Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
There are - there are also rules about whipping. But if no-one enforces them......
British Rider Suspended
- Thread starter LEC
- Start date
There are - there are also rules about whipping. But if no-one enforces them......
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
This has been across FB and James Smith has at least been suspended.
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It does kind of annoy me on this forum that we will pick apart and tear holes into dressage riders but James Smith and his actual welfare issue go uncommented on. If James is prepared to do this at a show…. What do we think goes on at home?
I don't know how you expect people to criticise things which have never been brought to their attention.
Thank you for reporting this. It is disgusting behaviour.
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LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
I guess we all live in an echo chamber. My interests are very much the Olympic disciplines and so all my socials feeds are geared towards it in groups I belong to, federations I like and national bodies I follow. I guess if your interest is more dressage then that will appear more strongly so you see more of it.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
When I had a good show jumping pony some years ago I thought that the qualification for a ring steward was blindness. it was amazing what they didn't see,
eahotson
Well-Known Member
I
At Bolesworth I saw a well know rider have a stop which I thought was his fault actually.He upended his stick, leaned across and dealt the horse a vicious blow.Nothing was said.I reported it to the BSJA and pointed out that it was all on camera.The BSJA reported back to say they were looking into it.Never heard anymore.He is still featured reasonably regularly in HH.When I posted about it on here people kept saying that he is such a nice man!
have know about getting the horse to stop and then thrashing it for a long time.One method is to put two jumps up at a distance the horse can't manage.When it stops, as it has to, you thrash it.I have also seen children thrashed for making a mistake in the ring.I wouldn't have thought that that engendered kindness.
At Bolesworth I saw a well know rider have a stop which I thought was his fault actually.He upended his stick, leaned across and dealt the horse a vicious blow.Nothing was said.I reported it to the BSJA and pointed out that it was all on camera.The BSJA reported back to say they were looking into it.Never heard anymore.He is still featured reasonably regularly in HH.When I posted about it on here people kept saying that he is such a nice man!
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Horses can go behind the vertical for many reasons it’s a incorrectness like many other things like being above the bit ,not going forward enough , being stiff through the lateral bend , lack of straightness , interruptions in the rhythm I could go on and on .
I don’t the that being the same thing as horses being trained to chains to promote a certain shape and rapping, rapping is a horrible thing that leaves some horses permanently mentally scarred .
I don’t the that being the same thing as horses being trained to chains to promote a certain shape and rapping, rapping is a horrible thing that leaves some horses permanently mentally scarred .
humblepie
Well-Known Member
Interesting re the warm ups and what isn't reported, or a lack of action. Donkeys years ago back when Oxford had a county show, we were watching the Area International Trial (shows how long ago it was) and a rider's horse knocked the timing equipment at the finish. Rider swore...rider came over and apologised for swearing! Always stuck with me.
I think as others have said the ring stewards need to have the confidence and the knowledge to be able to pick things up and that if they are reported that they will be looked at. I thought that practice fences couldn't be higher than the class or 5cm higher than the class or something like that, but it is many moons since I affiliated show jumped.
I think as others have said the ring stewards need to have the confidence and the knowledge to be able to pick things up and that if they are reported that they will be looked at. I thought that practice fences couldn't be higher than the class or 5cm higher than the class or something like that, but it is many moons since I affiliated show jumped.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Re criticising show jumping and dressage, the stewarding issues are the same but I do think there's quite a big difference between pointing out what individual riders are doing wrong in a show jumping arena/warm up and pointing out what's going wrong at the top of dressage, from a desire to change the judging of FEI Grand Prix. In show jumping you have individual idiots doing bad things. In dressage (and showing) there is currently a whole system of judging encouraging bad things.
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ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I've known horses who would refuse to approach a fence if anyone was stood beside it or started to walk towards it. It was a complete giveaway what had happened to them in the past.
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KC31
New User
Been going on for longer than i can remember. The fact he got up early in the morning makes you wonder if he had always done the same thing at these stay away shows! There are people who HH and others say are amazing riders, i had a horse off one of them many years ago. He had, had electrics, been rapped and who knows what else. I wouldn't let the rider anywhere near my bike! Yet they are constantly written about for their amazing riding/horses. The fact most of what they ride are in huge bits and masks often makes me wonder if that is due to the fact they run on fear! Same as one of the event riders who is even worse, until it is constantly called out and proper fines/bans are implemented it will carry on.
Crazy_cat_lady
Well-Known Member
It's probably not been commented on as people weren't aware of it until now
Now we can see it, it is disgusting and clearly a form of rapping. Wonder how many other sj or even event do it behind closed doors
Now we can see it, it is disgusting and clearly a form of rapping. Wonder how many other sj or even event do it behind closed doors
equinerebel
Well-Known Member
Such ugly behaviour is really tainting these sports for me, which is a shame. I have always been so passionate about them, but I barely want to be associated with any of them now.
Crazy_cat_lady
Well-Known Member
What a shame we can't name people would be very interested who this as I watch SJ or eventing occasionally when on tv and would be nice to know who I shouldn't want to do well!
