Bramham horse trials accident

[Upthecreek]

True, but that should mean more eliminations, more riders retiring, and not there being two dead horses. "Technically challenging" shouldn't mean fatal ffs.

But at this level eliminations are relatively uncommon because most of the riders and the horses aren’t going to say no, they will be giving everything a go. Whatever the level riders only retire if they think the horse isn’t capable of continuing (for whatever reason). There is a very fine line between technically challenging and potentially fatal, like it or not that is the reality. I saw a horse pts and a rider break their back XC schooling over 80cm fences a few weeks ago.

 

[neddy man]

The grade C showjumping course seemed particularly challenging today too. I can’t remember ever seeing so many runouts or faults, and we go every year. The courses seem to have been particularly challenging despite looking innocuous enough to those spectating.

It was a hoys championship qualifier so up to full height but a tough course only producing 4 clears for the jump off.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Horse ambulances - it depends what type they are. Some are low to the ground and you can walk in the back and walk out the front in a straight line - the tow hitch swivels to the side so a front ramp can drop. These are the ones used to transport injured horses back to the stable yard and onwards to the vet surgery if needed after racing.

Others look like these ambulances but they have a Winch in and take away the ones that have been pts but people want it to look better for the public. Tracks such as Cartmel have these as you can't get the meat wagon on the course to them.

If the leg was very obviously catastrophically broken with no option of saving then I suspect that the latter of the 2 ambulances was used. Public perception and all that. They should/could not have loaded that horse safely if the leg was swinging.

 

[ycbm]

. I saw a horse pts and a rider break their back XC schooling over 80cm fences a few weeks ago.

I understand what you're saying, that any horse riding involves risk to the horse and rider, but around the country there were probably several thousand people who trained at 80cm on that day, whereas there were only about 100 going xc at Bramham, and two are dead. I don't think it compares.

Like quite a few others on the forum, I'm increasingly unhappy at the questions being asked of horses at the top of world horse sport in order to get a clear winner from a group of elite horses.
.

 

[HashRouge]

I often wonder that too. It must be so painful being transported across a bumpy field in a trailer with a broken leg. I think it’s perhaps because they’re very expensive, too level animals and owners need to make the decision?

I'm not convinced the horse would actually have been transported live unless they weren't certain the leg was broken. If it had a very obviously broken leg, surely it would have been put to sleep and then transported? If the screens were up, you wouldn't know I guess. I was at the Hickstead Derby when Navalo de Poheton broke his leg on the flat and it was so obviously broken, I always assumed that he was put to sleep behind the screens and then winched into the trailer. But the announcer kept saying over the tannoy "just a loose bandage folks", which I think was for the kids in the audience. So maybe at Bramham they just said he was being transported for assessment because it's less upsetting than saying he's been put to sleep with a broken leg.

 

[Snowfilly]

I'm not convinced the horse would actually have been transported live unless they weren't certain the leg was broken. If it had a very obviously broken leg, surely it would have been put to sleep and then transported? If the screens were up, you wouldn't know I guess. I was at the Hickstead Derby when Navalo de Poheton broke his leg on the flat and it was so obviously broken, I always assumed that he was put to sleep behind the screens and then winched into the trailer. But the announcer kept saying over the tannoy "just a loose bandage folks", which I think was for the kids in the audience. So maybe at Bramham they just said he was being transported for assessment because it's less upsetting than saying he's been put to sleep with a broken leg.

I always assumed that they’re PTS on the spot, and the lie about being taken for assessment is for the owners / trainers / connections to be contacted and told privately, in case they’re not aware and don’t have to hear of their horse’s death over the tannoys. I remember the Hickstead incident, there was no ethical way he could have been left alive for a minute longer than necessary.

 

[Bernster]

? so sad

 

[Sandstone1]

I question more and more if we have the right to use horses for sport and our entertainment.

 

[MagicMelon]

2 horses dead isnt acceptable. Are we pushing them too much? Im an eventer at heart but Im really struggling with the higher level and the risk of death for sport. I will never compete at the level I used to, I feel its not worth the risk anymore.

The have to make the courses less technical, theyve gone mad. Beef up the show jumping, at least its considered safer. But for horses to die often when its rider error is just insane. I know I wouldnt want my horses death on my hands if I messed up a related distance.

 

[MagicMelon]

I often wonder that too. It must be so painful being transported across a bumpy field in a trailer with a broken leg. I think it’s perhaps because they’re very expensive, too level animals and owners need to make the decision?

Surely the owner could simply get in a car and be rushed to the horse to make a decision... I think its sickening if they force a seriously injured horse onto a trailer then drive it anywhere let alone across bumpy fields. Hate that even the thought of their value comes into it. At the end of the day an expensive horse deserves a kind end just the same as a cheap horse!

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Surely the owner could simply get in a car and be rushed to the horse to make a decision... I think its sickening if they force a seriously injured horse onto a trailer then drive it anywhere let alone across bumpy fields. Hate that even the thought of their value comes into it. At the end of the day an expensive horse deserves a kind end just the same as a cheap horse!

