Brave people post "good shoeing" pix please

[cptrayes]

Ok here are photos of my boy. He is a week overdue (being shod wednesday this week) and he threw a shoe off his LF out hunting Xmas eve so it has a 'newer' shoe on.

Photos are in order: RF, RH, LH, LF



RF

RH

LH

LF

To me they look a little short in the heel but nothing unusual, especially in a hunter. Your farrier also seems to shoe every foot with one branch of the shoe longer (the outer) than the other?

I'm struck, though, by something which is very common in shod horses, and that is how different the angle of the first half inch of his feet is compared to the rest. This sometimes happens because the farrier is trying to keep the angle of the heel parallel with the angle of the front. In doing that, he leaves the heel longer. The horse counters this by putting out a longer toe, and then the farrier has to allow the heel to get higher again to get the lines parallel. In time, over many years, the whole foot moves foward. I'm not saying that this is what has happened with your horse, but I would want to investigate why the natural angle that he wants for his foot (the first half inch from the coronet band) is not the angle of the rest of his foot. If you compare with A Guildings son's pictures from early on, you might see what I mean. In those photos there is an unbroken line from the coronet down.

 

[Circe]

Thank you for posting these (and please don't beat yourself up - you're not the first and won't be the last to trust your 'professional')

I would love to know the theory behind the obviously too big shoes. I believe the foot should be shod to mimic where the foot should be - but that foot had so much flare why would you want to encourage it to spread further?

The feet look much much better now though, and no doubt a diet change has helped reduce the flare, along with much better shoeing. My only comment would be that i *think* there could be a better heel height/angle but that is common with shod hooves. People - correct me if i'm wrong!

So glad your story has a happy ending though
Trina x

thankyou. I feel there has been further improvement in his feet, I just dont have more recent photos, I can try and get some tomorrow if anyone is interested.
I learnt a lot about feeding from my farrier, and also reading some of the barefoot threads on here, and I would say that with this horse diet was the biggest factor in his feet problems.
I think the thing with the bigger shoes was to encourage the hoof to grow into them, "hoof follows metal " Ive been told.
Kx

 

[cptrayes]

I wish there were some more comments from someone other than me. I know a lot but I am no expert and I certainly am not a farrier. My aim in this thread is to encourage people to take a keen interest in their horse's feet so that they have a better chance of spotting problems before they happen. I hope we can do that.

 

[Capriole]

I wish there were some more comments from someone other than me. I know a lot but I am no expert and I certainly am not a farrier. My aim in this thread is to encourage people to take a keen interest in their horse's feet so that they have a better chance of spotting problems before they happen. I hope we can do that.

Its very useful. Thankyou. Its only in recent years Ive realised how much there is I dont know, and how much I thought I knew has either changed, or turned out to have never been correct in the first place

This applies to everything, not just hooves btw...

 

[Circe]

Dont be to Harsh on the farriers I have seen nothing to bad in these photos, As some of you clinicians know that conditions that attack the hoof capsule can be very climate driven, they can cause hoof capsule failure then they correct as conditions and treatments alter. The resecting of the wall to expose the seedy toe was the correct procedure, but I will only do that these days with a vet present as it could be termed a surgical procedure.

I guess the main reason I was so upset the first farrier I used was that he wasn't truthful with me about how the hoof was progressing, when I asked him directly if he still had problems ( remembering that jazz had seedy toe when I bought him, so he was starting with a horse with a problem ) he told me he was fine, the feet were fine. I really would have preferred him to be truthful.

 

[floradora09]

I personally wouldn't be happy with these shoes. They are set on so far forward that the breakover point (where the last of the horse's foot leaves the floor as it walks) has been artificially moved forwards by quite a long way. The last one in particular I would be very concerned about, the shoe is clearly out in front of his toe (though admittedly the toe appears to be a bit broken off)

It used to be very frowned upon 20 years ago to "dump" (rasp off) the toe. I think it is now widely recognised that bringing the breakover back by rasping off the toe and fitting the shoe back from the front edge is a good thing which will help to guard against soft tissue injury in the back half of the foot.

