Bramham horse trials accident

[scats]

Proper screens are very tall and give a large amount of room. More than enough room for a horse to go up and over and flail without being seen by the outside world.

True, but the noises can be distressing.
I don’t disagree, I would prefer the animal dealt with swiftly and it not being subject to a trailer journey, however short, but I was just looking at the problem from all angles.

 

[splashgirl45]

from what i can remember beau supreme was shot and they turned the lights down while they took him out of the arena,and i think his rider was derek ricketts and it was at wembley which was an event where it was not exclusively horse people and quite a few were distressed by it but the horse did not suffer..

 

[Rowreach]

from what i can remember beau supreme was shot and they turned the lights down while they took him out of the arena,and i think his rider was derek ricketts and it was at wembley which was an event where it was not exclusively horse people and quite a few were distressed by it but the horse did not suffer..

Beau Supreme was indeed Derek Ricketts' horse.

 

[Muddywellies]

A good friend who is an ex international eventer (he's in his 60s now and was at the top of his game in the 70s and 80s) has said to me once that there appears to me more accidents as people/horses are no longer gaining experience on the hunting field anymore, and also people are in too much of a hurry to go up through the levels. Can't comment on what specifically happened today though.

 

[AdorableAlice]

A good friend who is an ex international eventer (he's in his 60s now and was at the top of his game in the 70s and 80s) has said to me once that there appears to me more accidents as people/horses are no longer gaining experience on the hunting field anymore, and also people are in too much of a hurry to go up through the levels. Can't comment on what specifically happened today though.

Hunting teaches horses to think and react for themselves.

 

[Upthecreek]

Course-designer Ian Stark on Bramham’s cross-country: ‘The sport is vulnerable and we need to ask questions about what direction we’re going in’ https://trib.al/9Y83K3T

He makes some good points about some of the horses and riders not being adequately prepared and whether this means courses should be ‘dumbed down’ (hate that phrase) as a result.

 

[ycbm]

The chestnut that broke a leg at Liverpool a few years ago was transported out of the arena in a horse ambulance. That leg was swinging. Not sure there’s many other options though when there’s an arena full of people watching. It was driven very slowly out of the arena and I’m guessing destroyed as soon as it got out the back.

I was just going to write about that. It was splinted and taken to Leahurst according to the reports, and PTS there. I also saw that leg swinging free around the knee. It was the last live top class horse sport I watched and I don't think I plan to watch any more.
.

 

[milliepops]

Ian stark mentioned hunting in his comments on the events yesterday.

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/fea...content=horseandhound&utm_campaign=socialflow

 

[splashgirl45]

ian stark sounds quite upset in his h & h article, he is questioning whether the courses need to be easier or if qualifying needs to be more strict and the lower classes more testing..he says he builds courses that he would have liked to jump and is not sure if he will carry on if the courses are being dumbed down...

 

[teapot]

Interesting he mentions all weather surfaces too, is it 'too easy' to only go xc on perfect ground...

 

[Honey08]

Ian Stark said he wanted the course to be a rider frightener, not one to trick horses in his pre Bramham interview.

I am another that would rather a crowd be shocked and a horse put out of its misery straight away than it be transported away to be put down. People need to know what goes on in the world - be it sport or food production. Most people don’t want to know and live in LaLa land.

Re the hunting argument, I was thinking the other day, when Skipton cancelled their BE fixture due to cancellation insurance costing so much. When I was young (I’m in my 50s now) nothing got cancelled for weather. I’ve been round Xc that were knee deep in mud. So you learned to ride in less than perfect conditions. You didn’t go affiliated until novice BE either. Also barely anyone had a school. I had all my lessons in muddy fields too. I think the fact that there is so much arena Eventing and perfect conditions everywhere don’t help either. By the way I’m not saying riding Xc knee deep in mud is ideal, but a bit of rain shouldn’t stop Xc.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

This is very sad indeed.

Firstly let me say that I wasn't actually there at the event and didn't see the fences or the incidents in question. Neither have I seen any of it on TV.

I'm sure there's a lot of angst and sorrow doing the rounds at the moment. We've lost a horse at my yard within the last week and it isn't easy for anyone involved.

Two horses having to be "destroyed" (awful phrase) at one event seems to have escaped, or rather gone-under-the-Radar of the "anti" horse sports brigade; imagine if this had been the Grand National or another of the popular Races, everyone would be up in arms about it.

Pure conjecture on my part possibly, but I do wonder whether the problem is that indeed horses are not coming up to the world of Eventing via the hunting field which is what always used to happen and they'd get used to finding that extra leg when they needed it as well as developing the stamina needed to get through the day. Perhaps because of the value of these horses from an early age, they are not hunted simply because they are deemed too "valuable" to be put at risk??

Something feels like it needs to change: is it about "horses for courses"; or "courses for horses" - if that makes sense.

Very sad for all concerned, and for equestrian sport in general.

