Boggle- USA bound!

[Michen]

I think without knowing the cause it is a difficult decision to make. Is it something daily pain relief like bute could manage.

If this is something new that has only just started in the last few weeks could this be something completely different such as a pulled muscle or strain from rolling or too big a carrot stretch that might heal on it's own.

If that was me and Homey I would not be putting to sleep if it is a pain or instability that only last 30 seconds and only occurs if he turns his neck to itch and most of the time he was fine. He does need to be comfortable grazing and be able to lie down and get up. If you are going to try steroids or injecting anything you need to be sure you are having him injected in the correct place and that it is his neck.

I don’t see how else I’m supposed to find out, other than a CT or mylegram which I’m just not going to do. I think it’s 100% his neck and the steroids are wearing off.

He’s totally fine grazing, rolling etc. I’m just terrified I’ll call it too late and he will go in a catastrophic way.

 

[SO1]

Oh I got a frozen shoulder, even injections not helped. I’ve bought a shoulder brace and I sit at night with a heated shoulder pad on. I get by on ibuprofen now and heat rubs.

I had a frozen shoulder once it was awful incredibly painful difficult to sleep. My GP sent me to physio I think it was 3 times a week for 6 weeks and I had to exercise with a giant elastic band thing and eventually it went away.

 

[Michen]

And my mum is here and my best mate and godson are coming out in a week, I have no idea how I’m going to be “normal”

 

[nutjob]

It sounds like you are (understandably) distressed but he isn't, so it would be a no for me to PTS right now. I really doubt he's in pain, nerve pain is easy to spot and you would be in no doubt about it. The response is most likely from lack of control, pressure on motor nerves, not from pain.

Has your vet recommended PRP? It's my understanding its for soft tissue injuries (I haven't had a horse which had it but I had it myself, def injected into ligaments). It causes an inflammatory reaction not an anti-inflammatory. In my case it was to get the ligament to tighten up so it was repeated stabbed (damaged a bit) and injected at several points. Once repaired I guess the scar tissue caused it to tighten up a bit. I don't see how it would affect an overgrowth of bone which is pressing on the spinal cord. However, in my case it helped a lot and was relatively, for UK private medical treatment not too expensive.

My wobbler had a short course of high strength oral steroids, then tapered off. It did help a bit but he was still poor on neuro tests and he's off them now. As I said mine was not considered a good risk for joint injections but he presents differently to yours.

You can just do nothing and see how he goes, give him a bit more time and likely he will go one way or the other. If he's getting worse, another steroid injection is not usually too expensive and I would give this a try before pts. FWIW, my vet agrees with me that we should try the neck injection on mine if the only other option is pts, he's not at that point yet.

The ongoing worry and stress is terrible, I totally empathise and it's hard to make the right decisions.

 

[Michen]

Thank you nutjob. Apparently PRP and IRAP are options if you don’t want to go to steroids. I too thought PRP was only for soft tissue but apparently not.

This is so, so hard. I know it’s a pain response for those seconds, I see it in his face. I wish it wasn’t.

The nerve pain meds have been started but take a minute to kick in so maybe I’ll see some improvement from that. He’s shedding and gets incredibly itchy so this is not ideal for him wanting to reach around and scratch all the time.

 

[SO1]

I expect there is a reason they can't try arthramid instead of steroids but that seems to be successful in lots of leg arthritis.

 

[Michen]

I expect there is a reason they can't try arthramid instead of steroids but that seems to be successful in lots of leg arthritis.

I’ll definitely ask, I think because once you’ve put it in you can’t put anything else in and generally steroids are considered pest option for the neck.

 

[Michen]

I wonder whether I should fully clip him. It’ll be a pain with rugging but I’m thinking about how this could go with his itchiness and shedding. Urgh.

 

[teapot]

If clipping makes him more comfy definitely do it, and am sure you’ll find a workable solution for rugging.

Sorry to hear it’s happened again, has it been to the same side/direction?

 

[Michen]

If clipping makes him more comfy definitely do it, and am sure you’ll find a workable solution for rugging.

Sorry to hear it’s happened again, has it been to the same side/direction?

Actually today it was the other way..

Thanks, I’ll think about the clipping.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Clipping is an option i would speak to the vet team about.