In schools all staff, including volunteers and contractors are encouraged and empowered to raise safeguarding concerns or know what to do if a child raises one and who to report them to - perhaps stewards need to be able to be more empowered and who in authority to raise something with without fear of the volunteer being told to go away because the pro is more important than them/what do they know as they aren't one etc etc
On site reporting channels need to be made clear, I'm not surprised they don't dare raise directly with the person doing the welfare issues as they aren't being paid for their time and don't fancy a gobful of abuse
Volunteers and stewards and members of the public need more visibility of who to report concerns to - schools have safeguarding posters of who the DSLs are etc.
Football, there's a number in the programme/on the backs of seats to text the seat number of anyone being racist etc to
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reynold
Well-Known Member
See in the H&H report that the groom involved has had renewal of her BS membership blocked.
scats
Well-Known Member
Good.
If humans can’t ride, train and compete horses at top level without abusing them, then horse sport at the top level shouldn’t exist. And if that filters down to the grassroots and below, then so be it.
There needs to a complete zero tolerance from now on.
All events, shows and competitions, whatever level, ought to have a designated person that welfare concerns can be reported to. And they need to be acted upon. It should be something set up to cover all equestrian events- not affiliated with any other organization (FEI, BE, BS etc) but certainly working in close proximity with them to ensure the correct treatment of horses.
ihatework
Well-Known Member
I agree that those others influential and enabling such offences should be held accountable too.
Not specific to this example, but I would just caution that some grooms really are in a power abusing situation whereby they don’t have a lot of choice. Not everyone, not all situations obviously. But the dynamics at play can be very toxic and I wouldn’t want to see these people routinely openly shamed on social media prior to assessment of the full situation.
Riders - always fair game.
Celtic Fringe
Well-Known Member
Several years ago my son was part of an U18 eventing team. They completed the dressage and XC fine but by the third day the horse was fine but a little tired. The team trainer told us to remove his boots during the warm up. Unfortunately I didn't think it through enough at the time but essentially this was a form of rapping as the horse did not then have any of his usual leg protection over the poles. My son was invited back onto the team the following year but refused the offer - this was a contributory factor.
tristars
Well-Known Member
Yes! and it should include any horse lame or possibly lame being sent out for further assessment
lots of video needed
all entrants to sign willingness to obey stewards, all requests by members of the public to be noted
eahotson
Well-Known Member
Why is the groom being punished?
eahotson
Well-Known Member
Agree.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
Terrible.
EventingMum
Well-Known Member
This is not good at all, social licence is such a hot topic just now you would think people would be more aware. I think it is more unforgiveable amongst professional riders who should be setting an example not considering themselves above the rules. We've all seen children taking their frustration out on their ponies and hopefully they are pulled up on their behaviour quickly but for an adult professional to do something like this is not in the heat of the moment but an appalling conscious decision. What goes on in training at home is, I'm sure, often not nice but hard to police, to undertake these practices on a show ground really does sound like the rider thinks he's exempt from the rules. I find this especially sad as I remember him on ponies when my son jumped always being supported by his grandfather, I also am a customer of their family business but may well think twice about using them again.
Crazy_cat_lady
Well-Known Member
Imagine the outcry if an F1 team principal had a way of making a driver's seat jolt him uncomfortably because he didn't take a corner fast enough
Or a football manager who was able to have a way of knocking a player's legs because he shot wide of a goal
Or a football manager who was able to have a way of knocking a player's legs because he shot wide of a goal
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
Maybe they should film warmups routinely, with an official able to view footage if there is a complaint. Just being filmed would make a big difference to behaviour I think.
Maddie Moo
Well-Known Member
She’s the one holding the stick as far as I can gather.
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
BEF have just launched a new charter for the horse.
It sounds promising in that the rule books are being re-written to refocus on equine welfare. But then it says it’s based on the FEI charter published April last year! Which bypassed me completely, and which doesn’t seem to have made a whole lot of difference given the state of the sport right now.
Still at least it’s something.
It sounds promising in that the rule books are being re-written to refocus on equine welfare. But then it says it’s based on the FEI charter published April last year! Which bypassed me completely, and which doesn’t seem to have made a whole lot of difference given the state of the sport right now.
Still at least it’s something.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
Oh I see.
GoldenWillow
Well-Known Member
Yes this or horses that suddenly massively overjumped when people at or walking towards jumps. Total giveaway!
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Our horse H would bronc if someone approached a fence he once bronced me off because wthe trainer picked up a block to put under a trotting pole .
I agree with you a Groom abroad in situation like that is in a difficult place, such situations can be be abusive .
The rider they can throw whatever they want at him with staff you have to acknowledge their lack of power in the situation.
Titchy Pony
Well-Known Member
There is a lot that goes on in horse sport at all levels that shouldn't happen.
