Bringing into a contact

[Cob Life]

sounds great, mule. i think it's quite common that people try to have the horse too light in the hand at the start. you need to develop a kind of positive pull from the horse and sometimes that can be heavier, sometimes lighter. generally they become lighter as they get more established and can work in self carriage. i think to aim for lightness at the start, is where it can go wrong, because you really need *security* first and individual horses can take a firmer hold than others.

This ^

I get a lot of comments saying Blue looks heavy in the hand where actually I almost want him that way as he prefers to run around with his head in the air like a llama (hence his nickname of Llama) and no contact, so I’d rather that he’s stretching down into the contact, as once he’s happy accepting and working into the contact then I can work on lightness

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

It's complicated, I have a feeling I could spend my whole life trying to get it right.

I am sure that is true of almost all riders but some will not recognise that they are the main problem, not the horse, whereas usually the horse is reacting to the rider and doing what has been asked for but what is being asked is not what the rider intended.

 

[Mule]

When the beast gets heavy in my hand, when it feels like he's leaning, I do half halt to get him to hold himself up/ hold his own weight. He becomes lighter in the hand/ rein then. Is that the right thing to do?

 

[Cob Life]

When the beast gets heavy in my hand, when it feels like he's leaning, I do half halt to get him to hold himself, is that the right thing to do?

Yes, you want him to be carrying himself, what’s his reaction to the half halt?

With blue he’s been yanked with previous riders so any taking of the contact at the moment is good for him

 

[Mule]

Yes, you want him to be carrying himself, what’s his reaction to the half halt?

With blue he’s been yanked with previous riders so any taking of the contact at the moment is good for him

He does carry his own weight when I half halt. He stops leaning on me. There's no way I'm going to carry that big oaf around the place

 

[Cob Life]

He does carry his own weight when I half halt. He stops leaning on me.

If the half halt is getting the reaction you’re looking for that’s great!

 

[Mule]

I will try to think of him taking the contact I offer rather than getting him on the bit. I think that will help with keeping my hands quieter/ steadier. Like he has to go to it rather than me bringing him to it.

 

[oldie48]

I am sure that is true of almost all riders but some will not recognise that they are the main problem, not the horse, whereas usually the horse is reacting to the rider and doing what has been asked for but what is being asked is not what the rider intended.

This is true providing the horse knows what is being asked of them when asked correctly and has the strength and musculature to do it. eg a horse that is built "downhill" will find it harder to come off the forehand than one which is built "uphill", doesn't mean with correct training you can't get there but the training will be slightly different.

 

[tristar]

i agree with pearlsasinger, the skill involved is so also so subtle, the way you sit, how your aids are used, a horse is born knowing how to carry itself, some riders are born knowing how to ride, what passes between horse and rider together is like learning is a new language for most, when horse and rider talk to each other in the same language its easier

 

[Mule]

This is true providing the horse knows what is being asked of them when asked correctly and has the strength and musculature to do it. eg a horse that is built "downhill" will find it harder to come off the forehand than one which is built "uphill", doesn't mean with correct training you can't get there but the training will be slightly different.

I agree. When I got the beast he was very heavy on the forehand because he had never been taught to carry himself. His previous owner had evented him so had done some dressage but he had held him in a frame using strength.

It took a lot of effort to get him to carry himself and it was difficult for him because he didnt have the muscles to do it.I couldn't have got him to carry himself by just focusing on improving myself.

 

[milliepops]

I agree. When I got the beast he was very heavy on the forehand because he had never been taught to carry himself. His previous owner had evented him so had done some dressage but he had held him in a frame using strength.

It took a lot of effort to get him to carry himself and it was difficult for him but he is a different horse now. I couldn't have got to the point he's at now by just focusing on improving myself.

i think a lot of us find ourselves in the position where we're not starting with a blank canvas. Having to help a horse unlearn stuff and re-learn a new way is IMO a different question to having a young uneducated horse that you can show it the correct way from the start.

 

[Mule]

i think a lot of us find ourselves in the position where we're not starting with a blank canvas. Having to help a horse unlearn stuff and re-learn a new way is IMO a different question to having a young uneducated horse that you can show it the correct way from the start.

Absolutely and it will be great for you having Hera because she will be a blank slate. How is she these days?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I agree. When I got the beast he was very heavy on the forehand because he had never been taught to carry himself. His previous owner had evented him so had done some dressage but he had held him in a frame using strength.

It took a lot of effort to get him to carry himself and it was difficult for him because he didnt have the muscles to do it.I couldn't have got him to carry himself by just focusing on improving myself.