In racing it is the vets that make the decision not the owner or trainer. Both vets have to agree it is unsavable and the horse is down before the adrenaline has left it's body. And some of these horses are worth millions. It is the horse that comes first. I would be very surprised if it was done any differently with eventers. But that's not a sport I know much about.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I often wonder that too. It must be so painful being transported across a bumpy field in a trailer with a broken leg. I think it’s perhaps because they’re very expensive, too level animals and owners need to make the decision?

I would expect that pain relief is administered as soon as the vet is on scene and given time to work before the horse is loaded, whatever the injury. I wouldn't expect a horse with an obviously broken leg to be transported alive.

 

[scats]

The chestnut that broke a leg at Liverpool a few years ago was transported out of the arena in a horse ambulance. That leg was swinging. Not sure there’s many other options though when there’s an arena full of people watching. It was driven very slowly out of the arena and I’m guessing destroyed as soon as it got out the back.

 

[Upthecreek]

I understand what you're saying, that any horse riding involves risk to the horse and rider, but around the country there were probably several thousand people who trained at 80cm on that day, whereas there were only about 100 going xc at Bramham, and two are dead. I don't think it compares.

Like quite a few others on the forum, I'm increasingly unhappy at the questions being asked of horses at the top of world horse sport in order to get a clear winner from a group of elite horses.
.

I completely agree with you. The technical questions combined with the sheer size of the fences is making the sport more dangerous than it has ever been. With two years of reduced opportunities for competing and getting valuable experience under your belt and you have a perfect storm. Saying that, can you realistically ensure that horse and rider are adequately prepared for any/every type of fence? Particularly when course builders are striving to build more inventive and testing courses, which sometimes makes you feel like they are trying to catch you out.

 

[Rowreach]

I completely agree with you. The technical questions combined with the sheer size of the fences is making the sport more dangerous than it has ever been. With two years of reduced opportunities for competing and getting valuable experience under your belt and you have a perfect storm. Saying that, can you realistically ensure that horse and rider are adequately prepared for any/every type of fence? Particularly when course builders are striving to build more inventive and testing courses, which sometimes makes you feel like they are trying to catch you out.

Quite. The riders get to walk the course, the horses don't. And these courses are catching the horses out. Someone upthread commented that top level horses very rarely refuse an obstacle (more likely to glance off one and miss a flag) and this is part of the problem. The riders are committed because they have to be, the horses are committed because they are trained to be, and if something goes wrong (missed stride, trip, gawping at an unexpected ditch in front of a B element skinny) it goes very very wrong.

I hope there is a lot of reviewing going on in the next few days.

 

[Wishfilly]

It's tragic there have been two horse deaths at such a high profile event.

I think we all know that freak accidents can occur, but it sounds like the fence was causing a lot of problems and one of them happened to be fatal.

I think most people don't want to see crashing falls. They want to see XC being influential through run outs, refusals, maybe rider falls, retirements etc, but not falls where you fear for the safety of both horse and rider.

I do think course builders need to take into account that the last two seasons were very interrupted, and so horses and riders haven't had the "match practice" at high levels that we are used to- and so they need to ensure all questions are fair for horses and riders as they are now, not as they were in 2019.

Eventing is a much more niche sport than racing, and if there are horse deaths and serious rider injuries, I think the sport needs to be seen to make changes quickly to ensure its future.

 

[sport horse]

It was a hoys championship qualifier so up to full height but a tough course only producing 4 clears for the jump off.

There were actually 5 clear in the first round, 4 went double clear and the 5th retired from the jump off. 13 in the first round had just 4 faults, 1 had 5 faults and 5 had 8 faults. 10 horses had 12 faults or above and 5 retired plus 3 eliminated.

I think the problem is that people do not realise the difficulty of a 1.35m course on grass and overestimate their own and the horses capability. Maybe the judges should be quicker to bring in a standard and compulsorily retire competitors accruing too many faults? While with knock down fences and break away cups on spreads it is not as dangerous to the horses as cross country accidents, it is not particularly attractive to spectators to see and damaging to the sport.

 

[Fieldlife]

The chestnut that broke a leg at Liverpool a few years ago was transported out of the arena in a horse ambulance. That leg was swinging. Not sure there’s many other options though when there’s an arena full of people watching. It was driven very slowly out of the arena and I’m guessing destroyed as soon as it got out the back.

Surely you put screens up and destroy it in the arena behind screens, over transporting with a broken leg?

I’ve been at arena events where horse fell, put screens up, luckily was just winded.

 

[scats]

Surely you put screens up and destroy it in the arena behind screens, over transporting with a broken leg?

I’ve been at arena events where horse fell, put screens up, luckily was just winded.

But then you’ve got to get the body of a dead horse out of an arena full of families and children. Plus the potential implications of something going wrong during the actual euthanasia. There can be a lot of movement and noise from a horse after the injection is given. One of mine did a fantastic impression of galloping whilst on the floor. He wasn’t aware of anything but he didn’t half move! And I can’t imagine they’d shoot a horse in the middle of a packed family event, somehow.
I think in these circumstances they have little choice other than to get the animal out of the arena as quickly as possible and do the deed once it’s backstage.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

This is a similar death rate to a day of racing...

