Bullying instructors

[Michen]

It’s a fine balance. I am not a crier in any pressurised or stressful work situation or in life at all but I actually cried in front of Caroline Moore at an overnight camp once. She hadn’t done anything wrong btw, she’s a fantastic coach, but I was really struggling with my nerves and had this bizarre mental block. On the outside you’d never know that I was dying inside until the tears came!

Highly embarrassing.

So a sympathetic coach when you are truly nervous I think is important. But I am very much up for being told straight how it is as well, if I’m doing something bad!

 

[Goldenstar]

Anyone who thinks bad behaviour from coaches or whatever you choose to call them is a riding issue is way way wide of the mark.

 

[J&S]

Both Honepot and Rowreach make two interesting points, one about the Coach and one about the Pupil.

A very talented, naturally gifted rider (or athlete from any other sport) will find it much harder to convey the "how to" to their clients than a possibly mediocre rider/coach who has had to think their way to success and can explain to their pupil the process.

A client/pupil who attends lessons on a regular basis and relies entirely on these lessons to make progress. ie they do not work on the content of these lessons in the interims.

Years ago I had lessons with a now very succesful dressage rider and I can remember her saying to me one day how refreshing it was to have a client who actually practiced and worked on the things we were working on in between lessons. I was a bit shocked at the time to hear this but thinking about it now I am imagining that at the time I was pretty strapped for spare cash, keeping my pony was a balancing act and lessons to improve her and myself where precious, many other clients just floated along and having "lessons" was just another thing in their lives.

 

[Rowreach]

It is a 2 way street but as an education professional, I am appalled reading some of these stories. No-one should ever end up in tears in a lesson about anything, least of all, when you are paying for the privilege. Even at the very highest level learning should be fun, otherwise what's the point?
And for anybody who simply wants to improve their skill at a hobby, surely enjoying the process is the whole point of the lesson. Would you pay for knitting lessons, if all the teacher did was tell you that you were useless and pulled all your stitches off the knitting needle, leaving you wondering what to do next?

I've been involved in sports coaching and coach education professionally for 25 years and no, I wouldn't put up with or pay for this type of experience, but I'm amazed at these stories and I'm just questioning that the same people have had the misfortune to get lessons with all these appalling coaches and wondering if there is a link?

I'm not excusing bad coaching, I just don't believe that there are quite so many evil coaches out there that this thread suggests, which is why I asked at the start if people think that coaches are improving.

As hard as a coach can try, some people are very difficult to coach, which is why the first thing you need to establish between you is why the person is getting lessons. Coaching should be fun and rewarding for all parties - and that's what makes it successful at any level.

 

[Rowreach]

Anyone who thinks bad behaviour from coaches or whatever you choose to call them is a riding issue is way way wide of the mark.

And who said that?

 

[Goldenstar]

Great competitors can make great trainers but it’s not a given . Often they struggle to identify with the pleasure rider competitive or otherwise and often they just don’t have the formal grounding in a training system and or they have never been taught how to teach the mechanics of development of position in rider .
Thats where I see the biggest weakness now lack of position training .

 

[TheHairyOne]

I have had good and bad over the years but I am a pretty strong character and let my feet do the talking. If they dont work for me I just dont go back.

Interesting story though. I went to a german lady for some lessons and I thought she was wonderful. So much knowledge, so much engagement and encouragement and brought my horse and I on so so much in a short space of time (she moved away and I was gutted). Now my pet hate is someone who is over the top with the praise. Dont tell me something was wonderful when it really wasnt please! Tell me it was better, or that was the start of what I am looking for, but that 20m circle Ive just trotted was wonkey and the horse fell out through the shoulder to the track so dont act like I just rode it like I was destined for greatness next week. Well, the improvements were obvious so 3 other people at the yard booked in. 2 also loved her, 1 left the lesson in tears because she wasnt told that everything was wonderful (and the lady refused her money when offered) and it seemed didnt really want to learn. Now she would I assume say she was 'ripped apart', I saw someone who didnt do it as a living but liked to teach trying to help...how you teach without finding the flaws I dont know. I am not very good but used to leave feeling like I was on clould 9. All german lady wanted was for you to try! If it didnt work she had so much knowledge she would try something else.

