Bringing into a contact

[Rachael42]

I have a green horse that will not come into a contact, he just fights with you. He holds his head up like a llama and refuses to work properly. He has had saddle, back, teeth etc checked so nothing wrong with him physically. JusT lack of training. Anything I can try to help him work correctly and into a contact?

 

[Cob Life]

Just something someone picked up with me the other day: are you over riding him and causing confusion?
I was having the same issue and the more he stuck his head up the more I over rode to get his head down, so he fought me. I loosened up and rode less and not only did I get him actually working properly we got a few nice leg yields and our first shoulder ins!

other than that lessons with a good instructor

 

[paddi22]

you need a good set of eyes on the ground to see what's going on. it could be a hundred different reasons. have you a good dressage teacher you could get a lesson with?

 

[LEC]

Its an incredibly tricky concept to explain as so many nuances. I spend weeks on a long rein sometimes just because the horse is not in front of the leg and needs to learn to go forwards. Only then can I start introducing contact and tend to do it out hacking as they are naturally a bit more forwards thinking. Its very much about pressure and release combined with an incredible discipline around it. I find the two things a lot of riders struggle with is the discipline, if I am sat on a horse I think about it all the time if learning how to take the contact and with the release.

 

[Mule]

Its an incredibly tricky concept to explain as so many nuances. I spend weeks on a long rein sometimes just because the horse is not in front of the leg and needs to learn to go forwards. Only then can I start introducing contact and tend to do it out hacking as they are naturally a bit more forwards thinking. Its very much about pressure and release combined with an incredible discipline around it. I find the two things a lot of riders struggle with is the discipline, if I am sat on a horse I think about it all the time if learning how to take the contact and with the release.

Discipline is my main problem as well as tending to hold my reins too long. I completely slacked off a while back and rode on a lose rein constantly. When I made the effort again, I completely lost my feel and timing. It took a good while to get it back as I've always been prone to washing line reins.

 

[LEC]

Discipline is my main problem as well as tending to hold my reins too long. I completely slacked off a while back and rode on a lose rein constantly. When I made the effort again, I completely lost my feel and timing. It took a good while to get it back as I've always been prone to washing line reins.

I think this is why its so nuanced as well - what is forwards? My idea of forwards is very forwards in trot and canter before I would be asking for contact. Once I have forwards I am probably adjusting the contact down the rein a lot as the horse goes between correct and incorrect. If its incorrect, pressure is added. If its correct then its released. I would probably be adjusting a lot when they are new to the idea. Then you add in the issues of outside rein and evenness in the contact. I probably think about contact and forwards off the leg every time I ride and ask myself - are they even in the rein? Are they holding themselves up? Is the contact just right? Are they correctly into the outside rein? Are they off the leg and into the contact? Could I do an upwards transition immediately and the horse will be correct off the leg and into the contact?

I can go on about contact all day long as its my 2021 aim to get right jumping. I am really guilty of not having enough especially Sjing. In Dressage I have a really clear idea of what I want which is a 5 or 6/10 in the reins. Basically the horse holding my hand. Sjing I don't think I ride with enough and then don't have them forwards enough into the contact. So I am going to play with it this year. I watched Pau Sjing yesterday and was left with no answer as every horse differed and it depended on the rider! Piggy likes more than Laura Collett for instance.

 

[Orangehorse]

Relaxation of the jaw!

You can do it on the ground, raise the bit in the horse's mouth and the instant he responds give to him.
This is a very, very brief and not complete description. It is the "French method" rather than the German method that most of us practice.

I did an introductory weekend with my horse and thought that if I ever got another I would go down this route (I won't get another horse now) IF I could find a local instructor. My horse never went better in those two days of instruction. The end result is the same, it is just a different road to travel.

 

[AUB]

Forget the head. What’s going on in the other end?

 

[ycbm]

It helps me a lot with my head waver to think of sending him out to the contact, not bringing him into the contact.