 

[tristar]

part B of the jump has a road thing behind it, in its direct line of vision, my first thought was how distracting it was on the approach to it, almost made me think what is that and if the horses thought that too

 

[stormox]

My heart really goes out to all the people connected with the horses who died. Very sad.
But horses fall eventing and xc because the fences are solid. Far fewer horses fall during show jumping.
However, whether a fall results in a fatal injury, or horse getting up and walking away unhurt is surely down to chance?
So just because a horse died surely does not mean something was wrong with the course, it was pure bad luck. It is the overall number of falls people need to take note of, not the comparitively few fatal ones.

 

[Rowreach]

Hmm, if we're harking back in time, competition horses used to compete during the season (late spring, summer, early autumn) and then go hunting/have an extended holiday during the winter. There were no indoor schools (well, hardly any) and no competition venues running events all through the winter.

Hardly anything was cancelled due to hard ground, soft ground, although possibly really wet ground if it was going to affect farmers' fields.

I don't think the blame for this year's incidents can be entirely placed at the door of lack of match fitness - the Badminton course was widely criticised, and the same may happen with Bramham. And if you know that you have an entire cohort of horses and riders coming through who've missed out on practice, then don't build bloody great tricky courses this year or even next.

 

[Wishfilly]

Perhaps slightly controversial, but I don't think it's all down to the horses and riders, and their prep. I'm sure hunting made a difference in the past, but equally now people have access to great XC schooling facilities etc, so they can practice the more technical questions etc and get them right, and build the horse's bravery with spooky questions.

If you look back in time, the courses were big and meaty (and obviously still dangerous) BUT I think now they have become more technical AND we have a lower tolerance for horses getting hurt.

Course builders are trying to build courses that cause the XC to be influential, which is right- but we have to consider that if (for example) horses are less likely to refuse, we're not going to punish honest horses taking off on a dodgy stride etc.

I do think the qualification system needs to be looked at- but it's not all inexperienced riders having these falls.

 

[neddy man]

2 riders were taken to hospital and kept in overnight for observation, Alisa Wates who fell at fence 17, and French rider Stanislas de Zuchowicz who fell at the 2nd fence was allowed out this morning and Alisa should be allowed out later today.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Hunting teaches horses to think and react for themselves.

And riders.

I rode mostly with non jumping packs, but hunting certainly teaches you how to pick your line crossing tricky terrain, how to cope with the unexpected and how to conserve energy.

Ian Stark sounded pretty broken in that piece in H&H. He's someone that I admire tremendously.

 

[DressageCob]

I always think it's outrageous that a horse's suffering would be prolonged to avoid upsetting children and spectators. The only question should be what is in the horse's interests. There's always a risk of horses or riders being injured or killed in eventing, so if you're not happy with the risk of your child or you seeing the bad side of eventing, don't go. It's awful and I would hate to see a fatal fall live, but I would be appalled to see a horse transported with an obviously catastrophic injury, as in the Liverpool leg swinging situation.

 

[Nicnac]

What a heartfelt interview with Ian Stark. He does speak a hell of a lot of common sense. I had the opportunity to meet him at Badminton and really warmed to him. It was on the Friday evening and his stomach was in knots. He still events too so his experience is very much 'live' vs. a lot of other course builders.

 

[Malibu_Stacy]

My heart really goes out to all the people connected with the horses who died. Very sad.
But horses fall eventing and xc because the fences are solid. Far fewer horses fall during show jumping.
However, whether a fall results in a fatal injury, or horse getting up and walking away unhurt is surely down to chance?
So just because a horse died surely does not mean something was wrong with the course, it was pure bad luck. It is the overall number of falls people need to take note of, not the comparitively few fatal ones.

This may be true to a degree, and certainly for the US horse who appears to have been pulled up between fences rather than fell BUT we watched 4 riders IIRC at the fence in question after the course had restarted of whom only one jumped it well; two were awkward but made it over, one the horse clonked it’s loin on the b part and rider popped out the side door. A couple of riders after that someone else came off at the same jump. We didn’t see that but we did the loose horse having a very jolly time galloping round the track sans rider!

3 falls, one of which resulted in a fatality, in 15 odd riders to me indicates an issue with either the fence or the way it’s being ridden, not just bad luck.

 

[HashRouge]

And riders.

I rode mostly with non jumping packs, but hunting certainly teaches you how to pick your line crossing tricky terrain, how to cope with the unexpected and how to conserve energy.

Ian Stark sounded pretty broken in that piece in H&H. He's someone that I admire tremendously.

But was eventing actually any safer in the past? I.e. fewer falls/ fatalities? I have no idea of the figures, but I'd be surprised if it was! Is it not just that we now have very low tolerance for serious injuries/ fatalities involving horses?

 

[splashgirl45]

i dont remember fatalities but dont forget we now have social media and news travels fast so we know what has happened on the day. maybe it was as bad when i was younger and i have forgotten. would be interesting to know

 

[twiggy2]

I don’t disagree with you, but I suppose Liverpool is advertised as a family event and attracts a lot of people with children, rather than solely hardened equestrians. It’s a difficult one to be honest.

Kids are wrapped up in cotton wool and protected from real life happenings far too often in my opinion and its doesn't do them any favours in the long run they grow up to think it is OK for animals to suffer to save our own feelings and that's not right.

