British Eventing and British Breeding

spacefaer said:
It's really hard to find out anything about a horse's breeding in the UK

If I want to know an Irish horse's pedigree, I look on the IHR website (formerly CapellOir). If I want to know its competition results, I look on the relevant discipline's website. If I want to know the results of a particular stallion's grading, I look it up. Ditto progeny or siblings.

And all this information is available for free.

If you want to know anything about a UK horse - there's virtually nothing.

That's one of the reasons why people go abroad, whether to Ireland or Europe - they have a much better idea of what they are buying.

I buy Irish bred horses - I have only bought one English bred horse in the last 8 years - because I know what I'm buying, in terms of bloodlines, performance and temperament.

The UK breeders have a massive problem in trying to compete with that.
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Yep, completely agree - it's all the little things about the culture of sports horse breeding in Ireland that makes them the go to still. UK breeding isn't treated like an industry in the same way.

I'm the opposite to you spacefaer, I used to buy Irish but for years now have only bought British bred, usually from within 60 miles of where I live (as I buy direct from breeders generally). And I do so because they are comparatively cheap, and the huge range of interesting bloodlines that are used in this country mean that you purchase just about anything you want in terms of temperament and build. But my god do I have to search and scrat around to find them
 
Springs said:
I don't think anyone has recommended or planned that grassroots riders should fund anything on British Breeding
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I did very briefly discuss with two members of the board who seem keen to engage with breeders to link everything together.
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But this will cost money, won't it? How is BE to pay for it if not by raising it from the membership?


This thread has raised is a very interesting discussion, though.
 
cundlegreen said:
How many of you breeders passport your horses with the SHB(GB)? I do all of mine because they are welsh partbreds, and I feel this is the obvious choice of passporting authority. However, considering their criteria is quite high for stallion grading( I have seen at least one proven eventer failed by them), I was astonished to find little or no information about a graded stallions progeny performance. Surely something that should be addressed to encourage us to use british based stallions. Here is the email I sent them yesterday after trawling for information brought this up....

" I have just been searching your website for the progeny results for Catherston Liberator. As an event horse producer, owner and breeder, I'm keen to see event results for stallions. However, both Xavier Faere and trevarth to name but two, are both advanced eventers, with the first horse having come 3rd at badminton last year!
How come that these results are not on your website, considering that I, and a lot of breeders like me, use your passporting service, and would expect you to highlight your graded stallions. I am somewhat shocked, especially as I have a yearling colt, who had most of his results displayed on your website, albeit only for showing in hand.
It may well be that Liberator, and other stallions like him are completely under the radar due to lack of information. Surely if we are trying to promote British bred stallions and their progeny, this is a very important failing?"
Thoughts please?
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Cundlegreen you are spot on.
I did register my foal with SHB(GB) and his dam is graded with them but I have to say this stud book and their whole infrastructure needs a big overhaul.
Less emphasis on fat show hunters and more on sports performance (dare I say it!!)
 
sallyf said:
There are many of us that breed specifically for eventing using proven mares and stallions but choose not to take our stock to the Futurity.
I have 4 foals for sale and a lot of interest in them (only advertised a week) but I don't have any interest in taking my youngsters to the futurity where there trots wont look flashy enough against foals that are by dressage stallions and probably wont jump later on.
I have a 4 year old here who has been quietly backed showing a lot of potential but now home for a holiday before going back to be competed as a 5 year old.
I'm not particularly interested in young horses classes either although have bred one that has been selected for the world young horse championships in Le Lion (sadly not going because of a virus).
He was purchased from us as a foal and never did the Futurity and only ever did one BYEH at 5 for experience
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In Hanoverian all mares are looses jumping in their grading. i bred a dressage horse that had 56 points BE as a 7 year old.
 
Must agree... Dabdab especially. On the continenet and Ireland there seems to be more of a plan, studbook system and its more of an industry while over here (myself included) we rely on more of a hobby breeder approach, with no clear long term plan of what we want to produce. I don't think its just eventings problem, breeding in Britain in a whole. The really successful breeders (thinking mostly dressage studs here) have a very european approach.
I am certainly no expert comapred to you lot (have one mare and have bred 2 foals for me to keep!) However, and please argue and correct me where I am wrong, but what I think we need is...
- Clear studbooks, maybe split in categories for each sport
- Grading system for stallions and mares, obviously there could be cross over studs books if a stallion/ mare would be suitable for both show jumping and eventing etc.
- A clear long term plan of what we need to breed, what we need to improve on what we have and what make British horses more deseriable than continently ones, hopefully creating a proper export market where people would buy from us to take back tp wurope. Yes we need to keep good horses here etc, but if British horses were more desriable across EU and Ire then breeders would find it easier to sell and make more money making the industry sustainable?
Who on earth would pay and implement this.... ummmm I think thats a problem!
 
