Boggle- USA bound!

[Tarragon]

I think that the herd dynamics is only just getting sorted, and if the other two are finding Boggle un-predictable, they can adapt to keeping out of his way and they have each other.
I am sorry that I cannot help you on the big question though, except to say that horses only ever think of the now and have no concept of future, so whether you decide to PTS sooner rather than later, it makes no difference to Boggle.

 

[Upthecreek]

I would allow him to fully settle at the new yard, continue the ulcer treatment and steroids and see what he’s like in a month. You know he is usually dominant with companions, so this is not totally new behaviour that would be an immediate red flag that it’s due to pain. He’s moved again and you’ve added another horse within a short space of time, so if he is otherwise acting normally and is bright in himself I would want to wait and see. You sound like someone who is usually very quick to make decisions and act on them, so I imagine this is really hard for you, but I personally would not be making the decision to pts now based on what you’ve said so far. One of my horses can be a total tw*t with other horses for no reason and will also graze side by side with them, mutually groom etc. It’s just how he is. My other horse has never put his ears back or raised a hoof to another horse, so if he started being aggressive I’d be concerned.

 

[SEL]

My big mare can be horrible to other horses. She likes her little herd (now!) but I couldn't do group turnout at an old yard. She had "her" Ardennes and I had to make a paddock for the two of them.

I'd let all 3 settle as a herd and see how he does.

 

[Michen]

Thank you. I go away friday for four days so I can have the girl looking after them report back. I watch them on the camera and don't see if when they are just grazing, it seems to be when there is activity aka me appearing, bring in time, whatever.

It’s hard to look at this right now and imagine there’s a problem but the aggression can and does come out of no where.

And yes UTC, I am usually very quick to make decisions and act on them. But most things can be undone and obviously this can’t so it’s incredibly hard.

On a happier note Dusty is finally getting shiny.

 

[splashgirl45]

I think you are trying too hard to do the right thing and it’s not letting you think rationally. If Bog is happily grazing with the odd run and buck, he can’t be feeling too bad. If he was standing in the corner subdued that would be a definite red flag. It does sound like jealousy to me, as it seems to happen when you appear. Him and Dusty seemed to be ok then another horse arrives so it’s going to take time for them to settle to the new dynamic . Will be interesting to see how he behaves when you are not there for four days. I would also keep on with the ulcer treatment especially as he’s had steroids … Hope you can soon relax a bit and enjoy your lovely yard and horses

 

[Michen]

Thank you. I think I’m just hyper aware. I look at what a particular vet is doing with her horse and I don’t want to be that person that’s blinded by how much they love the animal and not actually doing what’s best for them. I think it can be so hard when you are “in it” to see the wood from the trees.

 

[BMA2]

Thank you. I go away friday for four days so I can have the girl looking after them report back. I watch them on the camera and don't see if when they are just grazing, it seems to be when there is activity aka me appearing, bring in time, whatever.

It’s hard to look at this right now and imagine there’s a problem but the aggression can and does come out of no where.

And yes UTC, I am usually very quick to make decisions and act on them. But most things can be undone and obviously this can’t so it’s incredibly hard.

On a happier note Dusty is finally getting shiny.

View attachment 138874

You say it comes out of no where...but isn't it always when *you* are around

You sure he's not viewing you as HIS

 

[splashgirl45]

There is no way you are anything like that vet and you will never let Bog suffer but you must be absolutely sure that he doesn’t have a good QOL before making any final decision and at the moment I would say his QOL is pretty good

 

[BMA2]

So I've never used a sole person vet practice...

What happens when they are out competing...do you get diverted to another practice?

 

[SEL]

You say it comes out of no where...but isn't it always when *you* are around

You sure he's not viewing you as HIS

I thought that too - it's resource guarding.

@Michen no way are you and Bog even remotely comparable to the vet and her horse. Not One Bit.

 

[AmyMay]

My big mare can be horrible to other horses. She likes her little herd (now!) but I couldn't do group turnout at an old yard. She had "her" Ardennes and I had to make a paddock for the two of them.