Just goes to show how sometimes it can just be a personality clash and what works for one won't for others.

As for me. I will not book a XC lesson with someone Ive not seen teach and preferably had a jumping lesson with over stuff that falls down. Its what I am most concerned about, which makes me not ride well at the start (sometimes for all of it depending on the day) and get that wrong and its all kinds of bad. Horse is a great jumper and it would be easy to get pushed way beyond our limits so I dont put myself in that position.

 

[Goldenstar]

There are many people who don’t really want to be trained they book a lesson for a day out with their horse .
There are loads of trainers who are great at this level and there’s no problem with this .
People have a right to enjoy their horses in any they choose ( as long as of course it’s well cared for ) and many people don’t want to challenged mentally or physically .
I know the trainers who for me I don’t like bs and I don’t appreciate being told everything to great when I know it’s not .
I am not a pupil for a crown pleaser .
Theres a whole list things I don’t like I seek out what I like and know works .
I don’t take training personally and you do see people who do this but I am single minded in that seek what I want .
Don‘t over think this don’t go to people who don’t work for you .
Don't except people to change to suit you .

 

[Griffin]

I think some instructors are unable to teach to the horse and rider. Equally, I think some riders are unable to accept constructive criticism (but it does need to be constructive).

My mare is very sensitive, although she can come across as rude/naughty, she only behaves like this if she is unsure or tired. Our current trainer understands this and as a result, our lessons are fantastic and my mare has made lots of progress.

In contrast, I had an BHS trained instructor for a couple of months before I found our current trainer. All she did was shout at us and try to make me put my mare in a more severe bit and bridle arrangement (my mare is ridden in a snaffle and anatomical bridle), neither of which we needed. I had been taught by her before but on a different horse (a very straightforward gelding) and she had been fine. I wonder whether on reflection that she had a very particular way of teaching and if the horse didn't respond to this, she was unsure what to do.

I think like joint supplements, some instructors suit some horses and riders better than others.

 

[jumbyjack]

I'm more than a bit shocked at some of this stuff, I thought it had been left behind in the sixties. I did see my fair share of gastly PC instructors who bawled and belittled riders and the boring leading file trot to the rear of the ride sort. I took a hunting whip complete with lash off an instructor as she was terrorizing smalls and their ponies with it!

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

As for me. I will not book a XC lesson with someone Ive not seen teach and preferably had a jumping lesson with over stuff that falls down. Its what I am most concerned about, which makes me not ride well at the start (sometimes for all of it depending on the day) and get that wrong and its all kinds of bad. Horse is a great jumper and it would be easy to get pushed way beyond our limits so I dont put myself in that position.

I agree.
When I was coaching, I would try and ensure any new faces were able to warm up over some show jumps 1st, so I could observe how they tackled as you say 'falling down stuff'.

I think where I am located, we are very fortunate to have a number of coaches, many of whom are very good indeed. Of our RC ones, 3 out of 4 I'm very happy to train with, I just don't book in for the 4th one

 

[Shilasdair]

at this thread.

Student-led teaching is the way forward - the student needs to tell the instructor what to tell the student - the result will be both beautiful and harmonious.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I did not want to de rail the bullying on livery yard thread with this. So have any of you felt over whelmed by your ri. Eg they tare strips off you about your tack, horses way of going, your commitment, riding ability etc. Then demand you dont do anything other than ride in there presence and tell you when you are having lessons, saddler, back person, dentist etc.....all of which they happen to be able to organise for you, regardless of if you wanted it or not.
I am a lot older so can be donkey stubborn nowadays, but a trainer I have had s lesson with lately has just rubbed me up the wrong way, she is so pushy. Now I dont know everything and am obviously paying for advice but 2 others on my yard have had lessons and felt intimidated. It's a shame really because she has got some excellent tips with the horses, she is just smothering. If you were a weaker person or a bit novicey around horses you could be well and truly ripped off and quashed.
I have not re booked her which is a shame because I was getting some good tips but the negative out weighed the bad.

When training I was bullied a bit being dyslexic. I won't tolerate on my yard so would not tolerate a bully

 

[Shilasdair]

And - you are all wimps.
There used to be a Scottish instructor (and BHS examiner no less) who was (in)famous for lobbing half bricks at riders she felt were not listening.