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dominobrown said:
Must agree... Dabdab especially. On the continenet and Ireland there seems to be more of a plan, studbook system and its more of an industry while over here (myself included) we rely on more of a hobby breeder approach, with no clear long term plan of what we want to produce. I don't think its just eventings problem, breeding in Britain in a whole. The really successful breeders (thinking mostly dressage studs here) have a very european approach.
I am certainly no expert comapred to you lot (have one mare and have bred 2 foals for me to keep!) However, and please argue and correct me where I am wrong, but what I think we need is...
- Clear studbooks, maybe split in categories for each sport
- Grading system for stallions and mares, obviously there could be cross over studs books if a stallion/ mare would be suitable for both show jumping and eventing etc.
- A clear long term plan of what we need to breed, what we need to improve on what we have and what make British horses more deseriable than continently ones, hopefully creating a proper export market where people would buy from us to take back tp wurope. Yes we need to keep good horses here etc, but if British horses were more desriable across EU and Ire then breeders would find it easier to sell and make more money making the industry sustainable?
Who on earth would pay and implement this.... ummmm I think thats a problem!
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I would suggest the studbooks contribute. Its in there interest too, if we create more demand by having a better product, they will then get more revenue. Look at the KWPN system, theres a whole host of ways to create revenue, member access etc etc. They provide a much better service than what ive seen of the SHB(GB) and AES. Now, I'm not saying we copy that system, but there are some good ideas we could use.
 
Yes I agree. I have used AES as the stallion was lic3nced with them. My mare is Weatherbys reg TB, the stallion she is foal to now is KWPN so unsure who to register foal with. Bit disappointed they didn't put all the mares breeding in the foals passport, its not hard to find and they left her 'french' tb breeding blank? (Her dam's sire line)
 
spacefaer said:
It's really hard to find out anything about a horse's breeding in the UK

If I want to know an Irish horse's pedigree, I look on the IHR website (formerly CapellOir). If I want to know its competition results, I look on the relevant discipline's website. If I want to know the results of a particular stallion's grading, I look it up. Ditto progeny or siblings.

And all this information is available for free.

If you want to know anything about a UK horse - there's virtually nothing.

That's one of the reasons why people go abroad, whether to Ireland or Europe - they have a much better idea of what they are buying.

I buy Irish bred horses - I have only bought one English bred horse in the last 8 years - because I know what I'm buying, in terms of bloodlines, performance and temperament.

The UK breeders have a massive problem in trying to compete with that.
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I agree, I also buy irish horses, and they are so much cheaper even with vetting and transport, than an equivalent one over here. Much cheaper than breeding my own, and waiting 4 years for any return, although I have earned a lot of prize money this year from showing my yearling. Much more lucrative than winning eventing!
 
ihatework said:
Cundlegreen you are spot on.
I did register my foal with SHB(GB) and his dam is graded with them but I have to say this stud book and their whole infrastructure needs a big overhaul.
Less emphasis on fat show hunters and more on sports performance (dare I say it!!)
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Agree totally! For me, showing is a means to an end. It gives the babies some exposure to big occasions long before they get under saddle. That's when you really know what you've got.
 
dominobrown said:
Must agree... Dabdab especially. On the continenet and Ireland there seems to be more of a plan, studbook system and its more of an industry while over here (myself included) we rely on more of a hobby breeder approach, with no clear long term plan of what we want to produce. I don't think its just eventings problem, breeding in Britain in a whole. The really successful breeders (thinking mostly dressage studs here) have a very european approach.
I am certainly no expert comapred to you lot (have one mare and have bred 2 foals for me to keep!) However, and please argue and correct me where I am wrong, but what I think we need is...
- Clear studbooks, maybe split in categories for each sport
- Grading system for stallions and mares, obviously there could be cross over studs books if a stallion/ mare would be suitable for both show jumping and eventing etc.
- A clear long term plan of what we need to breed, what we need to improve on what we have and what make British horses more deseriable than continently ones, hopefully creating a proper export market where people would buy from us to take back tp wurope. Yes we need to keep good horses here etc, but if British horses were more desriable across EU and Ire then breeders would find it easier to sell and make more money making the industry sustainable?
Who on earth would pay and implement this.... ummmm I think thats a problem!
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In the early 1990's I was involved with the Warmblood classes at the Royal Show and in the first year RASE appointed a Hunter Judge who clearly did not understand the principles of warmblood judging in the following year I helped RASE to appoint a Judges from Germany and the following year from Holland. As the Dutch judge was about to present his final lineup I went and fetched a radio mike so the spectators could hear his evaluation as he finished the winner the senior Judge of the young horse classes rushed into the arena and took the mike away and said " we do not do that sort of thing here" with that the Dutch judge walked over to the spectators and continued his comments,as he turned away the crowd started to clap.
Many years ago at an auction in the Netherlands a dealer bought 6 horses and as he walked back to his lorry he threw the passports in the bin,Mark asked him why he did that he said he could not sell warmbloods in Ireland but could sell Irish horses of no known breeding. As an example Red Baron an Irish horse of no known breeding was registered with the FEI and when he competed in England the breeder recognised him as Miester a branded British Hanoverian she sold to Ireland. Th
 