I'd let all 3 settle as a herd and see how he does.

I had a mate that could be vile to other horses. Once she was settled the aggressive behaviour went. But you could never fully trust her.

 

[Sandstone1]

Horses will be horses and they will still be sorting out whos boss.

 

[AmyMay]

I would allow him to fully settle at the new yard, continue the ulcer treatment and steroids and see what he’s like in a month. You know he is usually dominant with companions, so this is not totally new behaviour that would be an immediate red flag that it’s due to pain. He’s moved again and you’ve added another horse within a short space of time, so if he is otherwise acting normally and is bright in himself I would want to wait and see. You sound like someone who is usually very quick to make decisions and act on them, so I imagine this is really hard for you, but I personally would not be making the decision to pts now based on what you’ve said so far. One of my horses can be a total tw*t with other horses for no reason and will also graze side by side with them, mutually groom etc. It’s just how he is. My other horse has never put his ears back or raised a hoof to another horse, so if he started being aggressive I’d be concerned.

I agree with everything you say.

 

[Michen]

Maybe. He just didn’t do it with Bear like that.

I think maybe in my gut I feel it’s a pain thing and that’s why it’s bothering me. I will need you guys to tell me if I ever, ever get to that point and I can’t see it. I can take any firm hard kick up the arse. You guys are very patient to have not got thoroughly fed up and bored of my constant back and forth and emotional rollercoaster posting on here. I don’t really talk to anyone about it in real life, not because there aren’t people I could, but it all changes so quick and it’s just kind of exhausting.

Of course only Bog would do this! Can’t leave anything alone. Luckily he hasn’t trashed my Starlink dish that’s on the ground yet.

 

[Snowfilly]

Thank you. I go away friday for four days so I can have the girl looking after them report back. I watch them on the camera and don't see if when they are just grazing, it seems to be when there is activity aka me appearing, bring in time, whatever.

It’s hard to look at this right now and imagine there’s a problem but the aggression can and does come out of no where.

And yes UTC, I am usually very quick to make decisions and act on them. But most things can be undone and obviously this can’t so it’s incredibly hard.

On a happier note Dusty is finally getting shiny.

View attachment 138874

It really does sound like he’s being a jealous toerag if you can see them on video and it’s not happening when you’re not around.

Pain related behaviour would be constant, maybe lessening with excitement / adrenaline when you’re there.

Behaviour which flares up when you’re physically present but not otherwise unless they’re expecting being brought in, I would put money on jealousy and sorting out the pecking order with him saying ‘my human, sod off!’ as loudly as he can to the others.

 

[teapot]

Thank you. I go away friday for four days so I can have the girl looking after them report back. I watch them on the camera and don't see if when they are just grazing, it seems to be when there is activity aka me appearing, bring in time, whatever.

It’s hard to look at this right now and imagine there’s a problem but the aggression can and does come out of no where.

And yes UTC, I am usually very quick to make decisions and act on them. But most things can be undone and obviously this can’t so it’s incredibly hard.

On a happier note Dusty is finally getting shiny.

View attachment 138874

The bolded bit - that's totally normal though, especially now you're getting into herd territory. I'd let them settle and find their feet, it's extremely early days gang wise, and horses will be horses. It could just be Bog double barrelling because he can, it's what they do, and has he ever been in a gang of three? Ie do you have a direct comparison? He'll most likely be reinforcing the pecking order.

Horses can change so much when herd dynamics change even just by one I wouldn't immediately think the worst/worry imho.


Yours someone who used to regularly watch new ones being introduced to established herds of 10+ - it was fascinating to watch even the bottom of the pecking order quiet as a lamb ones find their back feet!

 

[Michen]

The bolded bit - that's totally normal though, especially now you're getting into herd territory. I'd let them settle and find their feet, it's extremely early days gang wise, and horses will be horses. It could just be Bog double barrelling because he can, it's what they do, and has he ever been in a gang of three? Ie do you have a direct comparison? He'll most likely be reinforcing the pecking order.