 

[Goldenstar]

And - you are all wimps.
There used to be a Scottish instructor (and BHS examiner no less) who was (in)famous for lobbing half bricks at riders she felt were not listening.

Did she keep them in a skip in the school or pull them out the walls with her teeth .

 

[Meowy Catkin]

The brick thing sounds like something that George Morris would do and if anyone had read about him on Chronicle of the Horse or elsewhere, he is vile beyond words.

 

[Shilasdair]

Did she keep them in a skip in the school or pull them out the walls with her teeth .

I cannot answer this - I was never crazy enough to subject myself to a lesson (although she did examine me in one of my BHS stages but no assault occurred).

 

[Gingerwitch]

The first problem is that so many people are still calling them "instructors" and "trainers" when every other sport I can think of has "coaches".

It may seem like semantics but it actually makes a huge difference in changing the mindsets of the coach and the athlete (and yes you are athletes). Sports coach education really is changing, although the BHS still isn't there yet.

I do think though that riders need to really think about why they are having coaching and what they are spending their money for. It is very frustrating as a coach when for example someone comes week after week in a saddle that fits neither the horse nor themselves but refuses to get it sorted, while wondering why the coach can't sort their position out and why the horse won't go forward. Or anything else that is actually making the job of coaching pretty impossible to do.

Yes the coach's role is to get the best out of every client and their horse, but a lot of these comments on this thread suggest a real lack of willingness to be coached. It's a two way street!

So coach/trainer should in this case explain exactly that. Look x I am so sorry but most of the issues we have are caused by the saddle which I know you have been told gits the horse and you but do you mind if I just show you go through the issues. I can recomend smx and y and a to help resolve the issue, but I am ever si sorry that we are not going to be able to move forward on your position or horses wsybof going. Look I can only get x finger width here and it needs to be x. Your being perched forward, tipped backward etc. Basicslky polite show and tell and offer help. Most instructors just say your saddle is crap and leave it at that.
If client refues to listen to a detailed explanation or maybe even video and explain then I would say I am ever so sorry but until we resolve x issue I dont want to waste your money. As an instructor I would not want to be associated with lame horses or cruel riders. A badly fitting saddle that has been correctly explained to the rider in my opinion is a cruel rider.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

at this thread.

Student-led teaching is the way forward - the student needs to tell the instructor what to tell the student - the result will be both beautiful and harmonious.

The coach certainly needs to ask the student what they are hoping to achieve a) in this lesson b) longer term. And if the student is in a clinic aimed at a particular level of rider, the coach should be honest if they don't think the student will get much from the session, whatever the reason for that is.

 

[Gingerwitch]

Maybe its the way we learn. Dont give me a part of a puzzle ie shout at me without the ability to tell me what was wrong, why it was wrong, what i need to change, why this will help and then explain the execution of all the parts leg, seat, hands, back, head, eyes, neck etc. If I dont get it after 3 attempts then you need to find a way to explain it or show it or draw it or give me a link to a video or book. I have to do this in one of my roles at work, screaming at someone trying to learn to reverse into one of our clients bays would not work. Some I show, some I tell, some I direct from the bunk, some from the ground. Somebody use a drain cover as a guide, some I use a turn to hear, look at the writing on the trailer, whenbut gets to x wap it off. Some i teach wiggly diggly but to others it's a wig dig or a left or right on near and offside. Everyone is different and some need more than one way to be shown. On occasion I have to literally brake it down step by step and leave them to process and try. I have never not taught this reverse and would find it my failure as a teacher not to be able to find away of teaching. Shouting the same comment over and over does not work and why woukd it ? If you dont understand first time why would it be better when its accompanied by an insult or temper?
Why do I have lessons ? Because I want to improve my riding and horses way of going/more reactive to transitions up and down and a better rhythm. I dont want you to hop on and show off that you are a fantastic rider - I am sure you are way better than I can dream of being. But please help me to learn, tell me, show me, explain what I need to do and why and how. Dont rubbish me and take over my horse and my hobby, I want to enjoy the lesson, if I enjoy the lesson I am relaxed, challenged and focussed. I am willing to work hard and practice, be on time and well presented. I want you to turn up on time and give my a professional lesson. Do not get personal about me, my horse, my yard or how much I can spend.