sywell said:
In the early 1990's I was involved with the Warmblood classes at the Royal Show and in the first year RASE appointed a Hunter Judge who clearly did not understand the principles of warmblood judging in the following year I helped RASE to appoint a Judges from Germany and the following year from Holland. As the Dutch judge was about to present his final lineup I went and fetched a radio mike so the spectators could hear his evaluation as he finished the winner the senior Judge of the young horse classes rushed into the arena and took the mike away and said " we do not do that sort of thing here" with that the Dutch judge walked over to the spectators and continued his comments,as he turned away the crowd started to clap.
Many years ago at an auction in the Netherlands a dealer bought 6 horses and as he walked back to his lorry he threw the passports in the bin,Mark asked him why he did that he said he could not sell warmbloods in Ireland but could sell Irish horses of no known breeding. As an example Red Baron an Irish horse of no known breeding was registered with the FEI and when he competed in England the breeder recognised him as Miester a branded British Hanoverian she sold to Ireland. Th
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That sounds very sad, and hate to say it very British. Refusal to move with the times, or for people to accept what the changing sport needs. I think people are better now, but we are perfectably capable of breeding horses better than anywhere else. Its only when we are being beaten by foreign horses that we accept we need to sort things out and old ways are not the way forward.

What is your opinion on my suggestions sywell? You have obviously been involved with a long time (when I was still messing around in a nursery!!) So would value your experience and knowledge.
 
dominobrown said:
Must agree... Dabdab especially. On the continenet and Ireland there seems to be more of a plan, studbook system and its more of an industry while over here (myself included) we rely on more of a hobby breeder approach, with no clear long term plan of what we want to produce. I don't think its just eventings problem, breeding in Britain in a whole. The really successful breeders (thinking mostly dressage studs here) have a very european approach.
I am certainly no expert comapred to you lot (have one mare and have bred 2 foals for me to keep!) However, and please argue and correct me where I am wrong, but what I think we need is...
- Clear studbooks, maybe split in categories for each sport
- Grading system for stallions and mares, obviously there could be cross over studs books if a stallion/ mare would be suitable for both show jumping and eventing etc.
- A clear long term plan of what we need to breed, what we need to improve on what we have and what make British horses more deseriable than continently ones, hopefully creating a proper export market where people would buy from us to take back tp wurope. Yes we need to keep good horses here etc, but if British horses were more desriable across EU and Ire then breeders would find it easier to sell and make more money making the industry sustainable?
Who on earth would pay and implement this.... ummmm I think thats a problem!
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See I am not sure of your assumption that dressage breeding in the UK is up there and superior to Event breeding or indeed jumping in general. Quite often those that are more in your face (for want of a better expression ) are having to advertise and push their stud more.I started out 35yrs ago with one foundation mare who on the face of it was no champion,but she bred cracking foals to any stallion , Over the last 15yrs I have not had to advertise any of my produce with at least 2 in ireland ,several in the states and they are dotted around all over. Also quite a bit of British breeding does go to the continent by way of mares especially TBs.
However I dont see that BE have any particular reason to support British breeding ,why should they?
 
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I think that we went wrong when the BHS split from the disciplines and did not have the ability to give them more financial freedom but retain a representative overall body. I have a limited knowledge of the German system but the FN with the agreement of its studbook structure sets the policy and guidelines on policy and and has Government representation that implements that policy. DEFRA has in the past wanted to have a single point of contact with the Equine Industry but has been frustrated by the many strong conflicting voices. It is a nonsense that DEFRA agree to EU262(passport regs) to come in to law on 1/1/2016 and the new database by July 2016 and as yet neither has happened as we have no SI there can be no legal enforcement but the DEFRA Ministers say we have to abide by EU262 from 1/1/2016(in writing). Until we have a proper unified structure in the Industry and all bodies have equal representation and a single voice we will continue to be disregarded by Government. As an example at a meeting called by DEFRA the CEO of a body claiming to representative of the Equine Industry was part of the DEFRA panel and when she started to speak a studbook representative said "wait a minute who are you as I have never heard of you".
 