The heels are a different kettle of fish and a lot of owners should compare the heels on their own horse's shoes with them. These, as far as I am concerned, are correct. Unfortunately, a lot of horses are shod a lot shorter in the heel than this, either because the owner bugs the farrier that their horse pulls off shoes too easily, or because the farrier does not want the risk of the shoes being pulled off.

Thanks for that. Shows how much I know, as I'd have said that toes looked fine but heels didn't! Before you edited I think I read something about not being rolled? He's actually got rolled toes in front, but I agree you probably can't see them from pics. He did lose some of the toe whilst being without shoes, so this probably enhances it... Food for thought though, he's onto his second shoeing now so perhaps today I shall get some pics and post?

He does pull shoes a lot, so farrier does try to shoe in a way which minimises this, hence rolled toe and perhaps putting shoe on a little further forward?

Along the same line of thought, what are your views on using pads to help prevent concussion during the summer months? Only reason I ask, is that I wondered if they'd help my boy, but farrier reluctant as felt they'd do more harm than good because would make him more likely to pull the shoe off.

 

[trina1982]

I wish there were some more comments from someone other than me. I know a lot but I am no expert and I certainly am not a farrier. My aim in this thread is to encourage people to take a keen interest in their horse's feet so that they have a better chance of spotting problems before they happen. I hope we can do that.

But this either indicates that people generally aren't confident enough to tell a well shod horse from a badly shod OR don't actually care (thats the farriers job) OR do have the knowledge and are unwilling to participate (which is a real shame ) OR think they know but don't want to give 'advice' on an open forum incase they are wrong.

If this thread though makes just one person go and objectively look at their horses feet, then job done in my opinion

Trina x

 

[sbloom]

It used to be very frowned upon 20 years ago to "dump" (rasp off) the toe. I think it is now widely recognised that bringing the breakover back by rasping off the toe and fitting the shoe back from the front edge is a good thing which will help to guard against soft tissue injury in the back half of the foot.

But it's still really important that that toe rasping is done correctly. I'm no expert but have experienced really good NB shoeing, and good barefoot as well as a mix of traditional farriery and certainly when I was learning more about feet (mostly 10 years ago, ish) the toe should never be rasped from the top. This tends to give that awful bulging "bullnosed" look, where a farrier is trying to bring breakover back, and partially succeeding, but damaging the hoof wall horribly in the process. I think this is why rasping the toe back was dissed. The correct way is from side to side in order to leave the toe with a "return" back to the shoe, at 90 degrees to the hoof wall. Totally different, facilitates a quick breakover, when the shoe is set back below this bevel, and does not compromise hoof wall integrity.

I'd also like to point out that the last set of pics, though by no means horrendous, does show the classic narrow frog with a large gap in front of the point of the frog before the shoe, plus a pretty narrow shoe. This I believe is called rim shoeing and I do think it is very hard to get the feet right with this sort of approach. The shoe should be set back as others have said, nearer the frog, and the hoof balance worked on to widen that frog.

 

[A Guilding]

I guess the main reason I was so upset the first farrier I used was that he wasn't truthful with me about how the hoof was progressing, when I asked him directly if he still had problems ( remembering that jazz had seedy toe when I bought him, so he was starting with a horse with a problem ) he told me he was fine, the feet were fine. I really would have preferred him to be truthful.

I,m sure you are right, but he was doing a good job, if he had a failing it was customer handling, let me tell you there is no college for that. You get burned by telling some the truth and burned for trying to be reassuring. Personally it is the hardest thing and only comes from employing someone you are comfortable with. I find you dont work for someone long if you dont have that trust in each other. But I can assure you that you did not cause your horse suffering, seedy toe can have enormous secondary problems as you found out.

 

[cptrayes]

Along the same line of thought, what are your views on using pads to help prevent concussion during the summer months? Only reason I ask, is that I wondered if they'd help my boy, but farrier reluctant as felt they'd do more harm than good because would make him more likely to pull the shoe off.

Ah! One thing I did not comment because I didn't think that I could see it clearly enough is that I think your boy may have a slight outward curve (bullnose) to his hind feet. I've seen these several times and each time they have been associated with a horse which does not deal well with excess carbohydrate, particularly spring/summer grass. If your boy does have this, then his "concussion" laminitis could actually be very low grade dietary laminitis, which is weakening the laminae and allowing the foot to become concussed.