Also would be interested to hear their thoughts on arthrimed in the neck.

The neuro pain killers will take a while to fullt kick in but if its a sudden odd compression that might take him over the "baseline" of the neuro meds.

You dont have to be normal with your familiy there, they know what you have been through, speak to them, lean on them. Its ok.

 

[Michen]

Clipping is an option i would speak to the vet team about.

Also would be interested to hear their thoughts on arthrimed in the neck.

The neuro pain killers will take a while to fullt kick in but if its a sudden odd compression that might take him over the "baseline" of the neuro meds.

You dont have to be normal with your familiy there, they know what you have been through, speak to them, lean on them. Its ok.

Thank you. I’m not sure the vets would have an opinion on clipping or not, I guess it’s me that knows him and what an itchy horse he is etc.

It’s just a pain because the temperatures can vary so wildly here and also it’s nice he’s able to frequently go out naked with the sun on his back, and having his own coat makes rugging less stressful if you get it a bit wrong, if that makes sense.

 

[scats]

If these are just fleeting moments when he stretches round, and he is back to normal after a few moments, I absolutely wouldn’t consider him needing to be PTS at the moment. Yes he may be feeling some discomfort in those few seconds, but at the moment that’s all it is, a few seconds and then he is fine.
All horses experience discomfort at times, just like any living animal. Whether tight muscles, bruising, soreness from a knock or fall. Provided he is back to normal and loving life inbetween these very few and far between moments, I would simply monitor him.

If these episodes become more frequent, last longer and start being caused by lesser movements then yes, you might have a problem, but right now I think you need to accept this is where you are and that realistically you won’t know what you’ve got until it’s been at least 12 months since the original issue.
Just consider this all part of the recovery, keep a log of any concerns so you can see how frequently/infrequently these things are happening and exactly what movement he did that caused them. Also record how quickly he returned to normal and his behaviour afterwards.

 

[meesha]

I agree with scats, it sounds like he has a good quality of life, he looks great and is enjoying himself. Noone would judge you for PTS if this is the right thing for you but Boggle isn't getting himself too distressed by these fleeting moments from what you say. Speak to the vet for guidance/reassurance and leave instructions with the vet and barn that if a vet thinks at any point PTS its in Boggles best interest they don't need to contact you but should go ahead straight away with it .

I had a horse who had torn meniscus then compaction colic which meant I was watching the camera obsessively making sure he wasn't led down too long, it badly affected my mental health, when a few months after the colic I got to the yard and he could barely walk so no decision was needed, just a call to the vet and he was peacefully PTS... The overwhelming emotion was relief (as well as sadness.). These horses are a rollercoaster of emotions and you have to do what is right for both you and Boggle.

 

[Michen]

Thank you both. I guess I am not seeing this as part of his recovery, I'm seeing it part of a worsening condition.

PTS is absolutely NOT the right thing for me, I desperately want him to have a long and happy retirement and I'm so frightened he's not going to have it.

I'm clipping him as soon as I can, I need him to not be feeling itchy and like he needs to cran that neck around with such vigor. I'm wondering how much he's doing it that I don't see, basically giving himself multiple lateral stretches goodness knows how many times a day.

 

[rabatsa]

Is he being super itchy or just normal everyday itchy? One clipping will solve, the other he will still want to scratch himself.

 

[Michen]

Is he being super itchy or just normal everyday itchy? One clipping will solve, the other he will still want to scratch himself.

He’s always an itchy horse but he’s now super itchy because he’s shedding, he was like this last year when I only did an Irish clip and he was shedding in the other areas. He gets pretty hysterical over it.

Hes always been fully clipped all year and that was one of the reasons why. Before moving to Co.

 

[ycbm]

I’m just terrified I’ll call it too late and he will go in a catastrophic way.

For this reason I would be making a different decision from you, but that doesn't make yours wrong. I couldn't face the reasonable prospect of his last hours being in screaming pain while waiting for the vet to arrive. That may possibly be more a weakness in me than concern for the horse, it's a very difficult bind you are in, and I'm so sorry that's where you are. I hope for both your sakes he stages a third miraculous recovery.
.