 

[Shilasdair]

The coach certainly needs to ask the student what they are hoping to achieve a) in this lesson b) longer term. And if the student is in a clinic aimed at a particular level of rider, the coach should be honest if they don't think the student will get much from the session, whatever the reason for that is.

I didn't know you were a riding instructor, PAS?
The problem is - that by the time someone has boxed their horse up, travelled to a clinic, having declared themselves 'an eventer who jumps entirely fictitious fence heights', as an instructor you are unlikely to say 'Good Devil - you are awful and had better go home'.
(We've all been there with the shaky rising trot in the jump lesson).

 

[Rowreach]

Maybe its the way we learn. Dont give me a part of a puzzle ie shout at me without the ability to tell me what was wrong, why it was wrong, what i need to change, why this will help and then explain the execution of all the parts leg, seat, hands, back, head, eyes, neck etc. If I dont get it after 3 attempts then you need to find a way to explain it or show it or draw it or give me a link to a video or book. I have to do this in one of my roles at work, screaming at someone trying to learn to reverse into one of our clients bays would not work. Some I show, some I tell, some I direct from the bunk, some from the ground. Somebody use a drain cover as a guide, some I use a turn to hear, look at the writing on the trailer, whenbut gets to x wap it off. Some i teach wiggly diggly but to others it's a wig dig or a left or right on near and offside. Everyone is different and some need more than one way to be shown. On occasion I have to literally brake it down step by step and leave them to process and try. I have never not taught this reverse and would find it my failure as a teacher not to be able to find away of teaching. Shouting the same comment over and over does not work and why woukd it ? If you dont understand first time why would it be better when its accompanied by an insult or temper?
Why do I have lessons ? Because I want to improve my riding and horses way of going/more reactive to transitions up and down and a better rhythm. I dont want you to hop on and show off that you are a fantastic rider - I am sure you are way better than I can dream of being. But please help me to learn, tell me, show me, explain what I need to do and why and how. Dont rubbish me and take over my horse and my hobby, I want to enjoy the lesson, if I enjoy the lesson I am relaxed, challenged and focussed. I am willing to work hard and practice, be on time and well presented. I want you to turn up on time and give my a professional lesson. Do not get personal about me, my horse, my yard or how much I can spend.

You have the wrong coach(es).

 

[Gingerwitch]

You have the wrong coach(es).

Thanks rowreach, its finding the good ones. It's a bit more problematic for me as 8 often locate long distances, so you end up going through most of the recommended ones, you gave them, then your asked how you got on and you say, not quite what I need with x horse or I want to do x and the person who recomended them usually says I know I am the same and you roll your eyes.
I once had was an instructor who tried to ride my horse from the ground. She snatched the reins out of my hands and started backing horse, flexing etc and constantly clicking it. To this day I have zero idea what she was trying to teach or show me, I just knew horse was fizzing and it went up.

 

[jnb]

If it is frustrating for "coaches" to teach people who don't take criticism well/don't practise (some of us don't have the means to practise between lessons or even ride between them) then they can always not take the rider's money? As could the rider choose not to be taught by the frustrated coach.
I cannot think of a single reason as an instructor, you could excuse being personal about a rider (or someone's beloved horse) - surely to coach is to help/assist a partnership to improve?
There are many reasons by people have lessons......at least 50% of my reason, is to have the use of a school and canter, because I can't do either at home (unless I ride at least 30 min through very steep & wet/muddy in winter, terrain). I work all the daylight hours from Oct to March so I can't ride in the week unless I book annual leave. So I have a lesson.

 

[Rowreach]

Thanks rowreach, its finding the good ones. It's a bit more problematic for me as 8 often locate long distances, so you end up going through most of the recommended ones, you gave them, then your asked how you got on and you say, not quite what I need with x horse or I want to do x and the person who recomended them usually says I know I am the same and you roll your eyes.
I once had was an instructor who tried to ride my horse from the ground. She snatched the reins out of my hands and started backing horse, flexing etc and constantly clicking it. To this day I have zero idea what she was trying to teach or show me, I just knew horse was fizzing and it went up.