The other day, I was very tired and grumpy at a competition held at my riding school. This woman was riding a horse that was either not ready to compete or having a very bad day. On the round, it was alternating between planting and rearing multiple times, and galloping headlong around the arena, interspersed with stopping at the jumps. She was regularly hitting it with her stick. They were eliminated about two times over from the number of refusals but the jury wasn't saying anything (the speaker is a lovely 19yo lad that obviously wasn't confident to intervene). I'm afraid, I lost my rag and shouted at the rider to bloody stop and get out of the ring because she wasn't getting anywhere and the rest of us would like to ride before night fall. I had absolutely no authority to shout out, but she did stop and come out. Her friend was not impressed that I wasn't very polite about horse abuse and told me there were means and ways of saying things. I may have replicated that there are means and ways of riding horses that didn't involve beating it. I later found out that the rider then went on to hit the horse with her stick in the parking lot. Another person from our riding school with an even shorter fuse than mine told her in no uncertain terms to stop that immediately. The pair left and I doubt we will be seeing them again at our competitions.
But it has taught me, that even as fellow competitors or spectators, we can do something to help welfare at competitions.
We have found that booing, even at higher level competitions will generally get riders to rethink their actions and possibly retire while they're not quite ahead. Several members of my riding school have followed angry looking trainers of ponies that have dumped kids in the warm up back to the parking lot with phone out ready to film; the trainer thought better of whatever they were planning. My instructors have been known to park their horses in front of jumps in the warm up if someone was ragging their horse over the jumps or hiking them up way higher than permitted and wouldn't stop after a polite request. Said person then had no option but to stop jumping in the warm up. I've had words with kids whose pony I've caught after they've fallen off and they've yanked it in the mouth when I've handed it back; if they can't stay on, it's not the pony's fault.
To my great shame, I didn't do anything when I saw a very poor horse competing low level. I have sent mental apologies out to that poor horse and I've promised myself to intervene in the future (I hope never to see a horse in such poor condition at a competition again; as a rule of thumb, anything less fit than my 27yo should not be anywhere near a jump) by taking a photo or video and taking it to the jury and asking them to exclude the horse from the competition on welfare grounds. If they refuse, I will inform them that I will take it up with the federation (I'm in France) and if that fails, I will be going the social media route. I think often people (me included) need a nudge to act when they know they should but no one else does. I intend to provide nudges as much as possible.
I will also look at becoming a judge (jumping and / or dressage) and warm up steward at some point to support and become one of the people who should be acting.
I won't be changing horse sports single handedly, but if I can make people in my area remember the short crazy lady with a sharp tongue on the side of the arena, maybe they will think twice about their methods. And if the number of crazy people with sharp tongues increases, that can only be a good thing.
The other day, I was very tired and grumpy at a competition held at my riding school. This woman was riding a horse that was either not ready to compete or having a very bad day. On the round, it was alternating between planting and rearing multiple times, and galloping headlong around the arena, interspersed with stopping at the jumps. She was regularly hitting it with her stick. They were eliminated about two times over from the number of refusals but the jury wasn't saying anything (the speaker is a lovely 19yo lad that obviously wasn't confident to intervene). I'm afraid, I lost my rag and shouted at the rider to bloody stop and get out of the ring because she wasn't getting anywhere and the rest of us would like to ride before night fall. I had absolutely no authority to shout out, but she did stop and come out. Her friend was not impressed that I wasn't very polite about horse abuse and told me there were means and ways of saying things. I may have replicated that there are means and ways of riding horses that didn't involve beating it. I later found out that the rider then went on to hit the horse with her stick in the parking lot. Another person from our riding school with an even shorter fuse than mine told her in no uncertain terms to stop that immediately. The pair left and I doubt we will be seeing them again at our competitions.
But it has taught me, that even as fellow competitors or spectators, we can do something to help welfare at competitions.
We have found that booing, even at higher level competitions will generally get riders to rethink their actions and possibly retire while they're not quite ahead. Several members of my riding school have followed angry looking trainers of ponies that have dumped kids in the warm up back to the parking lot with phone out ready to film; the trainer thought better of whatever they were planning. My instructors have been known to park their horses in front of jumps in the warm up if someone was ragging their horse over the jumps or hiking them up way higher than permitted and wouldn't stop after a polite request. Said person then had no option but to stop jumping in the warm up. I've had words with kids whose pony I've caught after they've fallen off and they've yanked it in the mouth when I've handed it back; if they can't stay on, it's not the pony's fault.
To my great shame, I didn't do anything when I saw a very poor horse competing low level. I have sent mental apologies out to that poor horse and I've promised myself to intervene in the future (I hope never to see a horse in such poor condition at a competition again; as a rule of thumb, anything less fit than my 27yo should not be anywhere near a jump) by taking a photo or video and taking it to the jury and asking them to exclude the horse from the competition on welfare grounds. If they refuse, I will inform them that I will take it up with the federation (I'm in France) and if that fails, I will be going the social media route. I think often people (me included) need a nudge to act when they know they should but no one else does. I intend to provide nudges as much as possible.
I will also look at becoming a judge (jumping and / or dressage) and warm up steward at some point to support and become one of the people who should be acting.
I won't be changing horse sports single handedly, but if I can make people in my area remember the short crazy lady with a sharp tongue on the side of the arena, maybe they will think twice about their methods. And if the number of crazy people with sharp tongues increases, that can only be a good thing.