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

But then you’ve got to get the body of a dead horse out of an arena full of families and children. Plus the potential implications of something going wrong during the actual euthanasia. There can be a lot of movement and noise from a horse after the injection is given. One of mine did a fantastic impression of galloping whilst on the floor. He wasn’t aware of anything but he didn’t half move! And I can’t imagine they’d shoot a horse in the middle of a packed family event, somehow.
I think in these circumstances they have little choice other than to get the animal out of the arena as quickly as possible and do the deed once it’s backstage.

Proper screens are very tall and give a large amount of room. More than enough room for a horse to go up and over and flail without being seen by the outside world.

 

[MagicMelon]

This is a similar death rate to a day of racing...

Well except hundreds more are killed in racing overall... which is why I absolutely hate racing. Im really struggling with top level eventing now too Things have to change.

Its absolutely sickening if they load a horse to remove it to be put down. Truly awful. Put screens up and do it there and then. If they cannot move the body then they need something in place to be able to do this on this awful occasions. If it were my horse, I would demand it was put down there and then personally.

 

[sport horse]

Well except hundreds more are killed in racing overall... which is why I absolutely hate racing. Im really struggling with top level eventing now too Things have to change.

Its absolutely sickening if they load a horse to remove it to be put down. Truly awful. Put screens up and do it there and then. If they cannot move the body then they need something in place to be able to do this on this awful occasions. If it were my horse, I would demand it was put down there and then personally.

Maybe they needed to get it to a good vet facility and x rays before making a final decision. I have seen a very bad tendon injury and thought it was a broken leg - the horse lived on for many years.

 

[twiggy2]

That is interesting, thank you. I was at a point to point today and a horse broke a foreleg in front of me. It was shot and in the knackerwagon very quickly. It was assessed by vets and the horse ambulance turned up first but was not needed.
Why in eventing is a cataclysmic injury transported? For the horse or the public?

Well it's certainly not for the horse, poor souk.

I often wonder that too. It must be so painful being transported across a bumpy field in a trailer with a broken leg. I think it’s perhaps because they’re very expensive, too level animals and owners need to make the decision?

Ow ers don't need to make the decision, my vet had an event horse and it was a schooling session when if had a freak fall and broke a front leg/shoulder, the new vet at the practice was first on scene and the horse was PTS before the owner and their new boss arrived as it was not ethical to make the horse wait, the new vet earned their place at the practice that day by doing right by the animal regardless of the implications for themselves.

The chestnut that broke a leg at Liverpool a few years ago was transported out of the arena in a horse ambulance. That leg was swinging. Not sure there’s many other options though when there’s an arena full of people watching. It was driven very slowly out of the arena and I’m guessing destroyed as soon as it got out the back.

But then you’ve got to get the body of a dead horse out of an arena full of families and children. Plus the potential implications of something going wrong during the actual euthanasia. There can be a lot of movement and noise from a horse after the injection is given. One of mine did a fantastic impression of galloping whilst on the floor. He wasn’t aware of anything but he didn’t half move! And I can’t imagine they’d shoot a horse in the middle of a packed family event, somehow.
I think in these circumstances they have little choice other than to get the animal out of the arena as quickly as possible and do the deed once it’s backstage.

If people cannot deal with the fact and animal that has a broken leg needs to be PTS ASAP then maybe they should not attend these events, making a suffering animal wait and be moved before ending its suffering so people dont get upset is not ethical. Procedures should be put in place to deal with such incidents.

 

[cauda equina]

Many years ago one of Lionel Dunning's horses broke a leg at ?HOYS on live TV
All the lights in the arena were turned off while he was dealt with

 

[Velcrobum]

I have seen a horse PTS at Festival of Eventing, it was done by lethal injection and the body was winched into a horse ambulance. The vets made the call as it had fractured its shoulder.

Ms Poppins was not a fall on the flat according to fence analysis so presumably a tendon injury as these seem to be the most common speed injuries.

What Andrew Nicholson said in H&H is very true about riders getting MER's at "softer" courses.

 

[chaps89]

I don’t know a lot about eventing but would bringing back roads and tracks/steeplechase help, particularly this year if horses aren’t fit enough/horse & riders don’t have the ring practice under their belt? (Although I appreciate it would be late in the season to introduce it again now)

 

[Tiddlypom]

Many years ago one of Lionel Dunning's horses broke a leg at ?HOYS on live TV
All the lights in the arena were turned off while he was dealt with

Beau Supreme, I think. I was watching it on the telly, the lights were turned off and the horse was speedily dealt with.

The horses' welfare should always come first, to heck with upsetting any human punters.

 

[cauda equina]

Yes it was Beau Supreme, a lovely chestnut

 

[scats]

If people cannot deal with the fact and animal that has a broken leg needs to be PTS ASAP then maybe they should not attend these events, making a suffering animal wait and be moved before ending its suffering so people dont get upset is not ethical. Procedures should be put in place to deal with such incidents.

I don’t disagree with you, but I suppose Liverpool is advertised as a family event and attracts a lot of people with children, rather than solely hardened equestrians. It’s a difficult one to be honest.