It is possible that you would be able to control the concussion problem with a few changes to his diet - for example if you do not already do so, take him off grass from midmorning to sunset in spring and summer. If you want more information on this search the site for barefoot and diet. There is a ton of information about it which is equally applicable to shod horses.

I personally wouldn't try pads before adjusting his diet and pads would be a very last step for me because of the mess that the feet often get in underneath them. I've used them in the past. The shoes stayed on fine but the feet went soggy underneath.

 

[ester]

CP I don't know whether it's appropriate to put this query here as it is slightly off thread, so I won't mind if you don't answer but wonder if my assumptions are totally wrong!

barefooters like a horse to have a nice big fat frog giving good contact and cushioning with the ground.

I assume it is not possible for the frog to properly touch the ground in a shod horse without having the heels trimmed to low and because it doesn't touch the ground it wouldn't ever have enough stimulation to grow big enough that it could But, farriers trimming frogs is a bad thing but if they didn't trim, because the frog is not in contact with the ground it has nothing to wear off the rubbish bits (iyswim!). I suppose in essence is the frog of a shod hoof ever going to grow beefy enough to touch ground and look after itself?

I think if I look at a set of photos I don't really analyse them enough bar the obvious. For instance I saw aliceflapjacks and liked those feet.. mostly because I had heel jealousy!

 

[ThePony]

But this either indicates that people generally aren't confident enough to tell a well shod horse from a badly shod OR don't actually care (thats the farriers job) OR do have the knowledge and are unwilling to participate (which is a real shame ) OR think they know but don't want to give 'advice' on an open forum incase they are wrong.

If this thread though makes just one person go and objectively look at their horses feet, then job done in my opinion

Trina x

Sorry, reading and not commenting either! It's because I just don't know enough. My ability to judge shod feet is shocking. I just don't have the knowledge. I can post and ask alot of questions though if that would help the convo?!

I didn't spot the issues with OH mare when she was shod, so less than perfect shoeing continued for longer than it should have. I was always there when they were shod and asked the farrier how their feet were doing and no mention was ever made of the changes that were going on with her feet. I belived the answer and went on in happy ignorance. It is only with the benefit of hindsight that I can see the changes and understand that they weren't a good thing. I wouldn't have balamed my farrier for changes, but I would have appreciated him answering my questions more fully, rather than a rather short 'they are fine'. If you don't know a little about what is going on then you aren't going to know the right questions to ask. Farrier was a grand bloke and shod well, but niggles fecked her feet. Shoes came off a while after and I have made sure that my knowledge has been increased. I understand more now how important it is to know what I am looking at.

I have to admit that other than some wince inducing examples on the yard, I still find it hard to evaluate shod feet - other than blindingly obvious stacked and contracted heels and farriers very keen for a horse to have matching feet.

On some of the posted pics it seems that the frog isn't evenly sized on both sides - Aliceflapjack LF and one further back with the stud hole - am assuming that is because the weight distribution isn't equal. What is the reason for that?

 

[cptrayes]

the toe should never be rasped from the top. .

I would just qualify that by saying that if a horse is in danger of overreach injuries then I think it is fine to rasp back the bottom of the hoof at the toe on the hind feet quite strongly.

And that moderate sculpting of the line and the toe on the front feet is, for me, acceptable for aesthetic purposes (especially if the owner would be concerned by the unconventional look of a toe trimmed the way you suggest). Since there is no weight being placed on it anyway, with the shoe set back, I don't think a little thinning of the wall will cause any issues.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I can't post them on this thread as my mare is shoeless at the moment, but I'll go out and take some up to date photos of her progress and I'll start a new thread for them.

I am finding this thread very interesting, thank you for starting it Cptrayes.

Now I have become uber sensitive to how a horse is shod, the two most common things that I see are 1, flair and 2, the shoe set too far forwards (heels under-run and the breakover too far forwards).

 

[milesjess]

This is a great thread. I think the teaching of shoeing/ hooves is pretty poor and people aren't educated as much on it as they should be. It's great to see people seeking advice and help very interesting thread that I'll certainly follow!