It's a simple change of words but it makes all the difference.

 

[jammymare]

Forget the head. What’s going on in the other end?

This! Don’t think of bringing the horse into the contact, you want him to be pushing through to the rein so that when you close the hand the frame lifts and the neck stays open. So many horses I see where the head is down but the back is hollow an the hind legs are in the next county. If he’s a green horse he probably doesn’t understand your rein aids yet, so it all needs to come from behind

 

[Red-1]

With a horse that has already built up resistance to people trying to make it happen, I wrote a reply back in 2016...

Once a horse has had a "pulling battle" there is some work to be done before he will be able to release.

I would start from the floor, picking up one rein to the side and waiting until the horse follows the contact to the side. Once the horse will follow the lead with a light contact and a soft feel then pick up both reins behind the bit, and take a contact, with a sensitive hand. As soon as the horse makes any kind of try to experiment with the feel then release. Usually this will start with him chewing.

If you continue then he will learn to soften to both reins simultaneously.

Then ridden, at halt, again use one rein to the side to teach the horse to follow the feel, without tension. Once he is soft

 

[dorsetladette]

This! Don’t think of bringing the horse into the contact, you want him to be pushing through to the rein so that when you close the hand the frame lifts and the neck stays open. So many horses I see where the head is down but the back is hollow an the hind legs are in the next county. If he’s a green horse he probably doesn’t understand your rein aids yet, so it all needs to come from behind

This - you need 'forward' first. Think about pushing him forwards into the bridle, but keeping the hands soft (think elastic reins) when he 'gets' it give him lots of praise.

 

[tristar]

to make any comment on what to do i would need to see the horse ridden,

the main thing i would be looking at is what is the horse doing with its whole body, the last thing i would look at is his head.

then i would look at how you are riding, the horse needs to be forward, straight and relaxed, if you aim for those things it will happen like magic, but it takes time, the horse needs to become capable of working with all its joints, that is what schooling is for

 

[paddi22]

yeah there so many factors - horses conformation, how the neck is set or how on the forehand it is, how much the horse is working through its back, tack and bitting, rider's balance, rider's hands, is the horse balanced, is it relaxed?
I've seen friends for years struggle with this and it only gets fixed with a good trainer who can teach the correct feel, timing and understands where the horse is at physically. the people who try to fix it themselves generally seem to have a horse that might look ok, but it's not coming through from behind - it's just learnt to fix it neck and is locked and hollow in its back, but they think it 'looks' like it's doing the right thing.

there's balances to get right between horse shape, rider skill and how the horse is moving. it's never a quick fix, it's understanding the process.

 

[Bernster]

Ooh, a very timely thread. I’ve recently got a loan horse and am working through similar issues. I know I need to be patient and it’s a big puzzle to work through gradually, but I also appreciate that it can seem like a tough or long drawn out process. Im following the advice that’s been posted on here and will tweak and test things to see how we go.

It’s very tempting to try to pull them into the contact but I know that’s not the right approach. But getting the right feel for how to use the reins and the contact in the right way is tricky (for me anyway) so I accept it’s likely to be a case of lots of lessons with a sympathetic instructor, ground work, poles, physio, saddle checks, suppling work etc. And trust that the right process will get The right results in time. I’m not good at being patient but I have good people around me to keep me on track and this is what I was expecting anyway.