popsdosh said:
See I am not sure of your assumption that dressage breeding in the UK is up there and superior to Event breeding or indeed jumping in general. Quite often those that are more in your face (for want of a better expression ) are having to advertise and push their stud more.I started out 35yrs ago with one foundation mare who on the face of it was no champion,but she bred cracking foals to any stallion , Over the last 15yrs I have not had to advertise any of my produce with at least 2 in ireland ,several in the states and they are dotted around all over. Also quite a bit of British breeding does go to the continent by way of mares especially TBs.
However I dont see that BE have any particular reason to support British breeding ,why should they?
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But why shouldn't BE support British Breeding?

The data for the 5yo young horse championships in the U.K. Was 19% British Bred, the same class in France was over 90%

I also struggle with sending British riders on foreign Bred horses to Le Lion.... As this is a class for young horses where the recognition goes to the breeder and stud book of registration. Or am I wrong?
 
Springs said:
But why shouldn't BE support British Breeding?
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Isn't the question 'why should they'? Why should BE members pay higher fees to support British breeders? I genuinely do not understand. When I was competing BE, I did it on a variety of British and Irish bred horses, mostly British. As an ordinary rider competing 90/100/novice there was no shortage of horses. And it was expensive enough without paying an additional amount to support British breeders of horses at the top of the market.

If you believe support can be provided at no cost, can you explain exactly what support you are looking for?
 
Springs said:
But why shouldn't BE support British Breeding?

The data for the 5yo young horse championships in the U.K. Was 19% British Bred, the same class in France was over 90%

I also struggle with sending British riders on foreign Bred horses to Le Lion.... As this is a class for young horses where the recognition goes to the breeder and stud book of registration. Or am I wrong?
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You seem very hung up on young horse classes ,for what reason the last thing I want as a breeder is my young horses being pushed just that bit to far and im afraid you are tempted to if you qualify. They actually tell you nothing. Go to any top rider and see if they are keen to buy a 5yo thats done a lot ! I suspect not.
Promoting British breeding is more within the realms of the BEF and they have tried with the Futurity and the equine pathway which to some degree was designed to keep the best in the system without over competing.
BE have no interest or need to be involved in British breeding they are a competition organisation and where the horse comes from is of no consequence.
As a breeder I am not sure what BE can do for me ,surely if the horses you breed are good enough thats what will sell them ,or are you hoping that if there was some sort of competition just for British breds. Im sorry I want to rate my horses against all others not just British bred ones.Perhaps the next request will be competitions for those bred by one stud or such and such stallion.
Competitors at BE should feel free to buy their horses wherever its up to the breeders to up their game and make them desirable to purchase.
 
popsdosh said:
You seem very hung up on young horse classes ,for what reason the last thing I want as a breeder is my young horses being pushed just that bit to far and im afraid you are tempted to if you qualify. They actually tell you nothing. Go to any top rider and see if they are keen to buy a 5yo thats done a lot ! I suspect not.
Promoting British breeding is more within the realms of the BEF and they have tried with the Futurity and the equine pathway which to some degree was designed to keep the best in the system without over competing.
BE have no interest or need to be involved in British breeding they are a competition organisation and where the horse comes from is of no consequence.
As a breeder I am not sure what BE can do for me ,surely if the horses you breed are good enough thats what will sell them ,or are you hoping that if there was some sort of competition just for British breds. Im sorry I want to rate my horses against all others not just British bred ones.Perhaps the next request will be competitions for those bred by one stud or such and such stallion.
Competitors at BE should feel free to buy their horses wherever its up to the breeders to up their game and make them desirable to purchase.
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Buying horses from anywhere not British is OK if its a level playing field many countries particularly France have financial support for the best breeders and only select French horse for some teams as so do other countries. The old saying fools breed horses for wise men to buy still holds true in the UK when to get a well bred foal on the ground costs at least £3000 and many sell for less.
 
sywell said:
Buying horses from anywhere not British is OK if its a level playing field many countries particularly France have financial support for the best breeders and only select French horse for some teams as so do other countries. The old saying fools breed horses for wise men to buy still holds true in the UK when to get a well bred foal on the ground costs at least £3000 and many sell for less.
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The irish breeders are also getting a little help too

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/hors...ew-training-network-for-irish-breeders-166098
 
ycbm said:
Isn't the question 'why should they'? Why should BE members pay higher fees to support British breeders? I genuinely do not understand. When I was competing BE, I did it on a variety of British and Irish bred horses, mostly British. As an ordinary rider competing 90/100/novice there was no shortage of horses. And it was expensive enough without paying an additional amount to support British breeders of horses at the top of the market.