Horses can change so much when herd dynamics change even just by one I wouldn't immediately think the worst/worry imho.


Yours someone who used to regularly watch new ones being introduced to established herds of 10+ - it was fascinating to watch even the bottom of the pecking order quiet as a lamb ones find their back feet!

The only time he was in a herd of three was when he was first with me and we had to swiftly remove him, he spent the entire time trying to bite the sheaths of the other geldings and ran one poor chap into the ground...

We then tried him with one pony where he did the same thing.

Then I got Bear maybe 3 years later, who other than gelding play he just never treated like that, I mean don't get me wrong he was absolutely the boss and would flatten his ears if Bear got a nose in front bringing in from the field, but he never double barrelled him or kicked him or even bit him really.

 

[Michen]

Here is a video I just took. You can see the annoyance in Bog as he wants to come to me and thinks Dusty may get there first. I’d consider that normal Bog behaviour.

It’s the double barreling that seems so extreme, and how he flattens his ears when a horse moves near him. That said, would Dusty graze this close if he was truly terrible all the time? I don’t know.

 

[teapot]

The only time he was in a herd of three was when he was first with me and we had to swiftly remove him, he spent the entire time trying to bite the sheaths of the other geldings and ran one poor chap into the ground...

We then tried him with one pony where he did the same thing.

Then I got Bear maybe 3 years later, who other than gelding play he just never treated like that, I mean don't get me wrong he was absolutely the boss and would flatten his ears if Bear got a nose in front bringing in from the field, but he never double barrelled him or kicked him or even bit him really.

And now he's grown up a bit, double barrelling could absolutely be a middle ground between the flat ears and running something ragged. He will be a slightly different horse in a group of three imho.

 

[AmyMay]

He’s just being a grumpy bugger.

 

[Michen]

Well if Bog could write his thanks to you all to stop me euthanizing him I have no doubt he would, poor thing lol.

 

[Apercrumbie]

I would allow him to fully settle at the new yard, continue the ulcer treatment and steroids and see what he’s like in a month. You know he is usually dominant with companions, so this is not totally new behaviour that would be an immediate red flag that it’s due to pain. He’s moved again and you’ve added another horse within a short space of time, so if he is otherwise acting normally and is bright in himself I would want to wait and see. You sound like someone who is usually very quick to make decisions and act on them, so I imagine this is really hard for you, but I personally would not be making the decision to pts now based on what you’ve said so far. One of my horses can be a total tw*t with other horses for no reason and will also graze side by side with them, mutually groom etc. It’s just how he is. My other horse has never put his ears back or raised a hoof to another horse, so if he started being aggressive I’d be concerned.

Also completely agree with this. He's just had several changes in quick succession - unless he shows super obvious signs of pain or discomfort I wouldn't do a thing for at least a month and in reality a bit longer.

Also to reassure you, I don't think anyone on here thinks you're like that vet. We'll let you know if we think you're getting close, but right now you're a long long long way off.

 

[palo1]

Thank you. I think I’m just hyper aware. I look at what a particular vet is doing with her horse and I don’t want to be that person that’s blinded by how much they love the animal and not actually doing what’s best for them. I think it can be so hard when you are “in it” to see the wood from the trees.

But you are aware of the need to see the wood from the trees! Possibly you are looking so hard at the wood, in fact, that you are losing the trees maybe. You question Bogs qol regularly and you are able to be rational and objective it seems. Boggle sounds like he is doing really well and if he were being submissive that might be far more worrying!

I have a dominant, jealous one who will bite and kick if anyone takes the attention at times. It's only because Alw has such a brilliant attitude (as in 'stuff you matey ' that she is able to live with him (and his submissive bestie!). I would give them all time to settle whilst you continue the meds, as well as give yourself some time. You have done such a great job setting things up for Boggle too - perhaps allow that to be what it is for a bit, for all of you. If something is really, genuinely wrong you will know.

