almost instantaneous. What I had was a sharp pain on trying to turn my head to the right but when I looked straight ahead things were OK so I guess that was what decided them it was nerve impingement. I have been told recently that the arthritis in my neck is worse than on the last scan but all I can feel is the dull ache that you get with arthritis in hands etc and it does not really trouble me much (compared with my lumbar spine) and I can still turn my head freely.

@Michen You're probably more of an expert than me on neuro issues by now but I guess any pain which is sharp and short-lived is probably a nerve being pinged somewhere. I don't know whether you have to be awake for my procedure or whether it is just something that does not necessitate a general anaesthetic but I guess even a sedated horse would be tricky to do this on. I knew I had to keep very still in a certain position and, as I said, I was gripping the table a bit by the end. Not sure our equine friends would hold still for that !!!!

 

[Trouper]

Just had the weirdest experience with Bog. Per the vet request I took him into the indoor on a lunge line to film him walking. I put a pair of brushing boots on him out of curiosity. Something I’ve been meaning to do for ages tbh, I ordered some little chain things but Amazon messed it up and then I didn’t reorder. Bear in mind he’s on his final day of banamine before moving onto equioxx, albeit it’s a little over 24 hours since last dose.

Usually I see evidence of that front limb issue, the odd buckle or non locking of the leg.

Today- nothing. Not on any part of the surface, deep shallow or otherwise. Absolutely no evidence of it. And I kept him going a fair while to check it wasn’t fluke.

When he stopped, he suddenly let out these huge yawns and releases and then licked me from head to toe. Like I was a feedbowl, I had to stop him after five mins as I was soaked! He wouldn’t stop, it was like a mare licking her foal.

He’s never done anything like that with the licking, it was totally bizarre. I have no idea if the brushing boots made a huge diff to his feeling or it’s the remnants of pain relief or what.. but something is very very different and Bog felt it too.

Don’t worry I’m not suddenly getting hopeful it’s just very interesting. Learning a lot here

Btw no amount of firmness will stop him rolling in the indoor even on a lunge line lol, he literally can’t help himself haha.

Pics of course of the usual Boggle madness. I’m so glad he stopped bucking like that under his saddle by the end of his sixth year
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Gosh - I think we are all on quite a journey in understanding what is going on with Bog. Will be fascinating to see what a difference the boots make long term. At the risk of derailing this thread with my own ailments () I know that my wonky knees feel better with a support on and I can't make up my mind whether it is a) support - though that seems quite light, b) the warmth easing the pain or c) as @ycbm says just the awareness of things. Bodies are amazing and frustrating things!!