 

[cptrayes]

CP I don't know whether it's appropriate to put this query here as it is slightly off thread, so I won't mind if you don't answer but wonder if my assumptions are totally wrong!

barefooters like a horse to have a nice big fat frog giving good contact and cushioning with the ground.

I assume it is not possible for the frog to properly touch the ground in a shod horse without having the heels trimmed to low and because it doesn't touch the ground it wouldn't ever have enough stimulation to grow big enough that it could But, farriers trimming frogs is a bad thing but if they didn't trim, because the frog is not in contact with the ground it has nothing to wear off the rubbish bits (iyswim!). I suppose in essence is the frog of a shod hoof ever going to grow beefy enough to touch ground and look after itself?

I think if I look at a set of photos I don't really analyse them enough bar the obvious. For instance I saw aliceflapjacks and liked those feet.. mostly because I had heel jealousy!

It is widely accepted in barefoot circles that the frog should be so firmly in contact with the ground that it is impossible to slide a steel ruler underneath it. There are, however, plenty of sound barefooters where this is not the case and my friend has one. Boxy feet often fail to achieve frog/ground contact.

I had a chat with two barefoot farriers once who assured me that they could shoe with the frog in contact with the floor. I don't believe that is true on a routine basis, because with most horses you would have to cut their heel so low to allow for the height of the shoe that you would be drawing blood.

I think farriers trim frogs mainly because they think the owner wants to see them look neat. Unless the frog is infected or there are bits falling off, it serves no purpose that I can tell at all. Maybe AG can enlighten us.

If I had to have shoes on a horse I would be trying to work regularly in sand arenas, to get the pressure onto the frog with a semi-firm surface. I'd also be turning out in a nice lumpy bumpy paddock that would press into the frog. And I'd want to take the shoes off for 12 weeks a year to restore frog pressure for a while, like they did in the "good old days".

Regarding your jealousy of AF's heels , interestingly, the broken line of the front of the feet on AF's photos suggest that the heel may be unnaturally high, though many people would envy them.

 

[ester]

lumpy bumpy paddock... check

 

[Spyda]

Here are mine. I posted this link back along but got mixed comments - some thought shoeing job was excellent, others were appalled! See what you think http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm162/khovan/Shoeing 14-10-2011/ Comments welcome!

 

[ester]

spyda we need a password to get in!

 

[Spyda]

spyda we need a password to get in!

Oooops, sorry - I'll make it 'public'! http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm162/khovan/Shoeing 14-10-2011/

 

[cptrayes]

lumpy bumpy paddock... check

Technical term

Yup, password please Spyda

 

[cptrayes]

I think that is technically very good shoeing and what I would want to see on a horse of mine. It tries to mimic as far as it can the breakover of an unshod horse.

Your farrier has perhaps shod with more width at the heel than usual, but clearly he feels your horse needs that support.

I think the problem you had with people saying that they were bad is that to the layman they look as if they don't fit (too big) and have been put on in the wrong place (too far back). In truth, those things are done deliberately and are probably at least partly why your horse has lovely looking feet with what looks like a genuinely parallel front line and heel line.

The only hesitation that I would have is that if someone has a horse with thin soles and a stretched toe, and the farrier goes in one step for shoes as set back as yours, it is possible for the point of the pedal bone to press directly onto the top of the front of the shoe through the sole and lame the horse. So those shoes are great on a strong foot but might be too much too soon for a weak one. This is especially true of "Natural Balance" shoeing and I think is one reason why some people are very much against it.



Are you happy with them Spyda, and more importantly, is your horse?

 

[Spyda]

In truth, those things are done deliberately and are probably partly why your horse has lovely looking feet with what looks like a genuinely parallel front line and heel line.

Music to my ears Because I am one of those who really doesn't know much about correct shoeing - dispite reading lots of books and trying my best to learn.

 

[Oberon]

CP I don't know whether it's appropriate to put this query here as it is slightly off thread, so I won't mind if you don't answer but wonder if my assumptions are totally wrong!

barefooters like a horse to have a nice big fat frog giving good contact and cushioning with the ground.