 

[scats]

Kids are wrapped up in cotton wool and protected from real life happenings far too often in my opinion and its doesn't do them any favours in the long run they grow up to think it is OK for animals to suffer to save our own feelings and that's not right.

I think a big problem is that events like Liverpool International depend on the ticket sales to run. If you put people off going because they had a bad experience last year, you run the risk of them not going again. I witnessed the horrific incident with the chestnut horse and we had a sickening view of its swinging leg before they got the screens round. The woman sat next to us got up and left. I doubt she was the only one. If a horse has been put down in the arena, I think a whole lot more would have gone and probably never come back again. Then the future of the event hangs in the balance. But I suppose that brings us back to the age old question of whether we should be using horses for sport/entertainment at all…

 

[Old school]

There are a few mentions of protecting children from distressing scenes on the thread. I personally think that a lot of the issue with eventing starts with 'children' being at the front, centre and back of so many decisions.
I have a particular criticism of Pony Eventing. Children are plopped onto made ponies because parents have deep pockets and loud voices. Pony eventing started in Ireland just over 30 years ago. Is it the same in UK?
These children then moved onto horses, and guess what, it ain't so easy anymore. Real skill and hours in the saddle are needed to make a horse, never mind what it takes to get to the higher levels. But they are used to their voices being heard and are very demanding. So changes are made to format etc. Warmbloods became a high fashion item in eventing. The Germans got good scores. Things started to change, slowly but surely.
We arrive where we are today, very technical tracks, horses being checked left right and centre. Not really being confident of what is being asked of them, but ridden hard and ugly, so they concede and keep trying to please the rider.

This leads into another issue is the whisper criticism...Anyone who goes on their 5th or 6th spin at 90cm track is poo pooed for not racing up the levels when in fact they are establishing the basics. Again, the most common voice behind this criticism is the non riding parent, 'oh is xxxx still only at 90cm?'.
I am not super knowledgeable or a great rider, but you just cannot skip on the basics and establishing that horse knows what is expected of it BEFORE you take it a higher fence or a more difficult question to understand. I have learnt the hard way.

Ego is really behind these issues and no one wants make anyone accountable. Thank you, rant over.

 

[milliepops]

I was at the first Express Eventing competition where Call Again Cavalier broke a leg. It was horrible as an audience stuck up in the stands because unlike a normal xc where only part of the spectators are at any one fence, literally everyone is there watching it all happen. I think Mary said he was pts in the stabling area.

 

[Orangehorse]

There have been many comments on whether or not the horse was PTS immediately or put into the trailer and assessed later. We don't know, we weren't there nor do we know what the protocol is.

I would agree with the person who said that any announcement for the public that the horse has been transported for assessment is indeed for the connections who are at the event and may well be at the other end of the course. Who would want to hear over the tannoy that their horse is dead? It might well be dead, having been PTS immediately by the trailer, out of sight behind the screens, but does the public really need to know that? Of course there are going to be children and others who would be terribly upset if it was shouted out for everyone to hear.

I think that the announcement is to try to lessen the shock for everyone.

 

[Orangehorse]

There are a few mentions of protecting children from distressing scenes on the thread. I personally think that a lot of the issue with eventing starts with 'children' being at the front, centre and back of so many decisions.
I have a particular criticism of Pony Eventing. Children are plopped onto made ponies because parents have deep pockets and loud voices. Pony eventing started in Ireland just over 30 years ago. Is it the same in UK?
These children then moved onto horses, and guess what, it ain't so easy anymore. Real skill and hours in the saddle are needed to make a horse, never mind what it takes to get to the higher levels. But they are used to their voices being heard and are very demanding. So changes are made to format etc. Warmbloods became a high fashion item in eventing. The Germans got good scores. Things started to change, slowly but surely.
We arrive where we are today, very technical tracks, horses being checked left right and centre. Not really being confident of what is being asked of them, but ridden hard and ugly, so they concede and keep trying to please the rider.

This leads into another issue is the whisper criticism...Anyone who goes on their 5th or 6th spin at 90cm track is poo pooed for not racing up the levels when in fact they are establishing the basics. Again, the most common voice behind this criticism is the non riding parent, 'oh is xxxx still only at 90cm?'.
I am not super knowledgeable or a great rider, but you just cannot skip on the basics and establishing that horse knows what is expected of it BEFORE you take it a higher fence or a more difficult question to understand. I have learnt the hard way.

Ego is really behind these issues and no one wants make anyone accountable. Thank you, rant over.

I agree with you about children in eventing. I have known of too many serious accidents, including fatal ones, with teenagers riding youngish horses. They have probably been successful on a pony, but then are bought a nice young horse, but they lack the experience, riding skills and even strength to ride this horse and sadly ends in disaster.

 

[sport horse]

I recall a lady being killed at a low level riding club event back in the 1960's just jumping a log. Horse stopped, she did not and fell over the log, the horse then jumped and landed on her head. No crash hats even in thos days. Sadly accidents have always happened.