My experience of getting horses off the forehand (and I have plenty of it) is to *not* hold them up. IME if you allow them to lean on your hands they will thank you for the opportunity and take it. I find that the best way to start getting them off the forehand is to let go of the mouth, really ride from your seat and legs, pushing the horse on.
And whilst I agree that it is much easier to ride a well-schooled horse correctly, if you need to teach your horse the correct response to aids, your aids have to be correct, remembering that you are giving aids with every part of your body, so you absolutely must be riding correctly. If the horse isn't getting it, it's more likely to be the fault of the rider than the fault of the horse.
And before anybody asks, no, I am not a perfect rider by any means but I recognise that faults in communication are most likely to come from me not the horse and I am excellent 'eyes on the ground' when rider/horse combinations are struggling.

 

[Mule]

My experience of getting horses off the forehand (and I have plenty of it) is to *not* hold them up. IME if you allow them to lean on your hands they will thank you for the opportunity and take it. I find that the best way to start getting them off the forehand is to let go of the mouth, really ride from your seat and legs, pushing the horse on.
And whilst I agree that it is much easier to ride a well-schooled horse correctly, if you need to teach your horse the correct response to aids, your aids have to be correct, remembering that you are giving aids with every part of your body, so you absolutely must be riding correctly. If the horse isn't getting it, it's more likely to be the fault of the rider than the fault of the horse.
And before anybody asks, no, I am not a perfect rider by any means but I recognise that faults in communication are most likely to come from me not the horse and I am excellent 'eyes on the ground' when rider/horse combinations are struggling.

It was his previous rider that held him up, I had to get him to hold himself up. As you said, to get him to stop leaning on my hands. It was interesting because once he got the strength to do that he became a much better showjumper as well.

 

[milliepops]

i agree, i don't think it can ever be the fault of the horse, since the horse didn't sign up for this game and doesn't know what the arbitrary concept of "right" is anyway
therefore by definition it's always the rider that has to change things.

I just think that sitting pretty and hoping that by having perfect technique your horse is going to suddenly understand the question, and stop doing whatever the years of previous riders or trainers have taught in terms of responses or way of going is a bit over optimistic.

and depending on what the horse's prior (mis) understanding might be, letting go of the contact and pushing forward might just end up with the horse more on the forehand, out of balance and going too fast and flat. it might be the right thing in some instances but not always IMO. it's rare that there's one thing that works for every horse.

Not many horses will experiment with their own balance and randomly decide to engage more behind and stop using their front legs to hold them up - that's harder work for them so why would they. only *we* think it's "better" like that. the horse thinks it's better to trundle along on the forehand, take your average dobbin - that's how he is built, so it's natural. therefore you need to show him what you want clearly in order for him to cotton on.

In addition, i think that pushing forward to nothing just means you waste the energy you create. if you want to teach the horse about the contact then you still need to have one. JMHO

 

[Mule]

i agree, i don't think it can ever be the fault of the horse, since the horse didn't sign up for this game and doesn't know what the arbitrary concept of "right" is anyway
therefore by definition it's always the rider that has to change things.

I just think that sitting pretty and hoping that by having perfect technique your horse is going to suddenly understand the question, and stop doing whatever the years of previous riders or trainers have taught in terms of responses or way of going is a bit over optimistic.

and depending on what the horse's prior (mis) understanding might be, letting go of the contact and pushing forward might just end up with the horse more on the forehand, out of balance and going too fast and flat. it might be the right thing in some instances but not always IMO. it's rare that there's one thing that works for every horse.

Not many horses will experiment with their own balance and randomly decide to engage more behind and stop using their front legs to hold them up - that's harder work for them so why would they. only *we* think it's "better" like that. the horse thinks it's better to trundle along on the forehand, take your average dobbin - that's how he is built, so it's natural. therefore you need to show him what you want clearly in order for him to cotton on.

In addition, i think that pushing forward to nothing just means you waste the energy you create. if you want to teach the horse about the contact then you still need to have one. JMHO

Yeah, tbh I had to use a good fair bit of hand to teach him to stop leaning. It was sorta like, use the hand then release, then use it again when he leaned. I had to stop him inverting as well because all my half halts and transitions weren't doing anything when his nose was pointing skywards
I'm sure it wasn't classical but it did the job.

 

[milliepops]

Yeah, tbh I had to use a good fair bit of hand to teach him to stop leaning. It was sorta like, use the hand then release, then use it again when he leaned. I had to stop him inverting as well because all my half halts and transitions weren't doing anything when his nose was pointing skywards
I'm sure it wasn't classical but it did the job.

i don't think there's anything wrong with that with a leaner, the release is quite an important bit because it breaks the cycle, but if you want them to learn how to take the contact politely then you've got to take it up again and when they invert that much it makes it almost impossible to do anything apart from be a passenger.