 

[GrassChop]

Thank you. I go away friday for four days so I can have the girl looking after them report back. I watch them on the camera and don't see if when they are just grazing, it seems to be when there is activity aka me appearing, bring in time, whatever.

It’s hard to look at this right now and imagine there’s a problem but the aggression can and does come out of no where.

And yes UTC, I am usually very quick to make decisions and act on them. But most things can be undone and obviously this can’t so it’s incredibly hard.

On a happier note Dusty is finally getting shiny.

View attachment 138874

Dusty looks amazing

If you normally feed when you're there, then I think it can be normal for them to get aggy with each other around that time. Mine do when there is feed coming or they think they're going to get something!

 

[palo1]

Here is a video I just took. You can see the annoyance in Bog as he wants to come to me and thinks Dusty may get there first. I’d consider that normal Bog behaviour.

It’s the double barreling that seems so extreme, and how he flattens his ears when a horse moves near him. That said, would Dusty graze this close if he was truly terrible all the time? I don’t know.

View attachment 138876

I think under the new-herd, new-home circs what is on the vid here is perfectly reasonable, albeit clearly dominant behaviour! Double barrelling is not unreasonable either, if the others are challenging him. Our hill mares behave appallingly to each other at times if the is anything to be gained from it; even a tiny bit of dropped apple! Wicked creatures...

 

[GrassChop]

Here is a video I just took. You can see the annoyance in Bog as he wants to come to me and thinks Dusty may get there first. I’d consider that normal Bog behaviour.

It’s the double barreling that seems so extreme, and how he flattens his ears when a horse moves near him. That said, would Dusty graze this close if he was truly terrible all the time? I don’t know.

View attachment 138876

Have you ever had mares? This is like a daily thing for me. "Get out my way, I'm going to mum" or usually if the other horse isn't walking or standing in the direction that said mare wants them to be.

Also, Bog looks really good! I would never have thought there was something going on with him!

 

[Michen]

I think under the new-herd, new-home circs what is on the vid here is perfectly reasonable, albeit clearly dominant behaviour! Double barrelling is not unreasonable either, if the others are challenging him. Our hill mares behave appallingly to each other at times if the is anything to be gained from it; even a tiny bit of dropped apple! Wicked creatures...

They aren’t. They move out of his way instantly. Helo just really hurt my ear (bleeding, skin removed!) running into me as I led him into his run because Bog appeared and he wanted to get out of the way

And Dusty I just can’t ignore how he’s standing despite now being shod. Have text the rescue to see if they’d be open to having him checked for lameness. He looks good to me on a circle in trot on the field but I’m no vet and could be bilateral and not showing.

Sigh. Never easy is it? Obviously I bought this on myself taking on a compromised ex racer but I hoped I could get him good.

 

[Michen]

Ps I know that video is normal, it’s an example of what I consider ok. It’s the random rage that concerns me.

 

[GrassChop]

They aren’t. They move out of his way instantly. Helo just really hurt my ear (bleeding, skin removed!) running into me as I led him into his run because Bog appeared and he wanted to get out of the way

And Dusty I just can’t ignore how he’s standing despite now being shod. Have text the rescue to see if they’d be open to having him checked for lameness. He looks good to me on a circle in trot on the field but I’m no vet and could be bilateral and not showing.

Sigh. Never easy is it? Obviously I bought this on myself taking on a compromised ex racer but I hoped I could get him good.

Oh no I hope you're okay.

If it's any consolation, other horses have been known to run past my mare so she has to be out the way if leading near her so please try not to overthink that things aren't working or any of them aren't happy! The others are just rightfully wary that Bog is the boss. The horse you're leading should trust that you're their guide, even if Bog is around.

Not sure about Dusty but I hope he's okay.

 

[GrassChop]

Ps I know that video is normal, it’s an example of what I consider ok. It’s the random rage that concerns me.

He looks great.

I genuinely wouldn't think anything of it if it was a mare.

But honestly, they're establishing hierarchy and based on what you said Bog used to do to others in the herd, I would have said a double barrel was a gentle warning in his books!

Some horses don't know how to be a leader without being a bully.