 

[tristar]

if you get everything working, which takes time, the back will lift and blockages through the spine will cease the back will become soft and raised, you will feel like you are sitting on a cushion, because when the back is soft the legs of the horse feel like springs, the horses head will just hang on the end of the neck as it takes the contact, the mouth will feel tender

another result will be the horse will come of its forehand through the influence of rhythm from regularity of the hoofbeats from balance which can easily be adjusted from half halts if needed.

this is why schooling even at the most basic level that looks not very important is important as it moves on to lateral work it builds slowly the horses ability to do what i am aiming for

 

[Mule]

yeah there so many factors - horses conformation, how the neck is set or how on the forehand it is, how much the horse is working through its back, tack and bitting, rider's balance, rider's hands, is the horse balanced, is it relaxed?
I've seen friends for years struggle with this and it only gets fixed with a good trainer who can teach the correct feel, timing and understands where the horse is at physically. the people who try to fix it themselves generally seem to have a horse that might look ok, but it's not coming through from behind - it's just learnt to fix it neck and is locked and hollow in its back, but they think it 'looks' like it's doing the right thing.

there's balances to get right between horse shape, rider skill and how the horse is moving. it's never a quick fix, it's understanding the process.

The conformation part is interesting. My horse has a very long, low set neck and I'm forever been told to shorten my reins (he seems to sneak them out of my hands).
Whereas, recently, I was riding a horse with a very upright, shorter neck and for the first time in my life I was told to lengthen my reins. I nearly fell off in shock!

 

[milliepops]

The conformation part is interesting. My horse has a very long, low set neck and I'm forever been told to shorten my reins (he seems to sneak them out of my hands).
Whereas, recently, I was riding a horse with a very upright, shorter neck and for the first time in my life I was told to lengthen my reins. I nearly fell off in shock!

i think this is where the concept of providing a contact and asking the horse to go towards it is so valuable.
because then you "just" need to figure out where that should be for that individual, roughly, and then not fiddle or allow the horse to change it

obviously there are times when it's useful to vary the frame, but the contact still needs to be consistent even then IMO. if you can get used to the concept of getting the horse to meet you, rather than you seeking backwards to the horse then it's easier to deal with different types i think. but that takes guidance, practice and tbh learning from mistakes before it becomes easy to think about.

 

[Mule]

i think this is where the concept of providing a contact and asking the horse to go towards it is so valuable.
because then you "just" need to figure out where that should be for that individual, roughly, and then not fiddle or allow the horse to change it

obviously there are times when it's useful to vary the frame, but the contact still needs to be consistent even then IMO. if you can get used to the concept of getting the horse to meet you, rather than you seeking backwards to the horse then it's easier to deal with different types i think. but that takes guidance, practice and tbh learning from mistakes before it becomes easy to think about.

So should I pick a rein length in between long and short and use my legs to ride the horse up to it? Because when he comes round my reins get loose and then I have to shorten them and all the adjusting results in my reins becoming too long again (that and his long neck sneaking forward!)

 

[milliepops]

So should I pick a rein length in between long and short and use my legs to ride the horse up to it?

well, sort of it's rather oversimplified but in my opinion, that type of approach leads to a rider giving a steady and consistent (and therefore more inviting) contact, and then creating the way of going required in the horse to encourage the horse to come to the contact willingly. You sort of lead by example. (obv you may need help to identify where is appropriate to put that).
The alternative is often that the horse chooses where its head is and the rider fiddles with the reins to get the horse to change that. which can lead to contact issues (inconsistent, rude, or above or behind the bit for instance) and a lack of attention paid to the rest of the horse's body.

when people say forget about what the head is doing, i can 100% understand that because focusing too much on the front end can tend to make people ride from front to back. But I think it's often interpreted in a way that's like "don't take a contact and just ride more forward" which can result in a horse simply running on its forehand still not going into the contact! you have to give the horse something for it to go towards. a horse won't magically take a contact if the rider hasn't presented one on the other end of the reins.