Sometimes you are better off finding a visiting coach who maybe comes into your area once every few months, but will give you a plan of action to work on in between times. They know that you need to have a good understanding of what that work is, so they should make sure you are clear on that, and it gives you more control over what you are doing with your own horse.

I very very rarely rode someone's horse in a lesson, and only when I couldn't figure out why something wasn't working, so I could get a feel of what wasn't right, rather than trying to show I could do it better than they could

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I didn't know you were a riding instructor, PAS?
The problem is - that by the time someone has boxed their horse up, travelled to a clinic, having declared themselves 'an eventer who jumps entirely fictitious fence heights', as an instructor you are unlikely to say 'Good Devil - you are awful and had better go home'.
(We've all been there with the shaky rising trot in the jump lesson).

No, I am not a riding instructor. However I have been in many lessons given by a RI and watched many more. I wouldn't actually need to be able to ride a horse to recognise a good lesson. In fact I wouldn't need to be able to speak Swahili in order to recognise a good lesson taught in Swahili. And I don't mean a lesson that fits into a formula but one that the students enjoy and come away from having learned something and wanting more.

I would hope in the circumstances that you cite, the RI would be able to provide something valuable for the rider to participate in but would expect the coach or the organiser to have spoken to an unknown rider prior to the lesson to establish the level that they normally work at. Otherwise how do they plan their lesson?

 

[Meredith]

Very interesting reading everyone. Some of these stories take me back in time.
I have had lessons actually by mistake with 2 trainers that I really enjoyed. However both are far more ‘high powered’ and all their clinics are too advanced for me. I will not go again because I although I know I will be helped the others in the clinic will find my lack of ability frustrating.
I have also had an XC lesson with an instructor who referred to your body being forward, upright or back as positions 1,2 and 3. I couldn’t remember whether forward or back was 1 or 3 and became confused. It was a waste of time. Many people locally think he is great. I have never had another lesson with him.
I have lessons with a couple of instructors who although I do not gel exactly do help so I muddle along as best I can.
I can’t practise in between as I don’t have an arena.

 

[Gingerwitch]

If it is frustrating for "coaches" to teach people who don't take criticism well/don't practise (some of us don't have the means to practise between lessons or even ride between them) then they can always not take the rider's money? As could the rider choose not to be taught by the frustrated coach.
I cannot think of a single reason as an instructor, you could excuse being personal about a rider (or someone's beloved horse) - surely to coach is to help/assist a partnership to improve?
There are many reasons by people have lessons......at least 50% of my reason, is to have the use of a school and canter, because I can't do either at home (unless I ride at least 30 min through very steep & wet/muddy in winter, terrain). I work all the daylight hours from Oct to March so I can't ride in the week unless I book annual leave. So I have a lesson.

Criticism imo can only be constructive when you know the person knows what they should be doing and that the horse has the correct foundation and fitness to do what is being asked.
But were being trained. So let's do basics I can say your riding position is awful you look like your shagging a pig and your horse is on the forehand.
Or you can say. Right so can you feel where your sitting ? Can you feel that your tipping forward, this is making your horse hollow and putting extra weight on his front, this makes him unbalanced so he puts his head up and runs even faster, this makes you nervous and lean more forward.
So takes rider and gently pushes her into the correct position, tells her to breath, if mirrors show in them or if sunny use your shadow and so on. Then get them walking and halting ask rider to talk through what they are feeling and thinking and ellie them to learn the feel and corrections. Just shouting instructions us not teaching x

 

[Orangehorse]

An instructor who is now a Fellow, was well known locally for making her pupils cry. Hopefully she improved!

 

[milliepops]

Sometimes you are better off finding a visiting coach who maybe comes into your area once every few months, but will give you a plan of action to work on in between times. They know that you need to have a good understanding of what that work is, so they should make sure you are clear on that, and it gives you more control over what you are doing with your own horse.

this. or else finding someone who works for you and planning some overnighters with them. I know a lot of people who do that where I train, they come for one or 2 nights for a bit of an intensive blitz every 4-6 weeks or so. I guess it depends if you need your annual leave for other things (I only ever use it for horse stuff).