I assume it is not possible for the frog to properly touch the ground in a shod horse without having the heels trimmed to low and because it doesn't touch the ground it wouldn't ever have enough stimulation to grow big enough that it could But, farriers trimming frogs is a bad thing but if they didn't trim, because the frog is not in contact with the ground it has nothing to wear off the rubbish bits (iyswim!). I suppose in essence is the frog of a shod hoof ever going to grow beefy enough to touch ground and look after itself?

I think if I look at a set of photos I don't really analyse them enough bar the obvious. For instance I saw aliceflapjacks and liked those feet.. mostly because I had heel jealousy!

When a horse is BF the frogs become part of the weight bearing and energy dissipation apparatus (along with the sole, walls, digital cushion, heels and circulation).

The frog, when allowed to be in contact with the ground regularly, will become denser and denser and really tough.

In shoes the frog doesn't get that contact and is soft and spongy. It can't exfoliate and will become ratty and lumpy when shed and more likely to harbour infection. So the farrier paring stops that from becoming an issue.

You can find horses that will try and extend their frogs past their shoes, but these frogs are too weak and spongy to be any use.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

No, for two reasons. Firstly I am incredibly happy with the job my farrier does, and it is totally unfair for me to post pictures of his work on the Internet and invite comment without his knowledge (I'd like him to keep shoeing for me - horse came in crippled thurs night, wouldn't weight bear, he was out 8.30 am fri morning to find the abscess, sorted it and is booked in for mon to replace shoe - refused payment). Secondly, because horse has an abscess and is a bit sore I don't think it's terribly fair on him to ask him to stand on 3 legs whilst I fanny about taking photos!

I hope that doesn't sound like I'm not entering into the spirit of this thread - I think hoof stuff is fascinating, but my farrier hasn't asked to be critiqued in the public domain.

Before and after pics would be great too, with explanation of what has been done and why. I will be the first to admit i know very little in this area but willing to learn - we all have to start somewhere and are not born knowing so any positive info is appreciated.

But this either indicates that people generally aren't confident enough to tell a well shod horse from a badly shod OR don't actually care (thats the farriers job) OR do have the knowledge and are unwilling to participate (which is a real shame ) OR think they know but don't want to give 'advice' on an open forum incase they are wrong.

If this thread though makes just one person go and objectively look at their horses feet, then job done in my opinion

Trina x

IMO, the best way to find out about horses hooves, is to look at the real thing. Talk to the owners, ask who their farrier is, whether the horse has been lame/had abscess/ other problem, find out if there is a reason for a particular style of shoeing, research whether good looking feet/poor looking feet have a farrier in common.

I agree with SpottedCat that it is not ethical to post someone else's work on an open forum to be 'critiqued' by unqualified forum members, who can't agree amongst themselves. As far as I can tell, there is only one poster on this thread who is actually qualified to comment on some-one else's shoeing.

 

[whisp&willow]

ive found reading this interesting, and have seen some very nicely shod feet. (IMO)

i would post pics of my mares feet- but i don't think that would be fair to my farrier. i am very happy with his work, and have no need to reassure myself that he is a good farrier. he would be more than unhappy to find out i'd posted pics for critique on the web!!

what i will say is that she is in natural balance shoes, to keep her toes short and help bring the break-over point back and he leaves the heel branches long enough to support the heels. he will be the first one to suggest taking shoes off if he feels the horse doesn't need them, and commented on the improvement to her feet while she had a two year breeding holiday with no shoes on!

when i brought her back into work she was kept un-shod for as long as possible, and we only decided to put shoes on after talking about it together. i would have put shoes on a couple of months before he did. if she is out of work, the shoes come off, and only go back on when really needed.

xx

 

[A Guilding]

Frogs are to me the most important area of the foot, They are a an indicator of the whole hoof balance, if they lack health, one of that horses team aint doing there job right. Management, if your shoeing schedule doesn't match your horses feet then balance will be effected. If your trimmer talks a better job than he does then balance will be effected, that includes doing to much which usually the consequences are instant to not doing enough where the onset of conditions could be insidious. If your horse has to carry its and yours inappropriately it will show up in the feet.
If your stable management is good then it will reflect in all aspects of your horse including the feet.
I trim the frog with a very sharpe knife that way you can remove unwanted tags and peeling horn as the frog exfoliates. I like a symmetrical frog so i will trim it that way so the clefts are easily visible this will alow it to self clean and prevent areas of bacteria build up. Once properly trimmed and foot balanced it develops that healthy look you all long for.