 

[Trouper]

Everything that @scats said plus I really think it is important to realise just how vulnerable you still are at the moment and, for me, that is not the time to be making irreversible decisions. I think the pendulum of your emotions needs to stop swinging quite so wildly so you are able to take a really considered view of Bog's condition, monitor his progress over a longer period of time and then be able to make the right decision. I'm sorry to sound so bossy but old age lends perspective to life's dramas - and you have certainly have had your fill this year!! Would the you of a year ago consider that you were in a good place now to make so big a call on Bog??

Nerve pain is horrible but if it is only coming in snatches and he is able to get up and hoon around then he still seems a happy chappy to me. Are you keeping a log of all the incidents you see? - I find it helps me to review situations when I know that I will forget the dates and times of just how the pattern of events is emerging - it might help discussions with your vet about ongoing treatment?

I agree that if it is the only way to stop Bog getting hysterical about itching then I would clip and rug now as you don't want him to harm himself through just such a stupid thing as that. Just a thought, would a calmer take the edge off his anxiety about it all?

Enjoy your family visit - sometimes other people around do help!!

 

[I'm Dun]

I wouldnt clip. Id leave him to keep moving his neck. Its a new thing, its happening both ways and its fleeting. Its something I live with. I'm a wreck, and have just had an awful time with my hip. The ligament on the inside of the joint started by clunking and moved on to getting stuck which was horrific pain wise. But it has eased off over a period of about a month from the initial clunking to nothing at all. I had physio with someone who did some osteo type manoeuvers on me which initally made it hurt more, then very quickly improved.

The clunking in that joint is something that happens intermittently. If I'm struggling its the place it shows up first. The clunking causes no pain at all, its just weird!. The being stuck really does! I've only had the being stuck once in 10yrs and I'd been pushing so, so, so hard so overdid it. Resting helped with general soreness but made the getting stuck increase in pain and amount of times it happened.

No painkiller touched it and I'm on max dose of opiates and a nerve pain drug that can only be gotten from the pain clinic. The nerve pain drug is very good for normal background nerve pain. It does absolutely nothing for the getting stuck pain. They arent really designed for that sudden intense pain that quickly goes.

Clearly I am not a horse, but I thought you might find it useful to hear a similar story from a person who can put it into words. I hope that makes sense and isnt too jumbled. I find it hard to rationally write down anything about the pain as I get by mainly by compartmentalising it and pretending it isnt happening!

And further to my other post, I wouldnt have a chiro out either, but a vet who is trained as an osteo and can review the xrays, then I'd move heaven and earth to get one out. If nothing is showing on xrays, it started after a fall and its a ligament or muscle catching and sticking, then gentle osteo manipulation has to help. A vet trained one isnt going to start wrenching him about and causing damage like some of the chiros who do horrible manipulations.

 

[meleeka]

I look at it like this. I think I have an excellent quality of life. I do sometimes get a twinge here and there though, it’s just life. Should I be pts because of it? I do hope not

If it gets worse/more frequent and it’s affecting his movement so that he doesn’t want to move so much, then absolutely you can panic about it, but I don’t think you are anywhere near there yet.

 

[Michen]

For this reason I would be making a different decision from you, but that doesn't make yours wrong. I couldn't face the reasonable prospect of his last hours being in screaming pain while waiting for the vet to arrive. That may possibly be more a weakness in me than concern for the horse, it's a very difficult bind you are in, and I'm so sorry that's where you are. I hope for both your sakes he stages a third miraculous recovery.
.

This is America, at a ranch, there’s guns everywhere. He won’t be left in pain waiting for a vet if it was truly catastrophic.

Of course it’s different if something happens in the night or whatnot and he’s not found, but I suppose anything can happen to any horse in the night.

 

[Michen]

I look at it like this. I think I have an excellent quality of life. I do sometimes get a twinge here and there though, it’s just life. Should I be pts because of it? I do hope not

If it gets worse/more frequent and it’s affecting his movement so that he doesn’t want to move so much, then absolutely you can panic about it, but I don’t think you are anywhere near there yet.

This is what my mum said when I came home crying and saying I needed to PTS. I think she was kind of shocked. Of course I was trying to explain that given he can’t talk, I don’t know how much pain he’s truly in on a day to day.