 

[milliepops]

there are 2 million caveats around things shouldn't be fixed and contact should be elastic and that kind of thing. Health warning.

but I have helped a few fiddly riders or ones that can't seem to keep their reins the same length because the horse has taught them to let the reins slip through their fingers (this happens to me too!) and changing the way you approach it to be like "here's the contact, come and meet me" has really helped them over that hump, and then you are able to develop suppleness and elasticity and self carriage all that good stuff

 

[Mule]

there are 2 million caveats around things shouldn't be fixed and contact should be elastic and that kind of thing. Health warning.

but I have helped a few fiddly riders or ones that can't seem to keep their reins the same length because the horse has taught them to let the reins slip through their fingers (this happens to me too!) and changing the way you approach it to be like "here's the contact, come and meet me" has really helped them over that hump, and then you are able to develop suppleness and elasticity and self carriage all that good stuff

Thank you that sounds good

 

[Bernster]

when people say forget about what the head is doing, i can 100% understand that because focusing too much on the front end can tend to make people ride from front to back. But I think it's often interpreted in a way that's like "don't take a contact and just ride more forward" which can result in a horse simply running on its forehand still not going into the contact! you have to give the horse something for it to go towards. a horse won't magically take a contact if the rider hasn't presented one on the other end of the reins.

indeed. i find this bit tricky as it’s tempting to think this means no contact, loose reins etc but it’s not that. Incredibly difficult to explain in text and something I’m having to go back to learning about with the new horse!

 

[Mule]

Another problem with me is I have a habit of riding with loose reins when we hack in walk, which is a lot because the farrier has said not to trot on hard surfaces because of his dodgy hooves. I also like not having to concentrate and just relax when hacking.

So I concentrate on contact when we school but I went through a period of time where we only hacked, and I completely lost my feel/timing. I've done that before as well and had the same problem, so I must remember not to do it again. I wonder should I concentrate on contact out hacking too?

 

[milliepops]

Another problem with me is I have a habit of riding with loose reins when we hack in walk, which is a lot because the farrier has said not to trot on hard surfaces because of his dodgy hooves. I also like to relax out hacking.

So I concentrate on contact when we school but I went through a period of time where we only hacked, and I completely lost my feel/timing. I've done that before as well and had the same problem, so I must remember not to do it again. I wonder should I concentrate on contact out hacking too?

it might help you in the short term, in the same way that when you're trying to learn anything it helps to do as much as possible.
I hack on long or loose reins too, but because I spend hours each week riding on a dressagey type contact its second nature when I pick up the reins, what I need to do.
I think you can definitely alternate between the 2 but perhaps while you get the feel reinstalled it would help to do spells riding to the contact on your hacks

 

[Mule]

it might help you in the short term, in the same way that when you're trying to learn anything it helps to do as much as possible.
I hack on long or loose reins too, but because I spend hours each week riding on a dressagey type contact its second nature when I pick up the reins, what I need to do.
I think you can definitely alternate between the 2 but perhaps while you get the feel reinstalled it would help to do spells riding to the contact on your hacks

About the steady contact, does that mean I hold the reins completely still or do still give a squeeze on the reins?

 

[milliepops]

About the steady contact, does that mean I hold the reins completely still or do I still ask him to flex (give a squeeze) with the reins?

i think this depends on why /what you're doing and how much of it is conscious and this is why it's best to get some input on the ground on things like this.

other people will have a different view but I think if you can't tell when you're squeezing or you're not getting a noticeable response then try going cold turkey for a ride and see what happens. as you have said you have a habit of letting the reins slip through your fingers i think perhaps that might be partly because you're not always aware of what your hands are doing?

OTOH if you know when you're doing it and you get the response you want, then carry on.
but not if it's constant busy hands. does that make sense? it's so easy to get into a habit of - left a bit, right a bit and fiddling with the bit, and then you (not you specifically, i mean ONE) can end up with a horse that isn't properly in the contact, they've been fiddled off it and as paddi mentioned earlier, it looks right in the frame, but is wrong in the body.

to add, holding the reins still isn't meaning they are fixed, you need to move your hands/arms to follow the essential movement of the neck obviously it's sometimes hard to get the feel of steady, in a way that isn't *stiff*. but it's all a process and i think we all have to be prepared to see things as stepping stones and be OK with not being perfect immediately. sometimes you also have to improve yourself as a rider before you can improve the horse, so sometimes it's OK to pick things off one bit at at time (in this example, rider learns to keep hands steady - or use them deliberately sort of ignoring the horse, and then in a week's time uses that new ability to improve the horse's acceptance of the contact).