If you believe support can be provided at no cost, can you explain exactly what support you are looking for?
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I have stated earlier that there is no intention for BE members to pay higher fees to support British Breeding. They shouldn't.

Support can be provided at no cost. One idea is to change the balloting system to a wait list system. so rather than being balloted out of an event you would be waitlisted. This would allow you still to compete if other withdrew or enter another event else where. This would benefit all BE competitors.

Following on from the ballot/waitlisting we could for 4,5, 6, 7, 8 and 9yo national championship classes give priority to British Bred horses, that is they could not be waitlisted. I have had a fair number of people raising this as an issue in 6 and 7 yo classes and 5yo qualifying classes.

Prize money (yes they do sometimes pay this) could be double for British Bred at 4,5, 6, 7, 8 and 9yo championships, but this would need sponsors to agree so unlikely to happen at the moment.


That's a couple of thoughts from feedback I have had.

I have had some feedback from a couple of the BE board members on other things they are working on which I will post on here when I have it all. The investigation into the BEF hopefully won't slow this progress.

Thanks
 
So you want BE competitors riding English bred horses given priority entry over other members, who'll have paid the same fees, riding horses of other and unknown breeding? If I was still competing that would make me mad.

Wait lists already exist and I'm very confused about how you mean their would work for English horses.
 
I don't think giving British bred horses priority is the right way to go at all. Surely we need to see level playing field with the rest of the world at all times, otherwise how can we assess if we are going in the right direction.
 
Springs said:
I have stated earlier that there is no intention for BE members to pay higher fees to support British Breeding. They shouldn't.

Support can be provided at no cost. One idea is to change the balloting system to a wait list system. so rather than being balloted out of an event you would be waitlisted. This would allow you still to compete if other withdrew or enter another event else where. This would benefit all BE competitors.

Following on from the ballot/waitlisting we could for 4,5, 6, 7, 8 and 9yo national championship classes give priority to British Bred horses, that is they could not be waitlisted. I have had a fair number of people raising this as an issue in 6 and 7 yo classes and 5yo qualifying classes.

Prize money (yes they do sometimes pay this) could be double for British Bred at 4,5, 6, 7, 8 and 9yo championships, but this would need sponsors to agree so unlikely to happen at the moment.


That's a couple of thoughts from feedback I have had.

I have had some feedback from a couple of the BE board members on other things they are working on which I will post on here when I have it all. The investigation into the BEF hopefully won't slow this progress.

Thanks
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There is already a waitlist system ! However many would rather not be waitlisted wanting their entry back to enter elsewhere . Why should British bred horses get preference in the entry system as they pay exactly the same fees as everybody else. I still dont quite understand what you are proposing and how it would benefit British breeders. If they produce horses that are good enough to compete with those bred elsewhere thats all the promotion they need.
Surely 4 and 5yo are the only age championships where you have to qualify through qualifiers all the others are balloted on FEI criteria which takes into account performance level of the horse if the class is over subscribed.
 
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Asha said:
I don't think giving British bred horses priority is the right way to go at all. Surely we need to see level playing field with the rest of the world at all times, otherwise how can we assess if we are going in the right direction.
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I agree. Should nationality be the entry criteria and should there be 'better' horses barred from entry on the grounds that they aren't British, then it narrows the field with an almost certain decline in standards. If British horses can't compete against those from abroad, then the answer is that the British take a long hard look at the principles which they apply to their (our!) breeding programmes.

Alec.
 
Springs said:
But why shouldn't BE support British Breeding?

The data for the 5yo young horse championships in the U.K. Was 19% British Bred, the same class in France was over 90%
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So far as I understood it, you can't compete in France unless you are on a French bred horse - or one that belongs to a studbook that the French National Federation recognise.
 
Alec Swan said:
I agree. Should nationality be the entry criteria and should there be 'better' horses barred from entry on the grounds that they aren't British, then it narrows the field with an almost certain decline in standards. If British horses can't compete against those from abroad, then the answer is that the British take a long hard look at the principles which they apply to their (our!) breeding programmes.

Alec.
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Remember we are just talking about the 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 age classes. Nothing else and from the feed back I have had form others outside of HH most agree that British Bred should have priority in these classes.
 
Anyone able to explain why we have sent British riders on foreign bred or registered horses to the WBFSH championships for young horses at LeLion d’Angers?

Isn’t it the stud books that take the credit and not the country?

Just wondering.
 
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