I don’t think he is, I watch him so carefully, but I could be wrong. At the moment I’m just really wondering if he’s doing those carrot stretches all the time itching like he does and he’s just constantly tweaking/over using that neck.

I am going to clip- For my own sanity as much as his. Plus it’ll make him super happy, being clipped is one of that horses favourite things , wiggly nose throughout

 

[Ambers Echo]

Just catching up and so sorry to hear how up and down things are. For what it's worth I don't think he sounds like his quality of life overall suggests PTS is the right thing for him yet. He is a horse who appears very much to want to live! And to fight for that. I think that outside of a more prolonged episode, what I'd be looking for is his general demeanour. If that Bog-spark ever dulled, that woud be the time. So I don't think you need to worry yet about that aspect of it. You know that horse inside out. So if he were suffering stocially you will look at him and would just know. And would then do the right thing by him. Trust your instincts. x

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I'm sorry you're on such a rollercoaster Michen! You just can't catch a break of late!

If it were me and I had the funds available (as I know it's not cheap), I would be CT'ing or MRI'ing - I think the what if's would all but stop if you could diagnose the problem, know if it's degenerative, if the whole joint is affected or there's impingement, what course of treatment is best eg: steroids vs arthramid. I think you're a lot like me and like to be armed with all the info you can get, so it might help your mental health slightly, even if the outcome/management for Boggle doesn't change.

 

[Michen]

I'm sorry you're on such a rollercoaster Michen! You just can't catch a break of late!

If it were me and I had the funds available (as I know it's not cheap), I would be CT'ing or MRI'ing - I think the what if's would all but stop if you could diagnose the problem, know if it's degenerative, if the whole joint is affected or there's impingement, what course of treatment is best eg: steroids vs arthramid. I think you're a lot like me and like to be armed with all the info you can get, so it might help your mental health slightly, even if the outcome/management for Boggle doesn't change.

I’ve thought about it, I really have, but it won’t change the treatment- the vets were very clear about that. That horse has been through so much, he’s had two long hospital stays within months of each other. He’s been poked and prodded and syringed and been so sick.

Honestly, the idea of taking him back to one and putting him through a GA, the recovery, even the travelling to get there (the CT that he’d need to go to is 2.5 hours away, mylegram is local). I would 100% think it was worth doing for him if it would make a difference, to him. Or if it could show something that could save him.

I really just feel strongly that it’s not in his best interests, only mine. I totally agree, it would be so so much better for me to just know.

 

[Michen]

Just catching up and so sorry to hear how up and down things are. For what it's worth I don't think he sounds like his quality of life overall suggests PTS is the right thing for him yet. He is a horse who appears very much to want to live! And to fight for that. I think that outside of a more prolonged episode, what I'd be looking for is his general demeanour. If that Bog-spark ever dulled, that woud be the time. So I don't think you need to worry yet about that aspect of it. You know that horse inside out. So if he were suffering stocially you will look at him and would just know. And would then do the right thing by him. Trust your instincts. x

Thank you AE. Xx

 

[druid]

I would leave him be, let things settle and see how it progresses if it all. I wouldn't do diagnostics if they change nothing about your treatment or plan going forward.

 

[Michen]

I would leave him be, let things settle and see how it progresses if it all. I wouldn't do diagnostics if they change nothing about your treatment or plan going forward.

Thanks Druid, that’s what I’m planning to do. It’ll be good to see if the gabapentin makes any difference.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I’ve thought about it, I really have, but it won’t change the treatment- the vets were very clear about that. That horse has been through so much, he’s had two long hospital stays within months of each other. He’s been poked and prodded and syringed and been so sick.

Honestly, the idea of taking him back to one and putting him through a GA, the recovery, even the travelling to get there (the CT that he’d need to go to is 2.5 hours away, mylegram is local). I would 100% think it was worth doing for him if it would make a difference, to him. Or if it could show something that could save him.

I really just feel strongly that it’s not in his best interests, only mine. I totally agree, it would be so so much better for me to just know.

Completely understandable, all you can do is what you feel is right - and you, us, and just about everyone else has their fingers crossed for Boggle; I just hope it's smooth sailing as much as possible from here on out.