 

[Mule]

i think this depends on why /what you're doing and how much of it is conscious and this is why it's best to get some input on the ground on things like this.

other people will have a different view but I think if you can't tell when you're squeezing or you're not getting a noticeable response then try going cold turkey for a ride and see what happens. as you have said you have a habit of letting the reins slip through your fingers i think perhaps that might be partly because you're not always aware of what your hands are doing?

OTOH if you know when you're doing it and you get the response you want, then carry on.
but not if it's constant busy hands. does that make sense? it's so easy to get into a habit of - left a bit, right a bit and fiddling with the bit, and then you (not you specifically, i mean ONE) can end up with a horse that isn't properly in the contact, they've been fiddled off it and as paddi mentioned earlier, it looks right in the frame, but is wrong in the body.

to add, holding the reins still isn't meaning they are fixed, you need to move your hands/arms to follow the essential movement of the neck obviously it's sometimes hard to get the feel of steady, in a way that isn't *stiff*. but it's all a process and i think we all have to be prepared to see things as stepping stones and be OK with not being perfect immediately. sometimes you also have to improve yourself as a rider before you can improve the horse, so sometimes it's OK to pick things off one bit at at time (in this example, rider learns to keep hands steady - or use them deliberately sort of ignoring the horse, and then in a week's time uses that new ability to improve the horse's acceptance of the contact).

I rode for a while without squeezing the reins at all and once we do a ton of spiral circles he rounds his body nicely and and
reaches forward for the contact. It feels and looks much nicer than the other way but takes a good 15 minutes of circles and lateral work to get there. Before that happens he's well above the bit.

I was concerned that I was asking for too many small circles and it might not be good for his legs and hooves. Because of that I went back to the legs on and rein squeezing. With the rein squeezing and legs on he goes round straight away but I don't know which way is better. My reins also slip this way. Do you think I should do the spiral circles and spend 15 minutes for his body to respond or squeeze my reins and get there straight away?

Every dressage person I know just picks up the reins and the horse immediately goes on the bit ?‍ I'm there with a giraffe for 15 minutes unless I use my reins
The problem is that every instructor gives different explanations so I don't know what I should be doing. What way do you think would be best?

 

[paddi22]

I always get rescues and projects in to reschool and I always start teaching them contact on hacks.

I start with longish reins to let them lower their heads, relax and stretch forward and down, but I still have always have a very soft contact down the rein. I always think of it like holding hands with the horse, you are in a constant conversation but doing very little. If someone is holding your hand in walk, you want them to be moving with you, not pulling you or squeezing you too tight or doing too much with their fingers. I really only squeeze if I want to get their attention back or I feel like they are stiffening against me.

 

[milliepops]

Ok from what you've said, I think you need to try to combine both.
Legs on and ask him to come round and accept the contact from the off. Let's not start with a giraffe impression, let's begin in a working frame of mind. then try and maintain that without wiggling your fingers. that might mean you just ride 10m without wiggling to start with, and then remind him to accept the contact, and then see if you can do 15 metres. in that time, you should try to maintain an elastic feel on his mouth, and ask him to step towards the contact that you are trying to keep steady, you can use your circles and spirals to help (and shoulder in etc!). if he giraffes or is rude, a quick reminder, and then back to steady. hopefully he will come to understand that it's comfortable to have a steady contact, and as you continue to supple and work his body, he will find it easier to stay round and in the contact consistently.

so you keep in mind your goal, which is to be able to ride with a steady contact with the horse understanding and able to accept your aids from leg to hand, and you work towards it. does that make sense? it's very difficult when different instructors tell you different things. but that's what I would be aiming for, and that's what I do with mine when they have to learn for the first time.