 

[cptrayes]

IMO, the best way to find out about horses hooves, is to look at the real thing. Talk to the owners, ask who their farrier is, whether the horse has been lame/had abscess/ other problem, find out if there is a reason for a particular style of shoeing, research whether good looking feet/poor looking feet have a farrier in common.

I agree with SpottedCat that it is not ethical to post someone else's work on an open forum to be 'critiqued' by unqualified forum members, who can't agree amongst themselves. As far as I can tell, there is only one poster on this thread who is actually qualified to comment on some-one else's shoeing.

How many miles of countryside do you want people to drive round to do that and how many hours do you think they can afford to spend? This thread is getting thousands of viewers and some of them are posting openly that it is opening their eyes to feet. Surely this can only be a good thing?

A horse's feet are on open display for critique all the time, showing pictures is not much different and no farrier has yet been named, I think. I also don't share your view that the only people whose comments on shoeing are worth listening to are qualified farriers. I just wish more people would come on and stop it looking like I wanted to set myself up as a guru here, because I am definitely not one.

The whole point is to discuss different points of view. It does not matter whether we all agree or not, as long as we raise awareness of the issues. Horses are being lamed by some shoeing. Education will help prevent lame horses and that education will start with awareness.

Your comment is also fairyland, sorry. I had trouble getting my own farrier to tell me what he was doing and why, never mind anyone else's! I can just imagine what response I am likey to get if I walk up to a farrier in a local livery yard who does not know me and start asking him why he is shoeing the way that he is

Lets get back to shoes, shall we folks?

 

[sbloom]

I would just qualify that by saying that if a horse is in danger of overreach injuries then I think it is fine to rasp back the bottom of the hoof at the toe on the hind feet quite strongly.

And that moderate sculpting of the line and the toe on the front feet is, for me, acceptable for aesthetic purposes (especially if the owner would be concerned by the unconventional look of a toe trimmed the way you suggest). Since there is no weight being placed on it anyway, with the shoe set back, I don't think a little thinning of the wall will cause any issues.

I still say there is a good way to do this and a bad way, od of course you can remove toe from a hind foot that is overreaching, but as we are both barefoot advocates ultimately, we'd also both say that the breakover of the front foot is the biggest factor in that. I just think the dangers of rasping the toe from top down far exceed the possible benefits from doing it that way, and not at more of an angle from side to side. And as a saddle fitter I well udnerstand about client preferences and prejudices - as do you on here, I explain the whys and wherefores, and if they still think I'm wrong, then they're not on the journey with me. I can only do my best and I can't overcome years of people thinking it should be done "this" way. Though I see feet and saddles ARE a little different...expenditure, frequency of visits etc, though impact on health can be pretty much as significant!

I should have also added to my first post that I have seen awful NB shoeing as well, and by farriers at the "top" of the NB training system in this country....by the by.

 

[Ladydragon]

IMO, the best way to find out about horses hooves, is to look at the real thing. Talk to the owners, ask who their farrier is, whether the horse has been lame/had abscess/ other problem, find out if there is a reason for a particular style of shoeing, research whether good looking feet/poor looking feet have a farrier in common.

a) I don't have mahoosive amounts of spare time
b) There are only three liveries on my yard - and only four horses out of fourteen are fully shod
c) I'm not qualified (in education or experience) to know if someone else's horse has had good/poor looking shoeing undertaken

This thread is very helpful for someone like me...

I trim the frog with a very sharpe knife that way you can remove unwanted tags and peeling horn as the frog exfoliates. I like a symmetrical frog so i will trim it that way so the clefts are easily visible this will alow it to self clean and prevent areas of bacteria build up. Once properly trimmed and foot balanced it develops that healthy look you all long for.

Thanks for that... I wasn't sure why it was carved evenly when I had some vague idea that it 'wore down'...