(thanks, I'm really excited about being responsible for 100% of Hera's education and not wondering... what has happened to you to make you like this?! it'll all be my mistakes )

 

[Mule]

i don't think there's anything wrong with that with a leaner, the release is quite an important bit because it breaks the cycle, but if you want them to learn how to take the contact politely then you've got to take it up again and when they invert that much it makes it almost impossible to do anything apart from be a passenger.

(thanks, I'm really excited about being responsible for 100% of Hera's education and not wondering... what has happened to you to make you like this?! it'll all be my mistakes )

It is exciting What stallion did you use?

 

[tristar]

My experience of getting horses off the forehand (and I have plenty of it) is to *not* hold them up. IME if you allow them to lean on your hands they will thank you for the opportunity and take it. I find that the best way to start getting them off the forehand is to let go of the mouth, really ride from your seat and legs, pushing the horse on.
And whilst I agree that it is much easier to ride a well-schooled horse correctly, if you need to teach your horse the correct response to aids, your aids have to be correct, remembering that you are giving aids with every part of your body, so you absolutely must be riding correctly. If the horse isn't getting it, it's more likely to be the fault of the rider than the fault of the horse.
And before anybody asks, no, I am not a perfect rider by any means but I recognise that faults in communication are most likely to come from me not the horse and I am excellent 'eyes on the ground' when rider/horse combinations are struggling.

that`s exactly what i do

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

that`s exactly what i do

I don't know where you are but perhaps we are both lucky in that we have hills to ride up and down, which does help to get horses off the forehand, using our method.
I also think that it is difficult for any of us to explain exactly what we do because we make so many minor adjustments that we are barely conscious of, as we ride. I am quite sure that neither of us just allows the horse to go along faster and faster on the forehand, or we wouldn't have bothered to post on this thread.

 

[tristar]

I don't know where you are but perhaps we are both lucky in that we have hills to ride up and down, which does help to get horses off the forehand, using our method.

no hills here, will be starting on a lightweight cob soon, never done a cob before, he is very forward and looks quite balanced when loose, be interesting see how different he is, i`m sure he will be different, new experience learning curve coming at me!

was wondering about horses lunged in short side reins, when young, as in dressage yards, and how that affects how they feel when on the bit, are they really on the bit or not? what do you think

 

[Regandal]

It’s only been a couple of weeks since I managed to crack the contact with my little ISH. I am guilty of washing line reins, and it took a fair bit of ‘shorten the reins and give with your hands’! My instructor is quite strict about getting a good level of forward energy going before asking him, I think it also helps that I’m a lot stronger in my core. Amazing feeling!

 

[Mule]

It’s only been a couple of weeks since I managed to crack the contact with my little ISH. I am guilty of washing line reins, and it took a fair bit of ‘shorten the reins and give with your hands’! My instructor is quite strict about getting a good level of forward energy going before asking him, I think it also helps that I’m a lot stronger in my core. Amazing feeling!

It makes them so much more comfortable to ride doesn't it? Everything becomes easier. Sitting on them when they have that hollow in their back feels horrible in comparison.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

no hills here, will be starting on a lightweight cob soon, never done a cob before, he is very forward and looks quite balanced when loose, be interesting see how different he is, i`m sure he will be different, new experience learning curve coming at me!

was wondering about horses lunged in short side reins, when young, as in dressage yards, and how that affects how they feel when on the bit, are they really on the bit or not? what do you think

I simply do not like working from the front backwards and as the side reins are obviously lower than a rider's hands, I am not convinced that lunging in side reins achieves what it is meant to. I wouldn't lunge a youngster anyway. Long-rein yes, lunge no. I do like in-hand work and loose schooling, with the 'handler' in close proximity to the horse, not an opportunity for the horse to go racketing round an arena on its own.

 

[tristar]

i never use side reins, but its whether the horse who is lunged in them when unschooled can ever be truly on bit after, someone who was looking to buy a youngster said,`` but of course you have to lunge them in side reins for 12 months,`` not the loose range ones but with a fixed head carriage, and why do dressage people think they have to do this if they are doing dressage anyway with the horse!

i do loose lunge, a lot, usually over raised poles, when trained they are very good at using the riding surface and going large ,anything different and interesting, i like the idea of them working in one balance, of their own, then getting on and being riding in another balance.

i have a horse that lives near a mountain, on another property ,quite a high one, perhaps i might try hill work with him later

 

[Cob Life]

My experience of getting horses off the forehand (and I have plenty of it) is to *not* hold them up. IME if you allow them to lean on your hands they will thank you for the opportunity and take it. I find that the best way to start getting them off the forehand is to let go of the mouth, really ride from your seat and legs, pushing the horse on.
And whilst I agree that it is much easier to ride a well-schooled horse correctly, if you need to teach your horse the correct response to aids, your aids have to be correct, remembering that you are giving aids with every part of your body, so you absolutely must be riding correctly. If the horse isn't getting it, it's more likely to be the fault of the rider than the fault of the horse.
And before anybody asks, no, I am not a perfect rider by any means but I recognise that faults in communication are most likely to come from me not the horse and I am excellent 'eyes on the ground' when rider/horse combinations are struggling.

I know with blue he’d have his nose on the floor tripping over his feet. he’s a very heavy irish cob though.

the WBx I have to do the same as you, loose rein getting her to stretch down more but she is naturally built more up hill

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I know with blue he’d have his nose on the floor tripping over his feet. he’s a very heavy irish cob though.

the WBx I have to do the same as you, loose rein getting her to stretch down more but she is naturally built more up hill

I have found that dropping the contact suddenly reminds horses that do what Blue does not to rely on me to hold them up. It's like an inverse half-halt.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

i never use side reins, but its whether the horse who is lunged in them when unschooled can ever be truly on bit after, someone who was looking to buy a youngster said,`` but of course you have to lunge them in side reins for 12 months,`` not the loose range ones but with a fixed head carriage, and why do dressage people think they have to do this if they are doing dressage anyway with the horse!

i do loose lunge, a lot, usually over raised poles, when trained they are very good at using the riding surface and going large ,anything different and interesting, i like the idea of them working in one balance, of their own, then getting on and being riding in another balance.

i have a horse that lives near a mountain, on another property ,quite a high one, perhaps i might try hill work with him later

I wouldn't be surprised if such youngsters end up dead to the contact/hard mouthed. They will have learned to ignore contact.

 

[Wishfilly]

well, sort of it's rather oversimplified but in my opinion, that type of approach leads to a rider giving a steady and consistent (and therefore more inviting) contact, and then creating the way of going required in the horse to encourage the horse to come to the contact willingly. You sort of lead by example. (obv you may need help to identify where is appropriate to put that).
The alternative is often that the horse chooses where its head is and the rider fiddles with the reins to get the horse to change that. which can lead to contact issues (inconsistent, rude, or above or behind the bit for instance) and a lack of attention paid to the rest of the horse's body.

when people say forget about what the head is doing, i can 100% understand that because focusing too much on the front end can tend to make people ride from front to back. But I think it's often interpreted in a way that's like "don't take a contact and just ride more forward" which can result in a horse simply running on its forehand still not going into the contact! you have to give the horse something for it to go towards. a horse won't magically take a contact if the rider hasn't presented one on the other end of the reins.

Just wanted to say thank you for this and your subsequent posts on this thread! I rode my new boy in the school today and tried this method. We have forwards, but it is a very tense and rushed sort of forwards, and being really consistent with my contact helped a lot, and only squeezing or half halting to regain his attention/bend etc really seemed to work and we got some really nice moments of softness/relaxed work, beginning to work towards a proper contact.

Sending him forwards more wouldn't help, as he would just rush more and become more unbalanced, but sending him forward into a consistent hand seemed to work really well!

(And yes, before anyone says, I know the key is going to be getting some lessons with a decent instructor, but I'm struggling to find a good one locally and with the weather being appalling and only having an outdoor school, it's nice to be able to ride and achieve something when the sun is out!).

 

[Mule]

Just wanted to say thank you for this and your subsequent posts on this thread! I rode my new boy in the school today and tried this method. We have forwards, but it is a very tense and rushed sort of forwards, and being really consistent with my contact helped a lot, and only squeezing or half halting to regain his attention/bend etc really seemed to work and we got some really nice moments of softness/relaxed work, beginning to work towards a proper contact.

Sending him forwards more wouldn't help, as he would just rush more and become more unbalanced, but sending him forward into a consistent hand seemed to work really well!

(And yes, before anyone says, I know the key is going to be getting some lessons with a decent instructor, but I'm struggling to find a good one locally and with the weather being appalling and only having an outdoor school, it's nice to be able to ride and achieve something when the sun is out!).

I had planned to practice it today too but I fell asleep on the couch instead